let me ask you the question again in case you missed:
Why would Quran SPECIFICALLY and CATEGORICALLY tell us that Isa (AS) will talk to people at the mature age? Does not everyone speak in kahoolat - the mature age?
maybe because Allah knew that muslims would fall prey to the false notion that Jesus was raised up to heaven. Now tell me how does he speaking in kahoolat prove that he is still alive. It would be true if you established first that he was raised to the heaven before he reached the age of kahoolat and thus needs to come back to fulfill that word of the Qura'an. But you have not established it. First prove that he was raised up to the heaven before the age of kahoolat. If you do so i'll accept this point that he needs to come back in order to prove that the word of the Qur'an is true.
Peace chacha_Ghalib
Firstly, I present to you the question that AQ has asked:
After surviving the crucifixion where did he (AS) go? There is no evidence to the claim within scripture that he survived and continued an Earthly existence. There are some reports now circulating of him going to France so which was it?
It is important to cite previous scripture to answer the question of evidence. I'll explain why I am using the Bible references extensively, later in this reply.
Now rather let me allude you to Mirza Tahir Ahmad in his book has written "Christianity a journey from Facts to Fiction". On page 91 in footnotes 2 and 3. After stating that Matthew and John are silent on the issue of Ascension Mirza Tahir Sahib notes the places where the Bible DOES talk about the Ascension. Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:51.
(It may be worth noting here that the language of the Bible in Matthew begins to bend towards some sort of rising. The rising here alludes to "rising from the dead", but it could just as well be an allegory in my understanding to "being taken away from the spiritually dead people" Jesus (AS) would thus be rising from the dead in his Ascension. It is also a fact that Ascension is a talking point in John 20:17 Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' - so it seems Mirza Tahir Sahib may have been mistaken that John is silent on this issue).
Mark's version says (16:19) , "And so the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, as taken up into heaven; there at the right hand of God he took his place"
Luke 24:51 "Now as he blessed them, he withdrew from them and was carried up to heaven"
Even though Matthew does not specifically talk of the Ascension it does come to a sudden end where the reader is not exactly left wondering. It is implied in the text that he is going. In Matthew however, the descension is talked about. Go to Mat 24:29-31 "...and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven") So all the 4 gospels DO acknowledge that Jesus (AS) will be living a miraculous existence.
In Mark 9:1 It states, "And he said to them, 'In truth I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.'"
Can it be possible that Jesus (AS) was talking about himself? The Kingdom of God is Islam fully established. It means that Jesus (AS) would return some time after the advent of Muhammad (SAW).
There are many references of the Son of man coming in glory supported with angels in the Bible and this picture is very important. Remember it!
Read also John 16:16 all the way through to 33 ... He Jesus (AS) mentions that he is speaking clearly He will go to the Father. Not die but "go" ... and he also mentions that he will be seen again.
Now go to Acts 1:1 through to 1:11
It talks about an actual ascension and then two men in white and a statement by them, they said, "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way as you have seen him go to heaven."
This is a direct reference to Ascension and Descension and it is the common belief of the sincere Christians.
Now look at The Gospel of Barnabas. The last verse in Chapter 221 ... "Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven."
Now read this hadith:
Allah's Apostle(SAW) said:
Allah will send Maseeh ibne Maryam (Messiah son of Mary). Thus he will descend near the White Eastern Minaret of Damascus, clad in two yellow sheets, leaning on the shoulders of two angels.
(Sahih Muslim, Vol. 8, P. 192-193)
There are more references than just these regarding descension of Isa (AS).
Here is the reason why I have given so much from the Christian scriptures and missed many other references out. I wanted to demonstrate that it was an established belief by the Christians that Jesus (AS) has ascended. In addition there is another established belief by the Christians that Isa (AS) had died on the cross.
This is the role of the Qur'an now ... With the knowledge that Christians believed in the Ascension at the time of Muhammad (SAW) and they believed in the crucifixion event, why is it that the Qur'an clearly states that he was NOT crucified but yet he "was taken up" WITHOUT clarifying that taken up is NOT ascension? Both are established beliefs but one is being rejected whereas the other is left in tacit agreement. There is tacit agreement in the Qur'an with the Bible regarding the issue of Ascension, whereas there is conflict with regards to crucifixion. This is evidence from the Qur'an that he has ascended.
Now you are probably going to refute with one of two ayahs from the Qur'an. So I will save you the hastle.
1) The verse that refers to prophets dieing before hand.
003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
Here you are likely to say ALL prophets but that will be incorrect.
2) The verse that refers to people believing in "him" (Isa (AS)) before his (i.e. their own or his (AS))'s death.
004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
According to the scholars there is difference of opinion as to whom the {his} refers to. If it refers to Isa (AS) then the whole ayah should be treated as a prophetic statement for sometime in the future. If it refers to each person then people have asserted that it could mean each member of the People of the Book is made aware of their error regarding Isa (AS) on the point of their death. In both cases it does not and cannot infer Jesus (AS) has died past tense.
Your use of the references from the bible would be correct except for two reasons:
1- The passages you cite from the bible of Jesus ascending to the heaven refer to the time after him being put on the cross. The people who say they saw him ascending to the heaven also say they saw him rising from the dead. If they saw him ascending to the heaven before being put on the cross then it would be acceptable to use that as an argument in favor of your view. Where does your view that he ascended to the heaven before being put on the cross come from?
2- Your inference that there were two misconceptions among christians namely the ascension and death on the crucifix and since Qura'an has clarified one and not the other therefore we can say that they were right in the other one is also incorrect. If we are to take your word on the matter then not only is the ascension not clarified but all the matters related to events after the crucifixion are also not clarified. Moreover, such an argument would be taken only if Qura'an was silent on the matter of Jesus' death which it is not. Again, I will wait for you and others in favor of your view to prove that Jesus is still alive and provide evidence in favor of their views before i give evidence from the Qura'an, the hadith, the sayings and conduct of sahaba and the sayings of pious people from other periods proving that Jesus died long time ago. No other human's death is mentioned as often as that of Jesus in the Qur'an. But i'll give the reasons for such repetition later.
in order to answer that, I am still waiting a response from anyone about my query so I can understand what makes you think it's not true:
What makes us think it is not true? because God says 'kullu nafsin zaaiqatul mout' meaning everyone shall taste death and God also says that you'll not see a change in the sunnah of Allah. So unless you can prove that there is one human being who got an unusually long life and was taken up to heaven when no other person was, we will believe the word of Allah that Jesus has died like all other humans. For now the onus of proof is upon those who think that Jesus is still alive and was taken to the heaven. At the moment we do not have to show any proof to counter that claim. For once, we are asking the non-ahmadis to back up their own belief before they come attacking ours. I will inshaAllah give proof for our beliefs once you have laid out every supporting ayah and hadith for your claim.
Peace Zero_one
Your references are in verse 75 and 144 for us. Here is the difference in the two ayats that you are missing and there is an error in the translation you have given above in the verse from Surah Aal-e-Imran.
First of all the translation in the second given verse says "all" messengers this is incorrect.
Secondly the contexts of the two verses are different. Before the verse with Muhammad (SAW) name it talks about Jihad and the verse before Isa (AS) it talks about not worshipping God as a Trinity.
The mortality of Jesus (AS) is thus a fact but it does not say that he has died, it says OTHERS LIKE him have died.
The verse with Muhammad (SAW) actually states that IF MUHAMMAD (SAW) would die then ... such and such.
In other words the verse with Isa (AS) is stating despite him not being dead others like him have died and implicity he too will die. There is no clear indication to say that he has died, just like there is an indication that he used to eat food.
Your logical argument about Muhammad (SAW) versus Isa (AS) is not logical at all. Muhammad (SAW) had completed his mission and Isa (AS)'s mission is still pending. With numberous hadith on this topic to this extent it becomes clear what you represent.
But the exact same word is used in both ayahs so in the one instant you translate it as all prophets before Jesus have died but when the same word is used for Hazrat Muhammad(saw) you translate it as every other prophet before him except Jesus has passed away. I have an answer for that as well but i'll patiently wait.
Now have you laid out all the proofs you have? If not, then lets see them. If yes, then so far i see one ayah provided by AQ which offers no support to the claim that Jesus was bodily raised up to the heaven and is still alive and an inference from the Bible which is based on the same body of text which established the notion of salvation for the Christians. Moreover such an inference is against the words of the Qura'an as i shall demonstrate once you concede that you have no more proofs to offer.
