It's not very often that you hear a non-ahmadi encourage fellow non-ahmadis to stop looking for differences and discriminating against a minority community.
This is a time when the Muslim Ummah needs to unite. ...
You are welcome naqsa. Yes it is time Pakistan improve its record on treating minorities.
However I urge you to quit hammering this "Muslim Ummah" thingy. It is the very concept of Muslim Ummah these days that empowers extremists among Muslims. These extremists then go on to commit horrible atrocities against minorities.
Just remember a united umma will be the most terrible news for the minorities. Haven't you heard of "ministry of vice and virtue" in Islamic Jannat of Iran? The destruction of Bamyan statues, persecution of minorities, the yellow star for Hindus? How many examples do you need Naqsa?
These days any entity formed on religious basis finds it very difficult to be tolerant. Yes there are examples out there but the bad religious apples far outweigh the good ones.
When I speak of unity in the Muslim Ummah I don't envision a group of people who exercise their power in an unjust manner. That's not what Islam teaches us.
I do recognize the various extremist organizations you mentioned and their negative use of the term UNITY.
Ahmadi Muslims have a far better ideology of UNITY in Islam. It's about taking the message of The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and spreading it in the world but NEVER imposing it. The Holy Quran says there is no compulsion in religion!!!
The time when people were converted through the power of swords is long gone. According to the Promissed Messiah (a.s.), now is a time that swords be replaced with pens. If Islam is to be spread, it will now be done through writing not fighting!! That's one of the differences between US and the other sects in Islam.
Ahmadi Muslims have a far better ideology of UNITY in Islam. .....
(side note) When I speak of unity in the Muslim Ummah I don't envision a group of people who exercise their power in an unjust manner. .......
naqsa. Would you please quit this "Mine is bigger than thine" sermons? We already have too many sects claiming the same thing.
FYI. Ahmadia community is just like the fellow non-Ahmadia Pakistanis. No better no worse. They are as middle class as any other middle class Pakistani. So please leave this I am superior attitude home. Otherwise you will be at the receiving end of criticism (and in some cases a lot worse). Enjoy your life, and stop proselytizing. Thank you.
p.s. You are confusing the term "Uniting Islamic Ummah" and "expanding Islamic Ummah". Unity means to gather together "current" Muslims under one banner. Whereas "expanding Ummah" means converting others who are not part of your faith.
So if there is no Nabi/rasool to come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW then what will be the status of Hazrat Isa if he appears and breaks the cross and kill the swine ????
Please also elaborate this verse of the Holy Qur'an "kullu nafsin zaiqa til moat" in this regard.
I have a collection of stories about what happened to Isa (AS) ... some people say he went to India, others say he married Mary Magdalene and has a progeny in southern France.
Isa (AS) will be of the status of Khaliph, but we will respect him and honour him as a prophet of Allah (SWT). His return will make him an Ummati subject to Islam established by Muhammad (SAW), but his title of Masih and his status as prophet will not be changed in status but will not be prevalent in function.
The key concern Muslims have is not about whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is breaking the edict of finality due to his appearance after Muhammad (SAW) rather it is because he is a separate being from Isa (AS) who was born from different parents who is making the claim of being Isa (AS). This claim is refined by saying that Masih is a title that passes to chosen people, but this lays the groundwork for breaking the secondary requisite which is finality of prophethood.
1) Mirza Ghulam Ahmed could not have been Isa (AS) because Isa (AS) had different parents
2) In order to get around number 1) by claiming Masih to be a cloak that is passed on, makes it definite that prophethood finality is not being adhered to by the Ahmadis.
3) Finality is argued as Seal i.e. authentic or greatest but not as last
4) Furthermore when Isa (AS) does come back Ahmadis use the argument against us about finality of prophethood, but this is a red-herring argument, because the status of Isa (AS) is not important when he comes back. The important matter is that HE HIMSELF will come back and not someone is born to other parents.
It is not to say finality is not important ... it is !!! But first we need to establish whether hadith states Masih is a title or not that can be passed on and for that matter Isa (AS) to return does not mean for him to literally return, but only metaphorically. When this claim can be substantiated then it will be time to talk about the aspect of finality.
Ismailis are a part of the shia sect and thus are considered muslims, Ahmedis aren't a part of either sect afaik.
Peace abdelyuuki
What sort of logic is that? Ahmadis are essentially Hanafi and most of their outwardness resembles Pakistani Muslim majority. They can be just as much a sect as Ismailis are. In fact one part closer to the orthodoxy than Ismailis.
If this is a question you want me to respnd to, please clarify who you are referring to.
I don't understand why you are putting conditions in order to reply to a question regarding basic principles.
God sends His prophet to guide people, and people reject him, call him liar, and stick to what their elders had been doing. So what should we say about such people?
A person who calls him liar is the person who has rejected God's command. Such a person should not be termed a blessed person. Quran condemns such people in its several verses. For example people like Yahood and Nasara who rejected the True Prophet of Islam.
This is not a tricky question. A simple question based on principles, not on personalities.
So if Hazrat Isa is to RETURN HIMSELF an not born to other parents then the qur'anic verse is na'auzbillah wrong or what ???? "kullu nafsin zaiqa til moat" !!!!
If Hazrat Isa was what the Holy Qur'an discribes him to be then he is dead and burried or isn't he ?
Did he survived the crucifixtion ? if yes what happend afterwards?
Leave aside Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani for a moment and simply reply to me with qur'anic reference please.
So if Hazrat Isa is to RETURN HIMSELF an not born to other parents then the qur'anic verse is na'auzbillah wrong or what ???? "kullu nafsin zaiqa til moat" !!!!
If Hazrat Isa was what the Holy Qur'an discribes him to be then he is dead and burried or isn't he ?
Did he survived the crucifixtion ? if yes what happend afterwards?
Leave aside Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani for a moment and simply reply to me with qur'anic reference please.
Peace Zero_one
Muslims believe that Isa (AS) will die but is not dead yet. Therefore the ayat that you have given is not being contradicted.
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Muslims believe that Isa (AS) will die but is not dead yet. Therefore the ayat that you have given is not being contradicted.
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
so is it fair to say that anyone who survived an attempt on their life at some point in their life is still alive?
How do you establish the fact that he is still alive?
According to the Islamic view, Jesus never died, nor cruicified but was raised alive with his body up the heavens around the age of 32/33 (reference about age: various ahaadeeth) and will return at the end of time and complete the Prophecy of the Quran where it mentions that he (AS) will speak to people in KAHOOLAT, which is only attained at the age of 40 as per the dictionary meaning in Arabic…
Why would Quran SPECIFICALLY and CATEGORICALLY tell us that Isa (AS) will talk to people at the mature age? Does not everyone speak in kahoolat - the mature age?
Two references from Quran about the mentioning of Kahoolat:
3:46] “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity [Kah’La]. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
This following ayah is in the context that Allah will say such on the day of judgement
5:110] Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity [Kah’La]. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’
Burqaposhx, I am entitled to having my own opinion and so are you. .....
Yes indeed. You are "entitled" to have your opinion. That was just an advice from someone who has studied, and understands Ahmadia teachings very well.
The whole premise of such an advice is based on "live and let live". But if you are out there to score some points on Ahmadia beliefs or evangelize on behalf of someone, then you may be mistaken. There are much bigger and more vicious evangelicals among Muslims, and Ahmadia madhab doesn't stand a chance.
Tolerance and acceptance is the way to go for ordinary bunch in Pakistan. And that tolerance and acceptance has to come from both sides of Ahmadia-Muslim debate.
The person who is coming will come as a follower of the best Mentor (Peace be upon them)
The best Mentor has died and his life is complete as is his mission
The person who is coming (Masih Ibn Maryam (AS)) is still alive and needs to die to complete his life.
The second part of his mission is also still pending. In fact the pending status of the mission of Masih is prevalent even to the Ahmadiyya community, because until the world becomes Muslim according to Ahmadiyya belief the status of Khilfahtul Masih will continue thus fulfilling the scriptural condition that all will become Muslim at the hands of the Masih. This type of interpretive acrobatics is rejected by mainstream Muslims.
The hadith states the second coming of Isa (AS) it is not a matter of using logic why this and why that … Why was not Muhammad (SAW) sent at the beginning of mankind for that reason … you can ask any question but you have to be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot regarding your own stance, in the process.
The answer to the question did Isa (AS) survive? The answer partly rests in previous scripture.
“For he shall give his angels charge concerning thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up on their hands, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone”
This was understood as a criterion for the proof of the claim of Isa (AS) that he would survive. The idea that he (AS) was taken up rests in hadith and in various references in the Bible too. I am only selecting those parts of the New Testament that are compatible with the hadith. If you read some apocryphal books such as Gospel of Barnabas you see more information that lends to this idea too.
What bro AQ has said in the previous post also lends to this idea.
