Your View on the Army

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

A question for all Pakistanis.
Like many others, I too have relatives and freinds in the army. I have close relatives who are\were high ranking officers.
The army was once a respected institution, being an army officer was a position of great respect in Pakistan at one time. They were the saviours of the nation, people who were a cut above the average corrupt civilian.
In light of recent activities, what is your view on the army.
We know:
-They are fighting a war against their own civilians.
-They are involved in kidnapping and torturing innocent Pakistanis.
-They are supporting a tyrant who is widely hated in the country.
-They have usurped a good portion of the national wealth.
-They are actively involved in making decisions that have lead to the destruction of both the independant media and the judiciary.
-Elements within the army may be actively working against our own national interest.

What is your view on the army now. Is this an occupying army? Is this an army of opressors?
Should civilian leaders now work agains the army to slowly scale it back?

I’m interested to know peoples view on the matter.

2

Re: Your View on the Army

I never had a good opinion about the Army, because they always had their own agenda. However Musharraf as country's leader, did a commendable job. He did'nt have to, as his rule was illegal. But he did, kudos for that.

Dry Shampoo.
3

Re: Your View on the Army

Army is a curse and liablity for Pakistan. Its the only Army in the world that has sliced its own country and kept the favourite part so it can rape forever and ever and ever. Eating up 80% of the budget and doing haraam khori. Did two unsuccessful attempts on India in 1965 and 1999 to gain some support from public, aided with some heart warming songs and other emotional blackmailings. Both the time, our Army was the aggressor (however they fooled nation for quarter century that it was India who attacked at night time), gained nothing but sympathy from public and confirmed the budget allocations for years to come.

Right now the impotent generals have led down nation on every front. Failed to deal with stupid jihaadiz, messing up with their own people, raping nation's daughters and deporting them, busy administering govt and private firms, fauji foundation empire and running biggest land mafia.

This white elephant is keeping the country intact only for their own good, otherwise they have done all the damage to the country's unity.

4

Re: Your View on the Army

It is the same military and it is doing the same things that it has been doing for the last fourty-fifty years. Only thing different and new this time is the ideology and ethnicity of people it is fighting now. That is why you felt proud of the army before and now you feel that it is fighting its own people.

5

Re: Your View on the Army

^ exactly, we all know how fair-colored Pakistanis treated Fish eating majority. But you're right, rest of the Pakistan is just discovering the real face of booted men.

The country is in seige by these thugs since 1958. May God help us!

Im scared ..
6

Re: Your View on the Army

Abt army only phrase fitting them is "Biting the hand that feeds"....

They simply can't do wot they r suppose to do... i think the all the core commander post should be handed over to civilians professional and COAS, and other such position should also be given to civilians and a very strict policy should be implemented to keep track of the perfromance and stop all sorts of corruption in army.

7

Re: Your View on the Army

The only real solution to this is simple. If and when the people of Pakistan recover control of the country each and every one of the uniformed men who helped Musharraf should be charged with treason and punished for their actions. That includes Mushy (of course) and all the other general who helped him along the way. Heck, even go back to the corps commanders who helped him with the original coup in 1999, all violated the constitution and broke the law of the land. They should be dealth with like the criminal they are.

Rate how has been your day today
8

Re: Your View on the Army

:salam:

This is a question that rings in the mind of almost every Pakistani nowadays. A good portion of my family itself is in the forces.

In part I think the very fact that we put our army on a pedestal has made them into this arrogant and egotistical monster we hate to see now. They are not saviours, but they are people just like anyone else whose job is to defend the country. Saviours are those who are not trained or bred for this purpose and yet they go out and fight in times of need. The problem with many Pakistani’s is that cannot psychologically accept that Army is also full of humans who are subject to faults and wordly desires just as much as anyone else. If they were accepted as a part of society with a defined function then people would not see their hopes shattered and stayed dis-illusioned.

Lets not claim we know. Evidence is scarce and tampered in every case, so we can only judge by political outcomes and possible motives or even sincere effort of people to what they claim their actions are subject to. If we want to have a fair discussion then lets not start out with presumptuous talk like WE KNOW.

They are not fighting a war but an insurgency or rebellion. First should our own civilians be judged for the actions that destabilize the country. If you do not believe that we should control those who are digging a hole in our ship, then this would be a moot point to discuss. Their actions can be debated later. Its first the sense of justice that you have that is important to begin with. Accountability should be on both sides is what I believe. What is your stance?

Yes, I agree they have kidnapped and tortured Pakistani’s. Tell me if they were innocent then why would they need to be picked up and tortured to extract information. Do you think the army enjoys picking up people and torturing them for fun. Lets focus on the reasons first here before we focus on the actions and procedures on how it should be done.

Depends on who you talk to. The most loud voice does not always represent the majority.

In terms of unfair benefits I agree. There benefits should not be substantially different.

Let us not forget that it was their decisions that led to its freedom to begin with. And there is no media in the world that is exempt from a proper code of conduct. Lets not confuse being reckless with freedom.

There are always traitors. Depends on how much influence they wield. And secondly, working against the country as in conspiring to destabilize with external forces or propagating policies which they think is in the best interest of the country yet not viewed popularly by many or by a certain influential segment of society. What do we define is in our national interest, can we hear that from you.

Sana Safinaz Lawn 2011
9

Re: Your View on the Army

May be you need to learn how elections are held in Pak.
Do you know that number of under 18s who voted in the last election, was less than 2%.

10

Re: Your View on the Army

LOL Do you know that number of under 18s who voten in Canada last election
0%

11

Re: Your View on the Army

It is a widely held view among human rights activists that the army has attacked civilians in said conflicts. That for me strips away even a shred of goodness in what they have done in these conflicts.

Your point is painfully absurd. You agree that they have illegally kidnapped and tortured Pakistani civilians? EVEN if they WERE terrorists this is wrong, regardless there is a great deal of uncertainty surrounding the status of these missing peoples. Look up details on Masood Janjua for more information
http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/26/nat5.htm
Secondly if someone is a political opponent, be it a member of PML, a lawyer or a judge - does it mean it is reasonable to subject them to torture or illegal confinement?

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/561/pakistan-terrorism
A neutral Western source confirms that the vast, vast majority of Pakistanis are opposed to this little tin pot despot Mushy

Good to see you agree that they have stolen our national wealth.

Again a moot point. So you give birth to a child, then you kill it - so you are in the right? I think not.

This is a point of vast debate on many various points. But for one thing I could argue that the armies theft of the national wealth, stranglehold on national politics and agitation in Kashmir to keep itself relevant vis a vis the India conflict are all sell-outs on our national interest… but even moer simply, it seems the current Mushy led govt. may have dont the ultimate sell out.

http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/bericht/168072

12

Re: Your View on the Army

Well said!

13

Re: Your View on the Army

I thought you would have things to say on your own rather than providing links.

Human rights activits though support a noble and righteous cause but most of the time they thrive on borderline views and blow them out of proportion. Can you show me when the army of any country has not been the favorite obsession of human rights activists. I am not against them but they demonize untold truths. Can you prove the Army has willingly attacked civilians without a cause behind it? Lets hear both sides of the story in any given conflict in the interest of fairness. What do you think about the civilians who attack the Army for vengeance?

Not every thing requires a police warrant especially when the police is not involved in it. Rounding up traitors and their accomplices, to a country is not illegal. I’m just asking you what benefit is it to the Army to round up innocent people who have no shady connections? Please tell me. Political opponents, if breaking the law should pay as well. Being a political opponent does not give you the right to violate the law. And yes, I would agree if political opponents are rounded up for payback once a party comes in power, then it is wrong. This is not exclusive to the Army, infact civilian governments in Pakistan follow this trend more closely.

This shows you level of comprehension about Pakistan, when you quote a western neutral source says people are against him. How much people are against will be reflected in the elections not opinion polls.

When you give birth to a child you teach it to behave properly not kill it. The media/judiciary is being taught how to behave and this is their first lesson in upbringing.

I am in no way saying that Army should not be confined to its original purpose but blanket statements which make the civilian politicians look like Angels and as if they have nothing to do with where Pakistan stands now is an understatement. The positives and negatives of both government and opposition need to be coalesced not segregated so the strategy as a whole is productive and encompassing of our national interests. The attitude of I am right and you are wrong is a trait common to both government and opposition at all times in Pakistan.

14

Re: Your View on the Army

I'm all for that. That is the only way we can prevent future coups. These morons have no bloody business in running the country.

My rishta situation (again).....
15

Re: Your View on the Army

And what about the people who supported Ayub and Zia! They should also be dragged out of their graves and hanged.

16

Re: Your View on the Army

The Army as a whole is a noose around the countries neck, particularly the high ups...
As individuals, the Army is comprised of many repectable and good people at almost all levels.
At the end of the day, Pakistan and her army will be better of if the Army ceases to play a role in her politics and concentrates on her defense.

What make up with green dress
17

Re: Your View on the Army

I respect army as an institution but I want them to stop playing a role in politics and behave like true professionals for once. Our founder Quaid-e-Azam clearly saw NO role for them in politics.

18

Re: Your View on the Army

Bring a politician like Quaid-e-Azam with his integrity, and I assure you that no one from any force, including army, would dare to kick such politicians out of power.

If army kicks politicians out of power, fault lies with politicians not army. People in army just like any Pakistanis think about Pakistan as much, if not more. Pakistani forces consist of around a million people that are always there to give their lives for Pakistan and come from every sector of society (especially middle and lower class) and from all provinces. They are also voters and have their own political affiliations. So, no one can say that they are any different than other Pakistanis or want any bad for Pakistan.

Put yourself in the shoe of an army chief. What would you do if you see that a politician in post of Prime Minister is doing injustice to the post, and along with his friends and associates robbing the country instead of serving the country, and civilians in position (Police and judiciary) are not doing anything to stop them?

Army is not employee of any individual or politicians to stay loyal to them. Army is employee of Nation and their loyalty should be to the Nation. It is not duty of army to be guard dog of a country looking at only external threat, as Nation is not paying them for that, Nation is paying them to see that no threat, be that external or internal, harm the interest of Nation.

Most citizens have no access to see what is going on in the corridor of power neither they have knowledge of everything about the person they vote. Voters do not know how much the person they voted earns, what tax they paid, what is their wealth, how much their wealth incrased during them in office. How that person lives, what they spend, what bank balance that person have, did they served the country with honesty or was doing corruption in office, what was the behaviour of them in job, actually, voters do not know anything about the person they vote, including what that person is really doing when in power.

They judge politicians from their promises, but it is duty of government employees (civil servants who get their pay from taxes) that anyone that gets elected does not harm the country, and army is also government employee (who gets their pay from taxes) and it is also their duty to see if anyone that get elected is not harming the country, or looting and plundering wealth of the country.

India Vs SriLanka ... ICC World Cup Final on 2nd April
19

Re: Your View on the Army

You're thinking is flawed to say the least. Armed forces job is well defined in the constitution, and they must do as they're told by the civilian leaders who are elected by the people. This is the concept of representative democracy where people are the masters of their own destiny. The constitution is as important as the country itself, and people who agreed to become part of Pakistan as a nation were guaranteed certain rights, and those right are guaranteed in the constitution, which NO army general can suspend.

Armed forces job is to defend nation from external threats, and assist when called upon by elected leaders in case of law and oder break down. They have no business in running the country, killing our own people & making them disappear, or running businesses or acting like a land mafia, which what they have been doing for long time now.

20

Re: Your View on the Army

First of all as the armed forces are fed through tax payers money they have to be loyal to the nation....unfortunately our armed forces all through the history of our country have been loyal to United States of America and their own personal economic intrests.

Our armed forces have played a big role in breaking the country in 1971. They were never held liable for this and never held liable for any of their susequent blunders. They subjected our country to all sorts of jihadi adventurism and ethnic divisions. They actively took part in breaking institutions, engineered every election held, took control of the governance every now and then, never respected the law and their own role as law abiding citizens.

Now a million dollar question is not what their role has been in the past. There is no doubt they never respected the constitution and law of the land and results for all this adventurism is today very evident and without any doubt, the real question is how the nation will get rid of this bootwalas adventurism and make them respect the law>>>>

India Vs SriLanka ... ICC World Cup Final on 2nd April