Re: Z in urdu
that by Bahaadur Shah Zafar 
and I think this is by Jaidee???
Taaleem paanay aaya thaa maiN iss khiyaal say
Shayad mera shumaar ho ahl-e-kamaal maiN
Kia kahiiyeh kaisay guzray hain London kay char din
Do Factory main kat gaye, do haspataal maiN
Re: Z in urdu
^ haha... good one.
Re: Z in urdu
Irem : Urdu is derived from Hindi 
(well mainly) The base from the hindi, words & phrases from 6 diffrent languages. Which include Hindi, Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit & Greek.
There were two prime reasons for forming a new similar language to the one that is already spoken.
Muslims werent comfortable using Hindi as their language, they wanted something ‘muslim’ (atleast we borrowed rasmulkhat from Arabic)
Muslims felt hindi did not had much of a respectful words they need for a muslim soceity (keeping in mind Hindi also inherited alot of those words from urdu recently which include a big list from aap, janaab walay words)
Yes word Urdu is basically Turkish & means the same u mentioned, but interesting enough, the Oxford Dictionary also give another defination to the word which is something similar to this “The Hindustani language as spoken by the Muhammedans of India and by the Hindus who have intercourse with them”. I wonder from where this defination came from, perhaps bcos of those various “kothaas” in hinstoric India where muslim ladies used to perform dances & ppl who used to visit usually would speak urdu & do some poetry as well 
Anyway, back to original post Z
The answer to ‘why?’ is bcos Urdu has borrowed loads of words from diffrent languages, if one languages uses Z word with lets say “zaal” other language used Z word from “zay”. Since urdu borrowed both words, it borrowed both letters as well.
I think there r basically 4 Z words.
Zal. is called “dal muajjena” its the 9th letter of Arabic & 13th of Urdu. In numeric (abjad) it stands for 700.
Zay or Ze. Its called “Zae ma’jjama” or “Zae manquta” is the 11th Arabic & Persian letter & 16th of Urdu. In abjad, it stands for 7.
Zad. Its purely Arabic letter. Its called “Zad-i-muajjama” & “Zad-i-manquta” Its 15th of Arabic letter, 18th of Persian & 21st of Urdu & if u care, in abjad it stands for 800.
Zoe. In Arabic its pronounced as “Za” In abjad it stands for 900 & its a 17th Arabic letter. It dosent occur in pure Persian.
Re: Z in urdu
JB you got it ALL wrong. Urdu was not derived from Hindi :p
Re: Z in urdu
How about THIS](http://www.urdustan.com/mazameen/urdu_ki_ibtada.html) 
Re: Z in urdu
There's different theories on how the language started. However, I believe that Urdu was not derived from hindi.
Re: Z in urdu
there are theories on founder/date/etc…not on the root of the language. Urdu is a fairly new language, its history is not a mystery. even that is irrelevant, as both Urdu and Hindi are still alive and one can compare quite easily.
for whatever reason (perhaps your hatred for anything India-related), you might like to believe it was not derived from Hindi…but that would contradict reality. similarly, there are probably people who believe 2+2=5.
try formulating an argument on how Urdu was not based on Hindi…it will be a joke.
Re: Z in urdu
well... the only formal Urdu course that I've taken... the historical accounts trace the language tree as: Avestan -> Pahlavi -> Dari -> Urdu - and hence putting Urdu in the Persian branch of tongues.
That being said, it was Mahmud of Ghazni and his invading army (lashkar) spoke the earlier dialect of the language and it was then that it got synthesized with sanskrit through interactions with the civilians in India.
So there's no denying the sanskrit influence.
Re: Z in urdu
sorry i have been interchanging Hindi with Sanskrit....more like Sanskrit via Hindi, as Hindi itself is a separate language from Sanskrit
Re: Z in urdu
nikhil Umar is right. there's a difference between INFLUENCE and a language being DERIVED from another language.
its not about hatred or whatever, i just wanted to set the record straight.
Re: Z in urdu
Urdu grammar and core vocabulary is virtually identical to Hindi (which is obviously derived from Sanskrit), and unrecognizable to Persians/Turks/Arabs. (i’m not referring to the script or extra Farsi vocabulary, i am referring to the foundation)
are you saying that you disagree with that statement? yes or no. if no, please explain on what basis you have to disagree.
my guess is that you are mistakenly confusing the amount of Farsi vocabulary mixed into Hindi for the actual basis of the language.
"It soon became the language of the Mughals, distinguished linguistically from local languages by its large and extensive Arabic-Persian vocabulary (40%) superimposed on a base of grammar, usages and vocabulary that it shares in common with Hindi."
Genetic
classification (in descending order):
Indo-European
Indo-Iranian
Indo-Aryan
Central Zone
Western Hindi
Hindustani
Urdu
Re: Z in urdu
only very few urdu speaking ppl actually know the correct pronounciation for zal, zaad and zoe....
actually zoe is the heaviest sound among these, followed by zaad, then zaal and zay is the lightest....
Re: Z in urdu
armughal bhai:D issi liye heavier the Zaroof are, better they make for the gift:p
Re: Z in urdu
There's no such language as Hindi :p
what you call Hindi, is actually Urdu with the added extra of some words from Sankskrit.
Re: Z in urdu
wonderful shers btw AQ and Umar T.
Re: Z in urdu
Ditto
Hindus changed Farsi/ Arabic script of Urdu to Sanskrit script and named it Hindi.
Urdu with letters like z, qaaf and kha sounds much more sophisticated then Hindi. That’s why most the song and dialogues written in Indian movies are by Muslims.
Re: Z in urdu
see this is what I mean - I can understand all the words except the Umr-e-daraaz part - perhaps Umr is age/time but daraaz?
any way, my point is, even with my very limted Hindi vocabulary I can understand 14 of the 15 terms in the sheyr. How can it not be a derivative, a close one at that?
Re: Z in urdu
wah wah wah!
Re: Z in urdu
This has been a very educational thread for me. I learnt a lot about courteous discussion, about language roots, about how prejudice can corrupt reason even in silly matters and got to read some pleasant and funny sheyrs!
Whoever started this brilliant thread deserves kudos and as a reward will get read-only privy to the mod section -
Re: Z in urdu
hmmm the first time i heard someone speak Hindi, i thought he naturally had a totli zabaan, the way kids speak. It wasnt until I met a few more totli speakers, i realised the fault was in the Hindi alphabet. :halo: