One also has to remember that only 5% of the insurgency in Iraq is foreign based, or based on Zarqawis and Al Qaida in Iraq, even the white house the DOD and other US intelligence agencies have asserted this time after time. So you need to identify the face of an enemy for the purpose of the warfare and based on the US global war on terrorism, nothing can be more appropriate than the Al Qaida, that’s why we have Zarqawis, because the remaining 95% of the resistance is totally local and it puts a dent in US image as occupiers of a foreign country.
Interesting views, there isnt much divergence here so far in this thread. The bogeyman idea has been floating around, I read an article on it on al-jazeera, where the point too was along the lines of what MiniMe/Picoico and others make.
So the jewish/western influence is in inflating his image and not so much in spreading lies, is that the opinion here?
Merc please dont debate in this thread I only want to gather Muslim perspectives about the guy.
I apologize for bringing in the mod/non-mod thing. As I said I was trying to be humorous.
This guy was one of the worst human beings alive. He was reponsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, including women and children. Let's all, as Muslims and citizens of the world, rejoice in the fact that he is no longer able to kill anymore.
Let's hope everybody belonging to his group in Iraq is either killed or brought to justice.
Islam simply does not allow for the killing of innocent people, Muslim or non-Muslim.
I am glad that he is alive no more. He was a menace who brought trouble and misery to the people of Iraq and its future. Even if his main target was United States, his ways weren't the way to achieve the goal, a better future for Iraq. He killed numerous innocent people and really made no headway in his so called freedom of Iraq--------we really don't know what he wanted to accomplish to begin with.
I agree with the posters that he was another propaganda man for Bush administration. I believe that American media has made a living on 'evil doers'. They want a face and name to hate and Zarqawi fit the bill when discussing Iraqi insurgency. First it was Osama, then came Saddam and his sons....I remember American media comparing him to Adolf Hitler and how his removal will be similar to Nazi's defeat in WWII.
I am more concerened about Iraqi insurgency and on-going violence. I don't think his death will bring any halt to it. It will, however, help the insurgency as there is no face to go with it. His picture and details of death are just for American viewers who, unlike an average Iraqi, do not see and observe death and destruction first hand. So, its really silly to say that those foreign fighters and terrorits will be any bit troubled.
In the end, Zarqawi will go down under the names of Osama and Zawahiri, 'The internationally known terrorists'. I don't know where they would end up in our history, heros or zeros but they really haven't done anything for our Muslim Ummah. Zarqawi was more concerned with bombs than schools or building hospitals. If we accuse Bush and his administration for not having a plan for Iraq, Zarqawi and others didn't help in that cause either.
Should someone who has intentionally blown up thousands of innocents still be a Muslim? You guys are so quick to declare a Bush supporter "Kafir", but a guy who has killed thousands of Muslims is still mourned?
Ex-Communicate the guy. Declare him a pariah. Assemble your mosques state-wide, country-wide or world-wide to disavow this type of animal. The leaders of hundreds of Mosques in Afghanistan actually did this with Mullah Omar. Why is there even a discussion about this guy, he is a heinous murderer.
If you can't disavow him, I fear for your religion.
Disavow him? When did we actually say that he represents us? Where do you see Muslims in large majority saying that he represent us and our religion? It is western media that says all of these things, like he is the face of 'Islamic fundamantalism' this the reason we have terms like 'Islamofasicm' and 'Islamophobia'. Media and politicians have made a living out of it when the fact of the matter is people like Zarqawi and others are neither celebrated nor prasied in the Muslim world in majority. It is media and politicians responsibilty to tell the whole truth.
What would you get from this assembly of Muslims denoucing Zarqawi, when they didn't celebrated him at the first place? Probably to statisfy western viewers that something is 'accomplished'. Reality is Zarqawi like others in Iraq whether they are American plus coalition of willing troops and terrorits are just piling up on their misery and the death toll.
And, he is the one claiming to speak and act on behalf of your religion. If that is OK with you, then I guess there really is no obligation on your part to disavow him.
But if you fail to distance yourself from this brand of violence, then don't scratch your head later on when the West lumps all Muslims together.....
Should someone who has intentionally blown up thousands of innocents still be a Muslim?
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A thousand innocent dead is a thousand innocent dead, no matter if the person wielding the bombs and guns intended to kill the innocent or not. They're out there...holding FREAKING GUNS AND BOMBS knowing damn well that innocents are going to die. One side makes no bones about it, the other rationalizes it. I'm very torn as to who is worse: the psycopath or those who commit the same acts but do so with lame-ass rationalizations.
Anyone who looses sight of that has the moral maturity of a slug.
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Ex-Communicate the guy. Declare him a pariah.
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a) No such conept of excommunication. There HAVE been fatwa's galore declaring him a murderer. Not that you care to listen. He was a pariah, at least those who didn't dismiss his acts as propoganda.
Now, why the hell should we in the Muslim liety react to a criminal act? When the hell was the last time YOU went out in the streets and protested for every civilian that died in the name of your liberty and way of life?
It's just not done.
Pot's have no business calling the kettle black. You also make the error of assumeing we want or desire the respect of those who would demand us to make a public pennance. Go to hell, is more like it.
And, he is the one claiming to speak and act on behalf of your religion.
So what? As I said, those marines who went on an evil and mudererous rampage were definitely in Iraq for the sake of their country and your way of life.
Ohioguy, first off I dont understand it when Americans talk about perception of Muslims worldwide, when their own is worse than Muslims. Especially americans who support the actions of Bush, yet find no inconsistency that while having americans passing themselves off as canadian and being considered the biggest global threat in multiple surveys over multiple years in many different parts of the world you can come and tell us about how the western world percieves us.
Scroll down in the WA forum and you'll see the recent thread opened by Maddie on european perception of America. You'll also find there the earlier discussion on american perception that I've linked. Not surprisingly the dominant pro American response is that theyre just jealous / cowardly etc.
Secondly your exhortations to disassociate with him come a little too late in a thread where pretty much every poster so far has disassociated his actions with those of an Islamic jihad, yet if you mention any Muslim view, it is Lajawab's, and there in a nutshell is your and the western perception's problem. Even Lajawab does not condone his Muslim killing, merely denies the source of the news any credibility, which actually isnt so incredible a claim, given how much the media is manipulated in the states. In this instance I believe him to be wrong, and wanted him to clarify how he holds that view, but in general, given how corporate interests dominate media reporting in US, and how there are verifiable incidents of such corporations manipulating the news, its certainly possible.
At the very least, he was a very convenient bogeyman, whether he was callous or just not a good tactical planner I cannot say.
My exortations to dissassociate started right after 9/11. Muslims here wanted nothing to do with dissociating. They were happy to tell me about "root causes", as if there were some rational that justified this violence. This was well before Afghanistan, Iraq, Abu Graib, Gitmo, and the perpetual list creating that rationalizes this violence.
As an organized religion, Catholics can ex-communicate a Catholic who violates the religion. Why can't Islam take an organized stand against people who so obviously violate the laws of man and God who claim to behead people in the name of *your *religion?
I have watched the debate on Gupshup carefully. When a Muslim takes an alternative political view, there are immediately a hundred people slapping him back into the line of politically correct Muslim thinking. Almost immediately someone questions the Faith of the alternative thinker. Yet Zarqawi commits heinous crimes an the passion with which he is denounced is distinctly underwhelming, and only post death. Please point me to a thread started by a Muslim here offended by the acts of Zarqawi during the beheadings. Seems to me the term "kafir" is used pretty freely in daily debate, but it is seldom used at all when it counts.
As an organized religion, Catholics can ex-communicate a Catholic who violates the religion.
What a load of absolute trash!
What did the Catholic Church do to the hundreds, if not thousands of their priests discovered buggering little boys? They covered up their crimes and let them continue their "holy" duties!
My exortations to dissassociate started right after 9/11. Muslims here wanted nothing to do with dissociating. They were happy to tell me about "root causes", as if there were some rational that justified this violence. This was well before Afghanistan, Iraq, Abu Graib, Gitmo, and the perpetual list creating that rationalizes this violence.
Quick question: Should the Americans who are against the war dissociate from America, giveup their citizenship as its the American military who is doing something they are against?
Muslims here wanted nothing to do with dissociating. They were happy to tell me about "root causes", as if there were some rational that justified this violence.
No, I doubt that's what happened. Most likely, an apology or some form of demand was made on Muslims to prove their faith was not violent, and so Muslims naturally reacted to the hypocrisy of that stance, given the people who are so concerned with Islam being "violent" are no bunch of roses themselves...and in fact, may be partially to blame for the violence in terms of provocation...hence the endless discussion on "root" causes, which is most apropos.
As for Zarqawi, it has been made clear by Sunni and Shia (no guff) scholars that he is guilty of a serious Fitnah, which is one of the things that comes close to the concept of ex-communication.
Not that anyone is paying attention. Musn't let facts get in the way of our whining.
What did the Catholic Church do to the hundreds, if not thousands of their priests discovered buggering little boys? They covered up their crimes and let them continue their "holy" duties!
Yes, at first they tried to ignore it, cover it up, and say that it was not really part of their religion. (sound familiar?) Eventually they acknowedged the problem, but did too little. (sound familiar?). Only when forced to act by the courts, after losing huge amounts of money which forced them to close parishes and sell property did they take the problem in earnest and deal with it. Would I put child molestation, and revival of the ancient practice of beheading on the same moral plane? Close, but the taking of innocent lives in ritual fashion violates the laws of every organized religion. Yet barely a peep from Muslims about the damage this has done to their image. Instead some yo-ho pulls out a survey of what Europeans think about the US, as if this somehow deflects focus for a minute.
Get it straight. These foul demons are murdering in the name of Islam. If you don't think you are going to be effected by this, ask the Catholic Church. If they had excommunicated the first priest caught molesting, they could have distanced themselves from the problem. The outrage at the Zaqawis of this world has very little passion or volume.
First of all, it is as much of your problem as it is ours. Zarqawi wasn’t even on the map before U.S got there. The problem is when Muslims from start did not appreciate, support and encouraged his practices in majority shows that they did not believe in him, his words and way of thinking. This should be enough or close to disavowing him.
Zarqawi will be judged before Allah for all of his deeds and sins. While we are on earth, you and your western media has an obligation and resposibilty to know and tell entire truth about Iraq.
Fail to distance from violence? Who is approaching it at the first place? How about you and your western media face the truth about the lies told about Iraq and WMD. West have done nothing but to achieve their goals by blackmailing or threaths.
Since 9/11, the first mistake west made was to label it as ‘Islamic terrorism’ when they know it is just terrorism. Now you have confused people who do not understand the fact and drop any kind of reasonable arugment and facts whenever fear is thrown towards them. They are more affraid of their so-called ‘Islamofasicm’ when the fact is there is none. There are corrupt governments and leaders just like any other country, including the United States.
No. It doesn't sound familiar. That is THE Catholic church, of which a good number of catholics are members of and follow it's teachings. That is not at all some fringe group proclaiming to act on behalf of catholics everywhere.
More Muslims have died activley combating terrorists than Americans, who are off in Iraq creating them. So the whole notion of Muslims not doing anything about it is silly, and at odds with reality.
I didn't know Zarqawi, didn't follow him, I'm not his friend, and he certainly has no influence on me. I hope you're sane enough to see the difference.
^So according to your 2+2=5 thing american have the same right to just grab any muslim slaughtr them with blunt razor ,video tape em and realese the tape so their families can see.