Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Pakistanis in the UK are far more segregated, that's the key issue here. This segregation began at a time when minorities had few rights, thus, you have the two extremes in terms of economic prosperity. When you live in an insular community, your prejudices, be they positive or negative, become self enforced. Extremists thrive in such environments.
This seems to be the most accurate theory. You have similar issues among blacks and hispanic's in the US. I think they call Ghetto-ization. In America they turn to gangs, in the UK they turn to relgious extremism.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
This seems to be the most accurate theory. You have similar issues among blacks and hispanic's in the US. I think they call Ghetto-ization. In America they turn to gangs, in the UK they turn to relgious extremism.
That's a great comparison. The reason white Americans/British are so alarmed by Muslim extremists though, is that their (the Muslims') anger is aimed at the country, instead of reforming the country. Black Americans, as much as they may go against upper class America, feel that America is their country. Their America is violent, and poverty stricken, but they feel as if it's theirs.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
This seems to be the most accurate theory. You have similar issues among blacks and hispanic's in the US. I think they call Ghetto-ization. In America they turn to gangs, in the UK they turn to relgious extremism.
The plight of blacks in the US is due to institunalized racism. In New York city about 80% of black males in the 15 to 40 age bracket have been frisked - for being black. One has been frisked 70 times.
Blacks are typically anti war. And they don't engage in terror.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
The plight of blacks in the US is due to institunalized racism. In New York city about 80% of black males in the 15 to 40 age bracket have been frisked - for being black. One has been frisked 70 times.
Blacks are typically anti war. And they don't engage in terror.
I agree.
However, Im not referring to terrorism among blacks Southie. Im talking about gang violence, crime rates, and imprisonment rates. Something it seems that is common to large minorities that end up in vastly minority only neighborhoods with high of poverty and unemployment.
On the issue of extremism, I think ultimately the reason Muslim youths turn to religious extremism and join extremist organizations is ultimately the same logic that drive blacks and hispanics to join gangs. Its a need to belong, it gives them meaning, fraternity... Whether its the Taliban or Al Aqeda, or the bloods or the crips, its essentially a yearning to be a part of something larger then you.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
That's a great comparison. The reason white Americans/British are so alarmed by Muslim extremists though, is that their (the Muslims') anger is aimed at the country, instead of reforming the country. Black Americans, as much as they may go against upper class America, feel that America is their country. Their America is violent, and poverty stricken, but they feel as if it's theirs.
Well, I think the Gangs give them an identity. Sure they consider America their home, but I would argue that the Gang members loyalty is stronger to ones Gang then ones nation. These people are willing to do the most horrendous crimes for the sake of their Gang. Someone willing to kill for cause puts that cause pretty high on their list of priorities. The Gangs are relatively small, their ambitions reflect their size.
The Muslim extremists belong to, at least in their minds, a much larger group, and since Islam is a global religion, so to is their ambition. So while a Gang in LA is only concerned with defending it members, and its neighborhood, Islamic extremists believe they are fighting not only for themselves but also for oppressed Muslims everywhere.
And as the America of Blacks and Hispanics is violent and poverty stricken, so to is the world of extremists. For them the violence and poverty exists not only in their own neighborhoods, but also among Muslims in other countries, and since the associate with Muslims everywhere, their gripe is with the condition of a far larger group.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
I agree.
However, Im not referring to terrorism among blacks Southie. Im talking about gang violence, crime rates, and imprisonment rates. Something it seems that is common to large minorities that end up in vastly minority only neighborhoods with high of poverty and unemployment.
On the issue of extremism, I think ultimately the reason Muslim youths turn to religious extremism and join extremist organizations is ultimately the same logic that drive blacks and hispanics to join gangs. Its a need to belong, it gives them meaning, fraternity... Whether its the Taliban or Al Aqeda, or the bloods or the crips, its essentially a yearning to be a part of something larger then you.
Re imprisonment rates the excessive surveillance - ed the frisking stats I gave - is indicative of different standards being applied to minoritiesx- blacks in particular. Different sentences for crack vs cocaine is one example. And once you go to jail it is kind of autocatalytic.
The gang part I don't know much about. I suspect if the govt does not consider prison system a growth industry and spends resources on the inner city issues things will turn around.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Re imprisonment rates the excessive surveillance - ed the frisking stats I gave - is indicative of different standards being applied to minoritiesx- blacks in particular. Different sentences for crack vs cocaine is one example. And once you go to jail it is kind of autocatalytic.
The gang part I don't know much about. I suspect if the govt does not consider prison system a growth industry and spends resources on the inner city issues things will turn around.
Its a vicious cycle. One problem is what the call the donut effect. As Whites began moving out of the cities during the mid century, they left a void to be filled by the minorities. Along with the Whites went much services, investment, capital etc, enriching the suburbs and outer edges, but leaving the central urban area vacant of resources. Hence, you have bad schools, unemployment etc. This creates crime, which creates a reaction among police forces, which foster mistrust and resentment, which creates more disillusionment, which produces an unfortunate cycle.
I think a similar thing might have occured among south Asians in the UK. in the case of the youth in those areas they associated more with religious organizations and invariably with the darker side.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Mumtaz Qadri who killed Salman Taseer in Pakisatn was a Barelvi.
and the whole lot of Pakistani lawyers showered him with flowers. How is that even relevant to what's being discussed here?
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Its a vicious cycle. One problem is what the call the donut effect. As Whites began moving out of the cities during the mid century, they left a void to be filled by the minorities. Along with the Whites went much services, investment, capital etc, enriching the suburbs and outer edges, but leaving the central urban area vacant of resources. Hence, you have bad schools, unemployment etc. This creates crime, which creates a reaction among police forces, which foster mistrust and resentment, which creates more disillusionment, which produces an unfortunate cycle.
I think a similar thing might have occured among south Asians in the UK. in the case of the youth in those areas they associated more with religious organizations and invariably with the darker side.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
They were brainwashed by some radical preacher from US, apparently. And didn't you hear about a Bengali American being arrested over terror plot in US few days ago? The presence of Al-Mahajroon in UK might be the reason for this but not sure???
I don't think modern education contributes much towards morality and values...we have seen some doctors and engineers going nuts too.
The Bangladeshi, like the rest was pushed by the FBI. Since 9/11 you will not find a case of domestic terrorism in the USA by Muslims except triggered by the FBI.
Why was their car bugged? (didn't bother to read article)
Was it a case of entrapment too?
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B’ham arrested for terror plot
There have been many reports for years that Pakistani people in the UK are more likely to be workless and claiming benefits. It has been discussed here before.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
The Bangladeshi, like the rest was pushed by the FBI. Since 9/11 you will not find a case of domestic terrorism in the USA by Muslims except triggered by the FBI.
Why was their car bugged? (didn't bother to read article)
Was it a case of entrapment too?
It's called giving them the rope to hang themselves.
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Ghettoism is certainly a major factor. From what I have seen the comparison of Brit Muslim ghettos and the American Black ghettos is quite apt though with many differences. However the one somewhat unique difference between the Brit or any Muslim group and anyother ghetti gang is that the Muslim group really believes they are waging a war per dictates of the religion whereas the black gang members know they are crooks
Re: 3 Brit Pakistanis from B'ham arrested for terror plot
Ghettoism is certainly a major factor. From what I have seen the comparison of Brit Muslim ghettos and the American Black ghettos is quite apt though with many differences. However the one somewhat unique difference between the Brit or any Muslim group and anyother ghetti gang is that the Muslim group really believes they are waging a war per dictates of the religion whereas the black gang members know they are crooks
I dont know if they know they are criminals. They may well feel that by doing what they do, they are taking what the society has deprived them off. It could be a way to rectify what they perceive to be an injustice. So when a Black kid sells drugs, he is doing so because he feels society conspires against him, and he is doing what he must to level the playing field... He didnt create the environment he was born into after all. Can you really blame him? When an idiot like Bush can become president, but a bright kid born in the ghetto see's nothing but dead ends, then something is obviously not right.
The rich steal Millions and Millions, and get rewarded for it. The poor steal a thimble, and go to prison.