Re: Your View on the Army
We do have to acknowledge that army still is the best functioning institution this country has. And is the least corrupt. The only thing we need is someone who properly runs it, that is, keep it away from financial ventures and political intrusions.
Re: Your View on the Army
Is this difficult to see. When there is a vaccum of good civilian leaders, naturally the Army has filled in. Produce civilian leaders with integrity and it will take away the political share of Army. This is ideal talk though. In reality in Pakistan, the Army is so strong that its difficult for civilians to stay in power unchalleged by the Army at will. Its simply no possible for politicians alone to confine them back to where they belong, it requires a movement by people and a rebellion of some Top Army brass as well. However you need politicians with integrity to spearhead it as well. Not politicians like NS, BB or even IK.
Re: Your View on the Army
Bring a politician like Quaid-e-Azam with his integrity, and I assure you that no one from any force, including army, would dare to kick such politicians out of power.
If army kicks politicians out of power, fault lies with politicians not army. People in army just like any Pakistanis think about Pakistan as much, if not more. Pakistani forces consist of around a million people that are always there to give their lives for Pakistan and come from every sector of society (especially middle and lower class) and from all provinces. They are also voters and have their own political affiliations. So, no one can say that they are any different than other Pakistanis or want any bad for Pakistan.
Put yourself in the shoe of an army chief. What would you do if you see that a politician in post of Prime Minister is doing injustice to the post, and along with his friends and associates robbing the country instead of serving the country, and civilians in position (Police and judiciary) are not doing anything to stop them?
Army is not employee of any individual or politicians to stay loyal to them. Army is employee of Nation and their loyalty should be to the Nation. It is not duty of army to be guard dog of a country looking at only external threat, as Nation is not paying them for that, Nation is paying them to see that no threat, be that external or internal, harm the interest of Nation.
Most citizens have no access to see what is going on in the corridor of power neither they have knowledge of everything about the person they vote. Voters do not know how much the person they voted earns, what tax they paid, what is their wealth, how much their wealth incrased during them in office. How that person lives, what they spend, what bank balance that person have, did they served the country with honesty or was doing corruption in office, what was the behaviour of them in job, actually, voters do not know anything about the person they vote, including what that person is really doing when in power.
They judge politicians from their promises, but it is duty of government employees (civil servants who get their pay from taxes) that anyone that gets elected does not harm the country, and army is also government employee (who gets their pay from taxes) and it is also their duty to see if anyone that get elected is not harming the country, or looting and plundering wealth of the country.
very well said
Re: Your View on the Army
Bring a politician like Quaid-e-Azam with his integrity, and I assure you that no one from any force, including army, would dare to kick such politicians out of power.
If army kicks politicians out of power, fault lies with politicians not army. People in army just like any Pakistanis think about Pakistan as much, if not more. Pakistani forces consist of around a million people that are always there to give their lives for Pakistan and come from every sector of society (especially middle and lower class) and from all provinces. They are also voters and have their own political affiliations. So, no one can say that they are any different than other Pakistanis or want any bad for Pakistan.
Put yourself in the shoe of an army chief. What would you do if you see that a politician in post of Prime Minister is doing injustice to the post, and along with his friends and associates robbing the country instead of serving the country, and civilians in position (Police and judiciary) are not doing anything to stop them?
Army is not employee of any individual or politicians to stay loyal to them. Army is employee of Nation and their loyalty should be to the Nation. It is not duty of army to be guard dog of a country looking at only external threat, as Nation is not paying them for that, Nation is paying them to see that no threat, be that external or internal, harm the interest of Nation.
Most citizens have no access to see what is going on in the corridor of power neither they have knowledge of everything about the person they vote. Voters do not know how much the person they voted earns, what tax they paid, what is their wealth, how much their wealth incrased during them in office. How that person lives, what they spend, what bank balance that person have, did they served the country with honesty or was doing corruption in office, what was the behaviour of them in job, actually, voters do not know anything about the person they vote, including what that person is really doing when in power.
They judge politicians from their promises, but it is duty of government employees (civil servants who get their pay from taxes) that anyone that gets elected does not harm the country, and army is also government employee (who gets their pay from taxes) and it is also their duty to see if anyone that get elected is not harming the country, or looting and plundering wealth of the country.
The public servent should remain in barracks where they belong and stop being masters. Hadn't Ghulam Muhammed threatened politicians with Ayub's pistol, or then PM fired COAS and ousted president for threatening him of Martial Law, the things would have been different.
For once and for ever, our wardi waalay naukar should have act like naukars. Zaleel siyasatdaar aur kameeni fauj.
Re: Your View on the Army
I'm all for that. That is the only way we can prevent future coups. These morons have no bloody business in running the country.
That is short-sighted thinking. Punishing coup leaders only sends tha message that next time a coup occurs, it's leaders had better not hand over power because if they lose power they will die.
Pnishing the leaders of this coup will only mean that the next coup will never willingly exit power in the way that Musharraf's government is slowly winding down its grip on power, in the way that after Zia's death his government handed over power, how Yahya Khan handed over power, etc.
The blunt reality is that the fact that in Pakistan, successful military coup leaders have never been punished. The result is that Pakistan's history is full of military governments that have always eventually peacefully handed over power; military governments that have never face massed rebellions with the resulting mass bloodshed as found in other countries.
Re: Your View on the Army
Buhat afsos ki baat, ke aap un ko is qadr zillat ke nigah se dekhtay hain.
Wonder where you will be if these public servants decide to not defend the country and let anyone walk in? You’ll probably be somewhere in a rathole hiding.
Chor apnay ilaqay mein kabhi dosra chor bardasht nahi karta …
Re: Your View on the Army
They should do what they are paid for. They are servents. They should be on borders or in barracks, not on our roads with barriers. We don't want to see Army trucks on the streets. Thats the ugliest sight for any society. These guys have misused their power to overthrough elected governments, creating new political parties and promoting corrupt leaders, disecting country and then hanging their own man and installing new one. The musical chair goes forever and behind all these moves, the men in uniform remain the core of power.
Once we have strong and honest judiciary and balanced media, no corrupt politicians and drunk general will ever dare to rape the country again.
I never said, we don't army. We need army to secure our borders, but they should not become nation's baap. Millitary involvement in politics is opium for millitary itself and poison for the nation. Unfortunately we are under immense doze right now.
Re: Your View on the Army
mujhe na army achi nahi lagti... i mean theek hai,air force maze ki hoti hai.
Re: Your View on the Army
Put yourself in the shoe of an army chief. What would you do if you see that a politician in post of Prime Minister is doing injustice to the post, and along with his friends and associates robbing the country instead of serving the country, and civilians in position (Police and judiciary) are not doing anything to stop them?
If all the civil disturbances (media shut down, SC sacked, suicide bombings) were happening during a "democratic" govt it would've long been thrown out.
Re: Your View on the Army
What borders has our military saved? Only Indian side when there is no apparent danger? Afghan border is as open as if honey and milk is flowing in Afghanistan and everyone walking in from there is an angel. Biggest problem is being caused by that border and it remains open to support the extremists on our side. Swat problem is not yesterdays, it took months in the making and our military was sleeping. Lal Masjid didn’t take days to rise but again months in the making, what was military govt doing? Sleeping.
Are you saying this about army? 
Re: Your View on the Army
Bring a politician like Quaid-e-Azam with his integrity, and I assure you that no one from any force, including army, would dare to kick such politicians out of power.
If army kicks politicians out of power, fault lies with politicians not army. People in army just like any Pakistanis think about Pakistan as much, if not more. Pakistani forces consist of around a million people that are always there to give their lives for Pakistan and come from every sector of society (especially middle and lower class) and from all provinces. They are also voters and have their own political affiliations. So, no one can say that they are any different than other Pakistanis or want any bad for Pakistan.
Put yourself in the shoe of an army chief. What would you do if you see that a politician in post of Prime Minister is doing injustice to the post, and along with his friends and associates robbing the country instead of serving the country, and civilians in position (Police and judiciary) are not doing anything to stop them?
Army is not employee of any individual or politicians to stay loyal to them. Army is employee of Nation and their loyalty should be to the Nation. It is not duty of army to be guard dog of a country looking at only external threat, as Nation is not paying them for that, Nation is paying them to see that no threat, be that external or internal, harm the interest of Nation.
Most citizens have no access to see what is going on in the corridor of power neither they have knowledge of everything about the person they vote. Voters do not know how much the person they voted earns, what tax they paid, what is their wealth, how much their wealth incrased during them in office. How that person lives, what they spend, what bank balance that person have, did they served the country with honesty or was doing corruption in office, what was the behaviour of them in job, actually, voters do not know anything about the person they vote, including what that person is really doing when in power.
They judge politicians from their promises, but it is duty of government employees (civil servants who get their pay from taxes) that anyone that gets elected does not harm the country, and army is also government employee (who gets their pay from taxes) and it is also their duty to see if anyone that get elected is not harming the country, or looting and plundering wealth of the country.
I cannot accept military rule in any shape or form - period. Now going back to the coups in 1977 and 1998 there was nothing Bhutto and Nawaz did that amounted to endangering the nation - period, that was pure political opportunism by the military. Yes the elections were rigged in 1977 but the answer lay in the CJ at the time declaring the election result null and void and ordering fresh elections. That is why we need a strong and independent judiciary that can rule on such important matters. Same was the case in 1998. Nawaz was within his constitutional rights (although I can't say he was ethically right to do so) to sack Musharraf (but why the hell does a COAS act so big and smart in our country?). Nawaz indeed was irresponsible in not allowing the plane carrying Mush to land but that was a knee jerk reaction to an imminent coup. The military should have allowed Mush to land but there was no justification for the coup. And even if we accept that the coups were justified does it mean these idiots should hold onto kursi for an indefinite period of time! Don't try and justify these crimes. Two wrongs don't make a right. I can almost guarantee you the way our military has sadly behaved over the last 3 or 4 decades these jokers would have not hesitated one bit to topple even Jinnah (if he was the PM today). They are just looking for the lamest of excuses to step in.
Let the people decide via successive elections (and not the military dictators) who they want as their leader. With strong democratic institutions and an independent judiciary these problems of incompetency and corruption by elected leaders can surely be minimised. And the generals are no harfan maula as I indicated in another thread. The top brass of the military is equally corrupt.
Re: Your View on the Army
So the 60 year history of Pak Army is subject to what happened a few months ago.
I mean a little bit of both.
Re: Your View on the Army
... Nawaz indeed was irresponsible in not allowing the plane carrying Mush to land but that was a knee jerk reaction to an imminent coup. The military should have allowed Mush to land but there was no justification for the coup. And even if we accept that the coups were justified does that mean these idiots hold onto kursi for an indefinite period of time!...
Interesting thought. First I don't think we should classify as what NS did as merely irresponsible. The PM of a country endangering the life of its COAS is not irresponsible but pre-osterous and benign. It is akin to treason and a very grave crime. And to top it, asking the COAS (the highest mliltary ranking officer) of your country to go land in the number one enemy country cannot be even put in legitimate words. I don't think we should have such an imbalance in our perception of justice when the subject is NS on one hand and the Army on the other.
Your second point about no justification for the coup, I think you are right to some extent. My view would be that the reason for the coup stating Pakistan is in danger is deception and provided legitimacy to the coup and ofcourse NS was already at odds with the SC, which blessed the PCO then.
Maybe NS should have been removed and put through a military tribunal and let the rest of the government function but I don't know if that was possible. What are your thoughts?
Re: Your View on the Army
So the 60 year history of Pak Army is subject to what happened a few months ago.
Army has itself shot in the foot in last 8 years. Musharraf's rule has brought more shame to the army and brought too close to the civil war. Zia regime was corrupt and what not, but I don't believe army was that much disprespected and country was not on brink of civil war.
Re: Your View on the Army
Army has itself shot in the foot in last 8 years. Musharraf's rule has brought more shame to the army and brought too close to the civil war. Zia regime was corrupt and what not, but I don't believe army was that much disprespected and country was not on brink of civil war.
It could also be because Army never existed in parts of Pakistan where it is now. Those same people hate each other and cannot live with each other, their tribal anomosities speak well of their peaceful attitudes. So do you not want the country purged of terrorist elements or people who prefer not to live by the law of the land? If you do, then explain how we can do it when they are being bombed on one end of the border whereas on the other end they regroup and if they are told that the Pakistani side of the border is not for their training activities they turn against the government. Please accompany your criticism with solutions or suggestions.
Re: Your View on the Army
Interesting thought. First I don't think we should classify as what NS did as merely irresponsible. The PM of a country endangering the life of its COAS is not irresponsible but pre-osterous and benign. It is akin to treason and a very grave crime. And to top it, asking the COAS (the highest mliltary ranking officer) of your country to go land in the number one enemy country cannot be even put in legitimate words. I don't think we should have such an imbalance in our perception of justice when the subject is NS on one hand and the Army on the other.
Your second point about no justification for the coup, I think you are right to some extent. My view would be that the reason for the coup stating Pakistan is in danger is deception and provided legitimacy to the coup and ofcourse NS was already at odds with the SC, which blessed the PCO then.
Maybe NS should have been removed and put through a military tribunal and let the rest of the government function but I don't know if that was possible. What are your thoughts?
That is why we need a strong impartial judiciary. If we had an independent judiciary they would have acted quickly to defuse the situation. The CJ would have asked the military to ensure safe landing of the plane, asked Nawaz to leave, asked President Tarar to appoint a caretaker PM and reinstated Musharraf as COAS.
As for Nawaz's crime I still believe that there was no malicious intent involved in what he did i.e. he did not want to kill Mush and other people on the plane. So that would have to be taken into acccount by a military court or Supreme Court when adjudicating on the matter. It was a desperate impulsive measure. He was mainly trying to avoid a military coup. He should have thought of the consequences i.e. endangering the lives of so many people rather than his kursi.
Re: Your View on the Army
It could also be because Army never existed in parts of Pakistan where it is now. Those same people hate each other and cannot live with each other, their tribal anomosities speak well of their peaceful attitudes. So do you not want the country purged of terrorist elements or people who prefer not to live by the law of the land? If you do, then explain how we can do it when they are being bombed on one end of the border whereas on the other end they regroup and if they are told that the Pakistani side of the border is not for their training activities they turn against the government. Please accompany your criticism with solutions or suggestions.
Brother, these issues and their proposed solutions have been dealt/discussed before in this very forum. Border sealing is the very first step in my opinion, without sealing borders no matter how many operations we conduct they will continue to hop from one place to the other. Secondly, we need to identify elements within army who are supporting/turning-blind-eye to these terrorists/extremists.
Re: Your View on the Army
Brother, these issues and their proposed solutions have been dealt/discussed before in this very forum. Border sealing is the very first step in my opinion, without sealing borders no matter how many operations we conduct they will continue to hop from one place to the other. Secondly, we need to identify elements within army who are supporting/turning-blind-eye to these terrorists/extremists.
Border sealing is effective to prevent cross border movement but its consequences will give rise to just as much resentment and cause uprisings and the same pattern of extermist activities.
In the Army people developed these assets i.e. jihadi minded people. If you expect that they will support rounding them up, its foolish in the least to expect that. The core of people who made these assets needed to be first debunked from power to eradicate the cause for which these people were bred. Even if they agree to help eliminate their former aides, expect unwarranted help as well under the covers.
Re: Your View on the Army
Border sealing is effective to prevent cross border movement but its consequences will give rise to just as much resentment and cause uprisings and the same pattern of extermist activities.
It may lead to resentment but if their supplies are cutoff they won't be able to do much other than cry (may be some violence here and there in first few days/weeks) but it will die its natural death.
[quote]
In the Army people developed these assets i.e. jihadi minded people. If you expect that they will support rounding them up, its foolish in the least to expect that. The core of people who made these assets needed to be first debunked from power to eradicate the cause for which these people were bred. Even if they agree to help eliminate their former aides, expect unwarranted help as well under the covers.
[/quote]
Right there... thats what I meant, we need to purge army from such elements, can we do it?
Re: Your View on the Army
I think its important to make a distinction here. The common Pakistani serving in the army is making a living, working hard and has all the right intentions.
The real criminals are the Pakistani military elites. These elite think they own Pakistan and history proves that their behavior reflects this thinking. These drunken sons of bi*tches are the reason Pakistan is in the crappy state that we find it in. While our neighboring country is embarked on a democratic progressive path. We still have to hear a dim witted f*ck face like Musharraf telling us what we can and can not say about him.
These military elites ensure 80% of Pakistan's GDP goes to military, leaving almost nothing behind for anything else. Check out the lifestyle of these military elites... and what are their accomplishments???? What do they have to show for all this money spent on military? Zip.
The sooner Pakistanies put these a*s holes in their place the better. They belong in barracks to serve not to rule. They are paid to protect us not kill us. Having seen the lifestyle of these elites it really disgusts me to my core. First shot fired by the enemy and these haram khor elite generals will pee their pants and run abroad like little girls.
We Pakistanies should socially boycott the existing military elites just like we should boycott haram khorr politicians, religious fanatics and others.