Yah Anchal tau Islam ka pichay hath dhoh ker per gyeen haan
.
For STRONGMAN's du'a : Ameen.
Biggest problem with Muslims today: have no idea what Islaam is.
They think if Saudi Arabia calls its laws "Shari'i" (note they don't call it Shari'ah, just based upon it, and require Saudi pseudo-scholars to justify some of thier injustices), then IT MUST BE.
They think that Muslim culture (that found in countries with large Muslim populations) is the same as Islamic culture. The best example is Pakistan, the so-called 'home of the largest Muslim population in Asia' - which tries every once in a while to enforce "Shari'ah" although I doubt they have any idea what it is, or what it involves. I do not live in Pakistan, nor have I ever lived there for more than a few months at a time, even though I still call it home. So my knowledge is superficial. But from the remarks of the people in these discussions, I can see that ppl are rebelling from Islam because of what they see Muslims doing. It has little or nothing to do with their own research or rcognition of the true spirit of Islam.
And when someone (like Salafi and few others) point out that that (saudi arabia, iran, pakistan) is NOT what Islam is, even then people refuse to see the fact of the matter, since it serves the STATUS-QUO OF THEIR MIND. I use that word specifically, because Abdulmaleck used it to descirbe the 'backwardness' of Islam.
(side note: Abdulmaleck, such a nice name you have. But your thoughts do not reflect it's meaning i am afraid, why?)
In conclusion, any Muslim who thinks that the Shari'ah has no basis in Qur'an and Sunnah is mistaken, anyone who thinks that the Shari'ah that Muhammad(saw) and his rightly-guided Caliphs (raa) practised is outdated is mistaken, anyone who thinks we should follow the man-made secular laws of the 'modern' society without regard for their place in the greater picture of Islam, or that Islam needs to be revamped, re-thought, re-interpreted, or renovated, is clearly falling short in his/her knowledge of Islam (suggestion: pls. study Islam more), and is contradicting "this day have I perfected your religion for you and completed by Favour upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islaam..."
Muslims world-wide are in a crisis, and they like to blame their problems on Islam.
That's not where you should go for problems, that's where you go for answers! if you are not prepared for the truth, don't ask for it, coz it won't please you.
As for the rest of us who believe Allah(swt), who created us, knows us better than we could ever know ourselves, we follow the teachings and message of Islam by 'Aql and Naql, because surely Allah(swt) knows best and it is only His pleasure we are trying to seek. Compromise in THAT, is not something that is open for discussion.
Last note: If the Prophet(saw), or any of his Companions (raa), were present amongst us here today, they would be strangers and outcasts in this society (eastern or western). But as the Prophet (saw) has said, "Islam appeared as a stranger, and will return as a stranger, so give glad tidings to the strangers".
Allahu Akbar.
I choose to be a stranger.
[quote]
Originally posted by MTahaGhaznavi:
**
anyone who thinks that the Shari'ah that Muhammad(saw) and his rightly-guided Caliphs (raa) practised is outdated is mistaken **
[/quote]
Hello! The Shariah was developed LONG AFTER Muhammed died. It was developed by men who interpreted the Quran and the Sunnah and made it into laws. They interpreted it based on their own world-view and their own prejudices. Who can say that their interpretation is any better than a fresh interpretation would be right now in the present? The Shariah was not God-made, but man-made.
Zara
Shari'ah was man-made<
What do you call the laws that Prophet Muhammad(saw) applied in his 10 years in Madinah???
man-made?
if they were man-made, then everything we have in Islam, Qur'an and Sunnah included is man-made.
This is because how you pray comes from Shari'ah, how you bury someone comes from Shari'ah, how you get married comes from Shari'ah, how you educate your children comes from Shari'ah, and I could off course go on.
If all of this is man-made, then I suggest you get in touch with God and find out His NEW LAW for the 21st century since the old one seems to be outdated right?
I would also like to ask you what is the Shari'ah? what do you mean by it?
Shari'ah is not something etched in stone.
(in fact the word itself implies fluidness- flexibility, inclusivity but not compromise, abondenment)
It can be applied AS IS, in its entireity to any society, no matter what level of economic, spiritual, moral, intellectual development they are at.
That is what was done during the 10 centuries of growth of the relatively NEW Islamic civilization, with tremendous success.
Islam does not abolish the local customs, traditions, heritage, and national identity of the people, but brings them under the blanket of Shari'ah.
If you have EVER read a book on Shari'ah (I suggest one called 'Shariah: The Islamic Law' by Abdur Rahman I. Doi), then you will see that the Shari'ah forms the Islamic basis for all human morality and justice, individually and collectively.
I think most like to mouth-off the words Shari'ah is 'this' and 'that', without actually having ever even BROWSED through it.
It's just something that they THINK they know about, and hence can have an opinion on. (I would be the first to admit my knowledge is tertiary)
This word "RE-INTERPRET" for the modern times, is as good as saying we are not happy with what Allah(swt) has given us, coz it's too hard for us to implement today, so we are just going to go 'with the flow' instead of standing up for what is right and just.
Sign of weak Imaan. and time to RE-EVALUATE YOUR ISLAAM.
A weak, reluctant Muslim is worse than no Muslim, because a little knowledge is worse than ignorance, since one can be abused in favour of the other!
I don't know where ppl get this idea that the teachings of Qur'an and Sunnah, that together form the core of Shari'ah, are outdated.
are you saying marriage is outdated?
are you saying family values are outdated?
are you saying criminals no longer need to be punished?
are you saying the poor no longer need to be taken care of?
are you saying people no longer cheat, steal, rob, murder, rape, and deceive?
are you saying woman no longer get abused?
are you saying man no longer needs God to love, fear, thank, repent to, and ask help from?
are you saying a non-Muslim now deserves more respect, admiration, and authority over a Muslim than he did in the time of the Prophet(saw) because he is now richer, forms the majority, and can bomb your country into oblivion, but also helps an old lady across the street every once in a while and donates a $100 a year to the United Way fund, but goes home to an idol of a Prophet of God nailed to a cross with blood dripping from his wounds, believing that his blood-sacrifice has saved him from all of his own sins, and invents a lie against GOD? or a Muslim who commits petty crimes and wrongs his own soul, but regrets his actions since he knows them to be immoral and sets about to correct himself, having faith in God to set his on the straight path?
I would much rather be the latter who still has hope of returning to Islam as a repentant, humbled individual, than the former whose self-righteousness and delusion can continue unchecked.
I don't know why ppl run so eagerly to this 'modern' ideology of happiness as defined by what you have and unhappiness as what you could have had.
If you want to abonden Shari'ah then you have abondened Islam and freed yourself from any obligation to man (and hence God) because the Shari'ah is the ONLY authority that LASTS, government or no-government, East or West, year 630AD or 9756AD.
(subhanaka wa bihamdika la ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa utoobu ilaik)
Don't get all excited, MTahaGhaznavi, I'm sure no one is going to radically change the Shariah any time soon.
You say that I know nothing about the Shariah. Do you know that? You say that I have weak Iman. Do you know that? Instead of hurling accusations at me and getting all heated about what I'm saying, why don't you just read my post again.
Did I propose abolishing marriage? Punishment for criminals? No. I think that much of the Shariah was developed by specific people at a specific time, with a specific world view. There is no reason why the laws set by them must stand for all time. It is the Quran which stands for all time, not certain interpretations of it.
Zara
My dear friends,
1) Sharia'h was written by man or ulemas, based on Quran & sunnah, who wrote it for the time they lived in.
2) Allah speaks in similitudes, parables in the Quran; which means it is subject to interpretation.
3) Allah did his best - He sent his final & greatest prophet and, the Quran which is for all eternity.
4)But the solutions of all etermity are not ETCHED in black & white in the Quran, otherwise, the quran would still be being delivered and, it would be 100 miles thick.
5)The solutions lies in "how we interpret" the message or the Quran!
Here's what MTahaGhaznavi says about Sharia'h:
"Shari'ah is not something etched in stone.
(in fact the word itself implies fluidness, flexibility, inclusivity but not compromise, abondenment)"
Sharia'h implies flexibility or it should reflect time & place. Or, it should be subject to "re-interpretation", that is the only way it can be flexible & fluid. But Has it? The essential Sharia'h we use is the same that was used in the 7th century; the mere mention of the word "flexible & fluid" the meaning of the word Sharia'h and the mullahs & ulemas will be after you.
So, my dear friend to suggest a "FLEXIBLE SHARIA'H" is not going against Islam, rather, it is Islam - the message of all time & place.
To ZaraAtif:
Pls. qoute where I said "you know nothing about the Shari'ah", and if you can't find it, then pls apologize for misqouting me.
Pls. qoute where I said "YOU have weak Imaan" and if you can't find it, then kindly apologize for misqouting me.
Pls. qoute where I "hurled an accusation" at you personally, and if you can't find it, then you are at fault again.
As far as your point and my reply, I believe what I said what perfectly in order and directly related to what you said.
You said: "Shari'ah is not GOD-made, but MAN-made" (and I hope I have qouted you correctly).
And now you changed it to: "MUCH of the Shari'ah"... please make up your mind where all of it is man-made, most of it, or some of it.
You said there is no reason that "the laws set by them must stand for all time"...
to which I replied before you even asked.
Which of the laws do u think are NOT universal? murder, theft, marriage, human rights, trade, politics?
You said: "the Shari'ah was developed LONG AFTER Muhammad(saw)" to which I replied that it was the Prophet(saw) who "DEVELOPED" it and put it into practice DURING HIS LIFE, and it was not created in his absence. The Qur'an and Sunnah form the Shari'ah, and the Prophet(saw) followed both the Qur'an and Sunnah (by defintion).
You said: "the Qur'an stands for all time"
WRONG... Qur'an AND Sunnah stand for all time, let us not forget that we get the Qur'an from the same people who handed down the Sunnah to us, so if you wanna criticize the authenticity of one, then you are also criticizing the other!
You said that it is not "certain interpretations" of Qur'an that stand for all time, and I say WE DON'T NEED CERTAIN INTERPRETATIONS, we have THE interpretation of the Qur'an, the best and ONLY interpretation, it is called the SUNNAH.
So if you wanna develop a NEW interpretation for 'modern times' and you have no basis for it in the Sunnah, then you are also doing the same thing you are accusing the people of old of doing, i.e. interpreting for a specific time, place, world-view.
The fact of the matter is: the Shari'ah seems out of touch with 'reality' because the 'reality' we are living is not in accord with Shari'ah in the first place. By that I mean, for example, a "modern woman" who chooses to take up all the responsibilities of a male, while abondening her own (e.g. children being raised by babysitters and daycares instead of a loving mother), and who wants to be treated "equally" with her male counter-parts would offcourse feel "oppressed" if told that her witness in financial transactions counts as half that of a dumb, uneducated male!
Well, the problem is off course obvious. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You are either a man or a woman.
If a woman chooses to abonden her primary God-prescribed responsibilities and act in all the capactities of a man, then off course all the rules of men would apply to her. The same way if a man chooses act in all the capacities of a woman, and decides to not work and spend all his time raising his children, not engaging in business dealings, then his witness would be half that of a regular working man!
Now you are probably saying "but this is your own interpretation and surely nowhere in Shari'ah does it say that". And I say off course it doesn't say that, because the Shari'ah presents ONE SYSTEM, ONE METHODOLOGY, ONE SET OF RULES to be practised within that system.
So it is not the Shari'ah's job to present contingency plans (what-ifs) for situations such as the radical(and impractical) example I gave above.
Either you follow the Shari'ah completely or you don't at all, don't pick and choose certain rules (e.g. witnessing) when you are not following the precursor assumption of that rule (which is that the man is engaged in business, and the woman is not).
The point that I started with was that: the Shari'ah seems outdated only because society has developed outside of it (in the West AND East), and hence ppl feel the need to RE-INTERPRET it to reflect the current situation. This is just compromise, since we can't have the best thing (total Shari'ah law), we are just going to cut and paste the existing Shari'ah to "make-do" for now.
This is in essence changing the Shari'ah to suit us, rather than changing ourselves to match the Shari'ah.
Now, I would like to end with a final note that you still didn't answer my question "what is the Shari'ah you are talking about?", where do you find it?, are you talking about the Qur'an + Sunnah as Shari'ah (as I refer to it) or some ancient document that I don't know about. please clarify.
P.S. Just because we can't force our governments and politicians to adopt Shari'ah as the law of the land doesn't mean we can not, or should not, try to implement as much of it as we can individually and communally. We can worry about the smaller issues (e.g. where to put one's hands in prayer) in better times for the Muslim Ummah when we have sorted the bigger problems with us like sectarianism, corruption, poverty, and a million others. I am not undermining the importance of the smaller issues, but just saying that the Shari'ah is more than that, and can still play an important role for us even in our secular countries (which covers just about all of them!)
To LOGICAL:
I never said Shari'ah is static, or inflexible, or beyond change, BUT IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU WANNA CHANGE AND WHERE YOU WANT IT TO BE FLEXIBLE!!!
At it's core the Qur'an and Sunnah ARE etched in stone. The Qur'an is Allah's Will, Sunnah is the physical manifestation of that Will. That can not be changed. That is NOT open for interpretation. Otherwise, we'd need a new prophet every decade or so.
So the solution is NOT RE-INTERPRETATION, but a RETURN to it. I personally can't think of a single law that comprises Shari'ah that is no longer relevant or applicable, or holds us back, or is impractical for this time and place. I am sure you will suggest some.
The Shari'ah (in the greater sense of the word as 'law of land', not Qur'an and its interpretation=Sunnah)can be flexible in the sense that new laws are added as new situations arise, and laws that were put in place by Ijma/Qiyas may need to be corrected to better conform with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
But at no time should the CORE of Shari'ah be abrogated by this flexibility.e.g. no need for Hijaab anymore, outlawing ploygamy, replacing Zakat with income tax, accepting interest as a 'fact of life' and adopting it as a lawful activity eventhough we know it only enriches the rich (who lend) and impoverishes the poor (who borrow), etc.
Anyhow, I think we agree that Shari'ah is FLEXIBLE (otherwise the word is an oxymoron), although we may disagree on to what extent this flexibility is Halaal, and where we are delving into questionable matters.
Since I don't know what you would like changed in the Shari'ah as you see it, I hope I have not gotten myself into trouble by agreeing with you ! :)
You also mentioned "the Shari'ah that we USE"... who uses? I don't know any governments who use it, and the rules we Muslims live by are only a limited dimension of Shari'ah.
Another issue: "Mullahs & Ulemas"????
who are you talking about? I don't know any such Mullahs and Ulemas, and I prefer the term 'Ulema because I know Mullah is used to disrespectfully refer to some radical Muslim ppl in Pakistan, who no one likes. It's a shame that these so-called representatives of Islam have done so much damage to Islam, especially in Pakistan, although not all of them. These "Mullahs" prefer to talk about Shi'a and Sunni sectarian differences in Friday Khutbas and encourage the extremist types, instead of talking about the REAL day-to day issues facing the people like spousal abuse and child labour and bribery and corruption.
Back to the issue, all the "Ulemas" of today I know would NOT be repulsed by the mention of Shari'ah as flexible. I think the problem arises when people (maybe you yourself) have not been in contact with the right ppl,the Muslims who are TRULY fit to represent Islam, and who are not bogged down by culture and nationalism like the mullahs of Pak. (who were marching on the streets demanding a Nuclear test after India did so, where in Islam does it say that?)
So I hope Insha-Allah you meet some nice knowledgable Muslims who share your ideas and can help break the stereotype of Shari'ah being a 7th century antiquity.
As-Salaamu A'alaikum wa-Rahmatullah,
Taha.
Hi folks
I'm tired of this discussion. dont have much to say. But I do feel that in general muslim males are idiot when they talk about having more than one wife a time.
They just dont think about what happens to the kids. Its not much different than what people are doing in west, they change their sleeping partner just like underwears, only difference is that they dont sign a marriage contract every time they sleep with a new partner (this is because its expensive to sign a new contract).
Talk to you guys later, may be I'll contribute more, but not today.
Take care, with love
Yasin
Don't worry guys, i'll have more wives than him.
you guys want to know why a man can have four wives at a time??
Well here i am to tell you.
this "rule", if you may, came into existance
ont the time of war, where many men went off in the war and died. Their widows in those times had no one to take care of them, so the men who were left alive were given the right to amrry upto four women, to look after the women, provide for them and their children if they had any. Only if he could keep them all happy.
Now you guys take this lil thing blow it all out of proprotion, its just that simple. Now days guys just abuse that right, for theit own pleasure.
BRAIN:Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Totally agree with offdachain! This is the answer you all were looking for. So women, Allah revealed this verse for YOUR benefit, not men's! During the prophet's time, Allah revealed some verses due to the situation or when some people asked questions to the prophet. For eg.. some of the verses begin like, "They ask you,...."
Does anyone know how Allah communicated ? Was it a phone conversation or did Allah use the internet ? Did Allah frequently visit the earth in a Alien spacecraft ? If he did visit the earth, why did he stop visiting after 600 C.E ?
Akmed786,
If you are an Ahmadi then you should not be asking this question as according to your religion Allah communicated with your prophet as near as 50 years ago. Now either He communicated or your prophet is a liar. Now let us see the issue of four wives. First of all it is entirely upto the male to decide weather he can marry one, two, three or four momen at once. If he can support them equally and provide for them equally and give them equal time then there is no problem.
As far as the comment on love was made there is no rule that says the man has to love them all equally. It is not possible yet not required.
Also it is stressed that women who are widowed with orphans should be married or women who cannot marry because of looks or some other physical handicap should be married. There is no compulsion however into marrying a woman who is beautiful.
Now the most stupid question raised by Dhir was why 4 and why not 6 or 2. So can he explain why is there only 1 woman in Hinduism and why not 2? Why is it that the Hindu widow cannot marry?
Other objection was why can a woman not marry many men. Well let her marry a few guys and nobody will know whom the child is from. Imagine that. There are times when due to some problems like infertility a man marries another woman. Well again if the woman allows her husband then I don't think it is a big deal. If the woman cannot stand the presence of another woman she can ask for a divorce and marry someone else who believes in a single marriage. There is no compulsion for the woman not to marry another once divorced.
In the West men can have only one wife. How many sexual encounters do they have? 10-20-30 maybe more. So they can enjoy the carnal pleasures but will not take responsibility of the child they fathered. This is absolutely acceptable by the likes of Dhir, faceup, Logical and the our Westernized Paki females and males, but marrying more than one woman and providing her shelter and a name is corrupt and inhumane. The problem is most of us think we are smarter than Allah (asthagfirullah). I think followers of Khalifa Rashad and the rest of the Ahmadi and Imam's of all these sects should go ahead and give fatwa on single marriage and no-hijab. Nobody is stopping them. Majority of the girls in the Islamic world do not wear hijab in any case so Faceup and company should not be too distressed about it.
Again wearing Hijab is violation against women but posing nude in Playboy and Hustler is an expression of freedom.
What Al-Saud is doing is his personal matter and not recommended anywhere in Islam. Hazrat Ali's son, Hazrat Imam Hassan was known for marrying and divorcing wives to the point that Hazrat Ali even started asking people not to give their daughter's hand in marriage to Hazrat Hassan.
The point is that all these 120 or so women Saud is marrying out of the girls choice as well. He is not kidnapping them. If they don't have a problem with it why are the guppies having MIRCHAIN (Spices) over them.
Also if the guy is infertile the woman can divorce him and marry another. Islam does not disallow it.
Rational,
The rights of women you are talking about only exist in fairy tales. 99% of muslims women will never get a chance to excersize those rights.
Akmed99,
Why don't you strive for their rights then? Don't ignore the fact that they have the rights. I give my wife all the rights in Islam and I am commited to one wife alone as I am happier with her than I can be with anyone else.
So don't confuse the issue of rights and practice. Rights are given by Islam if they are not practiced it is not Islam's fault. We are discussing and analysing the consequences of more than one marriages here and not women's lib issues.
Rational,
What percentage of muslim women know what their rights are under Islam?
I do not think the concern here is for the women who are well-off, educated and of liberal background. It's the uneducated, poor & rural women - the vast majority that are under pressure.
The thread:FATWA:KILL THEM! KIDAP & FOCIBLE MARRY THEM, talks about the threats women face in educating other women. Could you read the thread and tell us your opinion.
Believe me, the picture is not different in most othodox muslim societies.
Abdulmalick,
I agree with you 100%. Illiteracy is our worst enemy. Actually more than illeteracy it is the unawareness of the religion that has brought us to the brink of destruction. I feel the onus lies squarely on our shoulders to spread the true religious beliefs and not hearsay. As you must have noticed that some of the educated girls on the net are against the idea, actually they are appaled by it. So really literacy and true religious education is the need of the hour. Rather than blaming religion we need to work on understanding it. That is the point I am trying to make.
Regards
Rational,
I am talking about real world. The question ultimately is about implementation not philosophical bullshit! The equality you are talking about is practiced (by law) for most part in the west.
Seriously, you think a middle class woman in Pakistan will have the courage to dump her infertile husband and find another one as she wishes ??????????????????
Quit living in a fool's paradise.
[This message has been edited by Akmed786 (edited August 31, 2000).]
Akhmed,
Middle class urban women are quite capable in Pakistan provided they are educated and have money. Pakistan being 'not entirely' islamic state also helps in that regards!
It's the poor, uneducated that either do not understand their rights per islam or, those rights are denied them!
Rational - I've noticed orthodox muslim women do tend to side with their male counterparts to keep them suppressed or with unequal tights. They tend to be sold on the idea that males should have more rights!