Zimbabwe had its general and Presidential elections 10 days ago and still no results as Mugabe try and kling to power.
Of course, Mbeki, the ANC and the rest of Africa remains quite while the despot defies democratic laws.
The only time I will KNOW that Mugabe has relinguised power will be when Mugabe is out of Zimbabwe because the stupid South African government has given him asilum…as if we don’t have enough murderers in the country by now.
Re: Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe had its general and Presidential elections 10 days ago and still no results as Mugabe try and kling to power.
Of course, Mbeki, the ANC and the rest of Africa remains quite while the despot defies democratic laws.
The only time I will KNOW that Mugabe has relinguised power will be when Mugabe is out of Zimbabwe because the stupid South African government has given him asilum....as if we don't have enough murderers in the country by now.
The Old Man: From what I've heard on the news here, the conditions in Zimbabwe are really bad. Why is there no popular uprising against the Mugabe Regime especially now after the elections? For that matter, a number of Zimbabweans have to come to South Africa to buy basics. Isn't there any pressure on the South African government to act/ say something due to pressure from its population based on sympathy for the Zimbabwean people?
Re: Zimbabwe
From what I've heard on the news here, the conditions in Zimbabwe are really bad.
The conditions is extremely bad. It is estimated that 4 million Zimbabweans left the country for neiighbouring countries in order to stay alive. In South Africa we have an estimated 2½ million Zimbabweans ILLEGALLY. The border is almost non-existent.
With an inflation of about 150 000% it means a bread will cost you the afternoon double what it did the morning and again double tomorrow morning. The shelves are basically empty of essential stuff and where available, too expensive for anyone to buy. A teacher gets less than 5% of what they earn in South Africa when taking the Rand currency as basis.
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Why is there no popular uprising against the Mugabe Regime especially now after the elections?
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Mugabe has a stranglehold with his police and military and accepts NO dissention. Jails are places where you die. The government has NO regard for the courts and frequently ignore rulings. Because of Mugabe's stranglehold over the rural chiefs, the only uprising that may occur will be in the cities.
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Isn't there any pressure on the South African government to act/ say something due to pressure from its population based on sympathy for the Zimbabwean people?
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Mbeki refuse to listen to anyone when the issue is Zimbabwe. Does seem as if the rest of the ANC slowly are coming around though.
Africa's problems stem from their standpoint that Africa is the only one that can solve its problems and the rest of the world should stay out of African politics. Unfortunately the African Union has no teeth, consist of too many countries with internal conflict and debt, that it can't act. Furthermore, Africans have traditionally a high regard for elders and elder statement will never be reprimanded or opposed in any way. The only person to take some of the despots of Africa to task was Mandela, but he was/is an exceptional man.
Africa want no outside influence but request the Western world to give money as charity. In order to get it, they will play on the Western countries emotions about how many are dying, refer to their colonization as the the start of Africa's evils, and their guilt about slavery. Very similar as to how the Jews have been playing the Holocaust card in order to have the Western world toe their wills.
Lately China has been very much active in Africa and they do not meddle in politics as the Western world. Normally the Western world request proper financial control, democracy, no exploitation of workers, no slave and child labour, rebuke dictators that run their country down the drain, etc. China just want raw materials and a place to download some of their citizens. Africa will one day find out that it has become a slave of another kind.
Re: Zimbabwe
Africa want no outside influence but request the Western world to give money as charity. In order to get it, they will play on the Western countries emotions about how many are dying, refer to their colonization as the the start of Africa's evils, and their guilt about slavery. Very similar as to how the Jews have been playing the Holocaust card in order to have the Western world toe their wills.
Lately China has been very much active in Africa and they do not meddle in politics as the Western world. Normally the Western world request proper financial control, democracy, no exploitation of workers, no slave and child labour, rebuke dictators that run their country down the drain, etc. China just want raw materials and a place to download some of their citizens. Africa will one day find out that it has become a slave of another kind.
Well the reason Africa is in this mess is due to the Western World. After all the West used money, arms and mercenaries to fight wars in African countries that had no reason to exist. They actively supported and funded White Apartheid South Africa. They supported dictators and armed militias in African countries to counter "communism" and they propped up military dictators for their own interests.
One speaks of blood diamonds and the rest. But what of the US and EU companies that operate in these areas using people as slave labor and destory the natural environment in the African states. For 30 odd years the West used Africa as a strip mine and a dumping ground for toxic chemicals. They actively messed with local politics and gave money and support to ruthless butchers.
I highly doubt they had a change of heart in the past 10 years. And democracy...what a load of crap. You and I both know old man, that the US government with the support of the EU has actively funded and supported many of the brutal dictators in Africa.
Re: Zimbabwe
Well the reason Africa is in this mess is due to the Western World.
Partly true. The biggest mistake Europe made was dividing the continent into various countries while the nomadic ebb-and-flow of the African tribes still needed to sort themselves out. Africa is presently divided into countries existing of more than one tribe - and the strongest always rule while trampling on minorities. The one country without a majority group is South Africa.
Africa was during the colonial days and now not ready for democracy. They are still in the "king" phase of their development. The exiting kings were dethroned/replaced with European kings and past colonianism, are just replaced with dictators. In Africa, the strongest will rule - still very much Jungle politics.
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But what of the US and EU companies that operate in these areas using people as slave labor and destory the natural environment in the African states. For 30 odd years the West used Africa as a strip mine and a dumping ground for toxic chemicals. They actively messed with local politics and gave money and support to ruthless butchers.
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Nothing will change exept that the US and EU companies will be replaced by Chinese exployters. Pity Africa for being the world's woman to rape.
BTW- good to see you back :)
Re: Zimbabwe
What I would like to know is why African Union or the rest of the world (EU and US etc) not taking up a stronger interest in this matter against Mugabe's outright atrocities?
Compare how they reacted with Kenya situation and Zim situation.
just today I read 60 white farmers forcefully evicted from their farms. They left with just the clothes on their backs because Mugabe's party incited war veterans that once they lose the elections, the white farmers will reclaim their farms.
Re: Zimbabwe
Well the reason Africa is in this mess is due to the Western World. After all the West used money, arms and mercenaries to fight wars in African countries that had no reason to exist. They actively supported and funded White Apartheid South Africa. They supported dictators and armed militias in African countries to counter "communism" and they propped up military dictators for their own interests.
One speaks of blood diamonds and the rest. But what of the US and EU companies that operate in these areas using people as slave labor and destory the natural environment in the African states. For 30 odd years the West used Africa as a strip mine and a dumping ground for toxic chemicals. They actively messed with local politics and gave money and support to ruthless butchers.
I highly doubt they had a change of heart in the past 10 years. And democracy...what a load of crap. You and I both know old man, that the US government with the support of the EU has actively funded and supported many of the brutal dictators in Africa.
Lets not forget the chinese, indian and pakistan corporations who also aided and abetted in the above practices . However, how long has Zimbawe held under black rule? Thirty plus years. and to still blame if only on the west. I suppose scapegoating todays issues in africa is easier then realization with colonialism much was introduced which benefitted africa and today farms aplenty like those in zimbabwe lay dormant , untouched where before they were prosperous brining wealth to owners and a decent livelyhood for the majority of its citizens. SOuth Africa has a very sad history , but today it has an opportunity to be better then it is if it's leaders actually cared about south africa instead of their own bellies.
*I do believe reading an article few years back that it was a pakistany national who was prosecuted for his involvement with BCCI who also would carry breifacases of money to mugabe. so , my point is , it ain't only the west. *
Re: Zimbabwe
Pakistan and India have no corporations in Zimbabwe, secondly they did not have the money nor the resources to fund dictators. Also lets not forget Mugabe was a very popular leader for the past 20 years. He was the main man to get Zimbabwe its independence from an semi-apartheid regime. He was popular until this whole mess. Though like most meglomaniacs he does not wish to relinquish power.
The Chinese involvement in Africa started in 2001. From 1950 to 2000, it was all Western companies. Secondly India, Pakistan and China do not have the money to fund these wars and dictators.
Are you seriously saying that colonialism had positive aspects for Africa? Really? Say that to an African and lets see how they react.
As for Zimbabwe. As the old man knows, there were no ATMs in Zimbabwe in the 80s and 90s. Secondly the cheque system would not work for denominations larger than a certain amount. Just like in the US you can not transfer more than 10,000 dollars without some bank inquiry or the US government checking to see what is going on.
Old man, The Chinese do just as bad as the West did in Africa. But one thing I do give them credit for, they do not mess with local politics. They do not fund local wars. They do not fund armies to fight in other countries for economic resources.
As always Old man its good to see you alive and kicking. Goochy's board seems to be dead and everybody has split up now. Plus you know me I show up for a short period and stir up some trouble and disappear when I get bored. But since I am back in Africa, I may go south and see you. Cat-woman has demanded I come and visit so I might see you!
Re: Zimbabwe
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Originally Posted by CM
Well the reason Africa is in this mess is due to the Western World.
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It has become a fashion to blame the west for everything that is going wrong anywhere in the world. Even if something goes wrong in SA, people blame the west for the same. I think it is time, people take ownership for their own countries and act accordingly...
Re: Zimbabwe
Simplyme do you realise that every single African nation that exists is unnatural? These nation states have split tribes and communities more than 1000 years old and now they are forced to live on different sides of an artificial border?
You say take ownership of their own countries. But these aren't their countries. If you take tribes as countries, You have African tribes that live in both Sudan, Libya and Chad. They care nothing for their artificial national identity. They care about their tribal and historic identity. That is why Darfur is such a mess.
Re: Zimbabwe
Are you seriously saying that colonialism had positive aspects for Africa? Really? Say that to an African and lets see how they react.
Actually there were many advantages. Before colonialism there did not exist African states below the Sahara desert. Few if any had writing and arithmetic. No regard was shown for their past by maintaining their heritage other than in folk-tales and stories. Almost no cities were build. Etc.
Some of Zimbabweans are openly saying they had it better under the racist regime of Ian Smith. In South African newspapers many "black" people are also starting to point to what they lost since Apartheid due to bad service delivery and corruption.
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Old man, The Chinese do just as bad as the West did in Africa. But one thing I do give them credit for, they do not mess with local politics. They do not fund local wars. They do not fund armies to fight in other countries for economic resources.
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The Chinese are not in Africa for humanitarian purposes. They need raw material. With their own track record at home they will never be able to comment on bad governing practices anyway.
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But since I am back in Africa, I may go south and see you. Cat-woman has demanded I come and visit so I might see you!
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Where in Africa are you presently hanging out?
Re: Zimbabwe
Simplyme do you realise that every single African nation that exists is unnatural? These nation states have split tribes and communities more than 1000 years old and now they are forced to live on different sides of an artificial border?
You say take ownership of their own countries. But these aren't their countries. If you take tribes as countries, You have African tribes that live in both Sudan, Libya and Chad. They care nothing for their artificial national identity. They care about their tribal and historic identity. That is why Darfur is such a mess.
You make a correct observation about natural tribal and artificial national identities. There are pots of simmering hatred which can be ready to explode given just the right fuel.
However, in Tanzania, they have over 120 tribes but with the most minimum of tribalistic tendencies. The Tanzanians are more nationalistic in their outlook. Perhaps due to Socialism that Julius Nyerere introduced straight after independence. The country lagged behind initially but now that it has caught up, they have the advantage over neighbouring countries in that they have managed to contain tribalism.
Re: Zimbabwe
Actually there were many advantages. Before colonialism there did not exist African states below the Sahara desert. Few if any had writing and arithmetic. No regard was shown for their past by maintaining their heritage other than in folk-tales and stories. Almost no cities were build. Etc.
Some of Zimbabweans are openly saying they had it better under the racist regime of Ian Smith. In South African newspapers many "black" people are also starting to point to what they lost since Apartheid due to bad service delivery and corruption.
The Chinese are not in Africa for humanitarian purposes. They need raw material. With their own track record at home they will never be able to comment on bad governing practices anyway.
Where in Africa are you presently hanging out?
Currently in Darfur, Sudan. Doing my bit to make the world a better place.
But here is the problem with that. The nation state system was imposed on the rest of the world via colonialism. While I am proud Pakistani and love my homeland, the concept of a nation state is as Pakistani as are French fries. The nation state as a model as shown to be a failure with the EU and ASEAN. It was a concept that people imposed on Asia and Africa.
I would personally different on writing and maths, simply because that was evident before when slavery was common or when traders from around the world arrived. Though I will agree that writing as a form to maintain society and history was new to the region.
No cities were built, but cities are hardly a sign of true development. Basically what is being described is how the West defined "civilization" and it was applied to Africa. Frankly if people think that being treated like animals was great if that means they had food, I think they have a few screws loose. Colonialism has a very strong racist under-current as was the second most important reason for colonialism after economic demands.
Its an issue of a glass house and stones. The simple issue is they don't care. They do not want to be meddlesome. The country can do whatever it wants the people can do what they want, the Chinese just want business. Its a farcry from the EU and US using the famine in Malawi to make money and fight over GMO food products.
The west has been meddlesome since day one. The desire or will by the Chinese is not there.
Re: Zimbabwe
Pakistan and India have no corporations in Zimbabwe, secondly they did not have the money nor the resources to fund dictators. Also lets not forget Mugabe was a very popular leader for the past 20 years. He was the main man to get Zimbabwe its independence from an semi-apartheid regime. He was popular until this whole mess. Though like most meglomaniacs he does not wish to relinquish power.
The Chinese involvement in Africa started in 2001. From 1950 to 2000, it was all Western companies. Secondly India, Pakistan and China do not have the money to fund these wars and dictators.
Are you seriously saying that colonialism had positive aspects for Africa? Really? Say that to an African and lets see how they react.
As for Zimbabwe. As the old man knows, there were no ATMs in Zimbabwe in the 80s and 90s. Secondly the cheque system would not work for denominations larger than a certain amount. Just like in the US you can not transfer more than 10,000 dollars without some bank inquiry or the US government checking to see what is going on.
Old man, The Chinese do just as bad as the West did in Africa. But one thing I do give them credit for, they do not mess with local politics. They do not fund local wars. They do not fund armies to fight in other countries for economic resources.
As always Old man its good to see you alive and kicking. Goochy's board seems to be dead and everybody has split up now. Plus you know me I show up for a short period and stir up some trouble and disappear when I get bored. But since I am back in Africa, I may go south and see you. Cat-woman has demanded I come and visit so I might see you!
Actually if you read about BCCI your eyes will be wide open.
yes, india and pakistan did have factories, companies etc. perhaps you are looking at global corporation with famous names
And it definitely was a pakistany national that was carrying cash to Mugabe's office in a briefcase. so as for your zimbabwe discourse about money bank machines i don't know what you mean. **BUt, i do know for an absolute fact a pakistany carried money to mugabe!!!!!!!!! **So , I enoucrage you to read BCCI
Many africans prospered under colonialism . sure it had its negativity aplenty but to whitewash it as all problems of the west is to limit one's knowledge of all countries including India and pakistan and china's involvement.
Re: Zimbabwe
Uber you have a very good imagination. I live in Zimbabwe as a child. I again visited Zimbabwe in 1997 to meet some childhood friends that were still there.
I do not deny that BCCI carried money in briefcases to Mugabe. So did the US government, so did the British government, hell when British banks opened offices, they did everything in cash as well. Hell even today in Sudan all transactions occur in cash. The banking system is so backward. The banking system in Zimbabwe when BCCI was around was limited in scope. There were no ATMs or electronic transactions.
I find it absolutely retarded you considering a person carrying money in a briefcase a sign of corruption, because everybody - every single bank did it in Zimbabwe. This is the 1980s were speaking off. No Internet. No computers. No credit cards. No traveller cheques. Nothing of the sort in Zimbabwe
Re: Zimbabwe
Uber you have a very good imagination. I live in Zimbabwe as a child. I again visited Zimbabwe in 1997 to meet some childhood friends that were still there.
I do not deny that BCCI carried money in briefcases to Mugabe. So did the US government, so did the British government, hell when British banks opened offices, they did everything in cash as well. Hell even today in Sudan all transactions occur in cash. The banking system is so backward. The banking system in Zimbabwe when BCCI was around was limited in scope. There were no ATMs or electronic transactions.
I find it absolutely retarded you considering a person carrying money in a briefcase a sign of corruption, because everybody - every single bank did it in Zimbabwe. This is the 1980s were speaking off. No Internet. No computers. No credit cards. No traveller cheques. Nothing of the sort in Zimbabwe
Well , imagination or not and wether you lived there as a child and went holidaying later in 1997 simply proves you were a child who knew nothing then about it and it actually happened prior to your holidaying in 1997and as for retard, I was refering to specific not generalities regarding monies in a briefcase.. it appears remedial reading lessons might be required for comprehension?
The specific pakistani individual carrying monies to Mugabe was much deeper and players names were many and well known but this money carrying person ended in prison, charge? corruption/bribery. Perhaps you should read more about it and become better informed before trying a debate as it magnified your lack of knowledge regarding BCCI. And you do not have to reinterate about lack of technology as it common knowledge, or was it merely filler? Every single bank did not do what BCCI did.
Hint: Is it simply reading knowledge or knowing the offspring?
Re: Zimbabwe
sigh Now this is just getting retarded. Specific members? Ask about what happened when Margret Thatchers son was in Zimbabwe to meet Mugabe in 1987. What about when her son was caught selling arms in South Africa? He is taking part in an illegal arms deal to rebels fighting against a legitimate government.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E5DB133EF935A1575BC0A9629C8B63
I do not deny that BCCI carried huge amounts of money to Mugabe. But then again they were not the only ones doing it. I love those rose tinted glasses you wear.
Re: Zimbabwe
More than 2 weeks and still no results of the election...and the local idiot Mbeki say there is no crisis in Zimbabwe. Even the SADOC meeting of Friday did not result in anything. Another tea-drinking that lasted for 13 hours. No wonder I have almost no repsect for polititians and diplomates - watch out CM! :)
Kudoos to the Zimbabwean population that remain fairly calm during these testing circumstances.
Let us hope the high court has the balls to force the declaring of the results today.
Re: Zimbabwe
It's time Mugabe and his goons were assassinated. He isn't going to budge from the hot seat in any other way. He'll b 1 less terrorist on the face of the earth & certainly won't b missed.
Re: Zimbabwe
Pfft if I worried about losing your respect Old man, I wouldn't be posting in this thread :p As for Mbeki. His days are numbered anyway. Lets see how Zuma will do.