Sure, if I see you on the street, I will immediately know.
The real point is that Zaqawi's acts are in the name of Islam. And distinguishing Muslims who share his view is impossible. I am in perfect agreement that the violent fanatics are a distinct minority. How to distinguish that minority from the majority is the rub. And there is a need to distinguish our violent fanatical enemies, as they have sworn to destroy us. So help us out, let me know precisely how to identify my enemies, and I certainly have no quarrel with the majority.
So long as there are bombings in Madrid, London, Bali, 9/11, and theoretically Toronto, there will be a need to distinguish our enemies. Zarqawi simply puts an exclaimation point on how brutal and ruthless our enemies can be.
The typical reaction to 9/11 is a mix of “we didnt do it” “jews did it” “theyre an extremist fringe” on the one hand and “you should look at root causes” on the other. The former is not incompatible with the latter, and there can be seething resentment of American policies in the Muslim world on the one hand along with the possibility of Muslims being innocent, jews/cia doing it, or an extremist fringe within Muslims doing it.
Leaving aside the jew/cia theory, “we didnt do it” and “theyre an extremist fringe” are both forms of disassociation, similar to the stock “they’re not a representation of the fine american military, Americans are brave noble people” line you hear everytime a torture tape/picture surfaces.
Every side has their preferences that they wish to push. After 9/11 while your priority might have been Muslims repeatedly constantly disassociating themselves from terrorists in explicit terms on every single forum in the world, and while that might even be reasonable from your perspective, the average Muslim concern was that 9/11 is being used as a smoke screen to brush aside legitimate Muslim concerns as those of terrorists and those of people with bombers. Muslims will very reasonably push their concerns, while you will push for yours.
While 3500 people is a lot for americans, and it shocks them, human life around the world has been suffering, sometimes at American hands (such as in Iraq and Afghanistan), and has been suffering in much larger numbers, and it just doesnt have the same impact as you expect to have. Sounds callous, just as callous as the attitude of the rest of the world when viewed from the eyes of a starving mother too weak to save her child being devoured by vultures before her eyes, when millions like her die and people with the capability to help them dont, and people who could help just dont feel her pain because its so distant and remote.
And you tell me, what have you done to disassociate yourself from the American military’s torture and extra judicial killings, you say this attitude existed before Afghanistan and Iraq and Gitmo, now that these have made American perception around the world as a threat and as dangerous, what have you done, in concrete terms to chance that perception? Do you not see that anything you do will be ineffective and unable to change such a perception, because there is pretty much nothing you can do about it.
The nature of catholicism and Islam is very different. We do not have excommunication the way catholics/jews do.
There is a small minority of Muslims who cast fatwas of Kufr on others, and they are derisively called Takfiris. Zarqawi was one of them, and they are not a part of mainstream shia or sunni faith. Likewise, the earlier people who called others Kafirs were also not mainstream Muslims, but an offshoot called Kharijies (outsiders). Incidentally both of these groups have militant tendencies.
you see the tradition of calling others Kaffir is not a part of mainstream Islam, rather small subsets, who are often also the ones doing some of the more senseless violence.
Kufr is a state of disbelief in Allah/the Prophet. If you murder someone that does not mean you dont believe in Allah. Therefore the catholic/jewish notion of excommunication does not apply here. Takfeer (calling a Muslim kafir) can only happen in very limited circumstances where his disbelief in Allah or the Prophet is established, and even Kharijies and Takfiries cast those fatwas on the same basis. He may be a very corrupt and immoral and murderous and raping person, a hated enemy, but he would still be regarded as Muslim.
You havent been watching carefully enough I think. Theres a thread by Codey referenced earlier in this thread, calling him a terrorist in no uncertain terms. Furthermore Im not an active WA poster, but I have opened threads against such violence in PA before.
bhai Ravage, I always appreciate your viewpoints, as do (I believe) guppies who are on the other side of this coin called the war on terror. You should run for khalifah or something. Fraudia could be your VP.
Rather than be distracted to all of the topics you have touched on, I will forge on with the topic at hand. What would I suggest with Zarqawi? Well, first of all Zarqawi is a creature of his envionment. Indeed he was found by following his “spirtual advisor” (ie some imam who sanctioned the beheadings). So lets start by getting rid of the imams who breed these venomous thugs.
As mentioned in the article below, even the Afghani’s can get their act together enough to strip radicals of their religious authority.
A crowd of 600 Afghan clerics gathered in front of an historic mosque yesterday to strip the fugitive Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar of his claim to religious authority, in a ceremony that provided a significant boost to the presidency of Hamid Karzai.
The declaration, signed by 1,000 clerics from across the country, is an endorsement of the US-backed programme of reconciliation with more moderate elements of the Taliban movement that Karzai has been pursuing ahead of the country’s first parliamentary elections, due in September. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=184686&highlight=mullah+omar
If you cannot excommunicate Zarqawi, surely you can strip his religious advisor of his religious authority. While you are at it, you can self-police radical mosques which seem to be breeding gounds for violent Islam. Better that you do it than the FBI, eh? If even the dreaded US military punishes their own wrongdoers, surely Islam can at least accomplish some measure of self cleansing.
Stu, are you free? How long was your solitary confinement? Do I need to revise my signature?
^ OG - I'm as free as I can be, on GUPSHUP at least, to speak my mind. Semi also appears to haven been released from GUPSHUPs version of Gitmo, although I think the real torture occurs when we're not banned.... Gora persecution has been downgraded to gora censorship.
Now that Youk is free (and batting at the top of the order mind you), it looks like you're batting a 1.000 bhaijaan.
If we look at the response by Muslim countries, their leaders, local and international scholars and organization, we'll find them deeply in disgust and anger on killing of innocent civilians including terrorist attacks of 9/11, Madrid and London bombings. Now tell me after all of these major events, what coverage these reactions of disgust got the air time in the western media?
If west believes that all Muslims are not terrorists and majority of us disapprove of barbaric crimes as these and others why there is a term like 'Islamophobia'? Why so many hate crimes? Even if the response and reaction is not a satisfaction to some, it is enough to convince that large majority of Muslims do not accept these crimes. Why do we still have the stereotypes? Why the racial profiling?
If one wants to distinguish a terrorist from Muslims, they must get rid of their hate against Islam. Things will be more clear after that.
They continue to ignore the rape of little boys by Catholic priests the world over, and cover it up by moving the offenders to other "holy" duties in another parish. It's only when the abused kids grow up and start speaking of the abuses that the Catholic chruch confronts the particular issue in question - nothing more. The Catholic church never came forward to acknowledge the perverted crimes of it's priests, but allowed these people to continue as nothing had ever happened.
On the same topic of Christian hypocrisy. Throughout history the Catholic church has made Saints of mass murderers, or people who have incited murder.
FACT - Instead of excommunicating rapists and murderers, the Catholic Church covered their crimes up, or made them Saints!
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and regarded his struggle against aforementioned snakes as praiseworthy
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Why are you calling shias as "snakes"? And if it is what someone else called shias then why are you repeating his derogatory words towards a section of population?
For me, people who kill innocent people, and people who support them, are the followers of Evil ideology. No question about it.
Unfortunately, many Pakistanis support these followers of Evil, even though mostly they are afraid to say it publicly.
The real point is that Zaqawi's acts are in the name of Islam. And distinguishing Muslims who share his view is impossible.
So all it takes is a fifth-columnist convert, who takes on no outwordly manifestation of being a Muslim, to bring you out on the streets as you want Muslims to? Just to prove to your neighbours you're not a Muslim terrorist in hiding?
The 9-11 bombers didn't go to your corner mosque. They drank. They went to strip clubs.
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So help us out, let me know precisely how to identify my enemies, and I certainly have no quarrel with the majority.
Ohioguy, I am not going to waste my time replying to you unless your highness graces each of the points I’ve made with a reply. Im sorry, but you just cannot bring in topics yourself and have me waste my breath replying only to say its off topic.
Prince Abbas Apologies, I was being sarcastic. I am shia myself, and dont think we’re snakes.