All the pakistanis were hindus before you were converted to muslim religon by the Arab invaders so if you abuse hindus you are abusing your forefathers
INDOZ, what is the point in talking these things. Everyone knows that. Keep cool. It does not serve any purpose to get angry and write when Pakis write on Hindus or whatever. If western reader reads it, he will find it against his usual secular ideology and reinforcing his opinions on fundamentalist Islam, so msaqibj type mesages are fine for Indian. If Indian or Pakistani reader reads it, he is unlikely change opinions, so why bother.
I think it is a good topic! The muslims need to be reminded where they came from and where they are going!
The muslims of the sub-continent were all hindus before their forced or enticed conversion to Islam.
Muslims, as you have observed, shun their Hindu heritage because their aqeeda/faith instructs that they shun people of other religions, denoted kafirs.
In an era that stresses peaceful co-existence, Fundamentalist Islam continues to be reactionary and rascist.
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited June 16, 1999).]
Muslims must carryout actions according to what is permissible in the Qur'an and Sunnah- from an Islamic point of view.
Its when so called Muslims??? use their own initiatives and minds to solve a problem when it goes wrong - Muslims should not be so reactionary.
The Muslims from Arabia did not invade, they where instructed by Allah(swt) - the Creator of the known Universe, using the Qur'an and Sunnah to spread the deen of Islam to those who saw right from wrong. Islam brought a new justice at a time when people in those regions where being subjugated and ruled like slaves. Worshipping their own manufacture and providing whatever dignity they had left to the rich hierarchy. This form of mental and physical bondage cannot be tolerated as it formed a barrier against human advancement and understanding. The Hindu Brahmans being at the very top wanted to keep their hold on the masses. Thereby waging war against the Muslims. Many Hindu's converted to Islam by their own conviction and they fought against the Hindu hierarchy. Please note that it is forbidden for a Muslim to force or imposed Islam upon anyone (Qur'an and Sunnah), you need a burning conviction in the heart to embrace Islam. The Muslims wanted to give an opportunity for Hindus to hear what Islam had to offer, yet this was not to be as the Hindu hierarchy wanted to keep the people in bondage. What resulted was a war, started by the Hindu's and this led to their successful defeat. Since Islam came into the region, the people both Muslim and Non-Muslims had flourished and great advancements were achieved.
If you carryout a impartial study of How Islam came into the region and what it brought to the peoples of that region you will understand better what Islam has done for the Hindu's. As for mentioning Hindu or Arian Heritage, this from an Islamic prospective is all rubbish. I do recommend that Muslims read up on Hinduism and Arian race to see first hand how this system was created to place people into shackles. The Arians first thought of the intellectual bondage theory and they implemented it 5000 years ago. Since then the Hindus have used this theory to subjugate the people.
I recommend all Hindu's who have not yet embraced Islam to look into why so many Hindu's have converted to Islam. Islam is a salvation for mankind and I do implore that you look into it. Walk into a Mosque to find out more. It can mean the difference between a life of misery knowing little or nothing or knowing the answer to your own existence and future. Life does not end when you die!
This message was not written to offend, only to keep the record straight.
"All the pakistanis were hindus before you were converted to muslim religon by the
Arab invaders so if you abuse hindus you are abusing your forefathers"
We can use this above statement as a "tit for tat" strategy but it isn't valid, Since there are hundreds/thousands of Muslims in Pakistan as well as India whose Forefathers were originally Persian or Arabs.
So Imranz what do you consider yourself ?
My post of June 16, if you note was edited; the part that was edited out exactly dealt with claims like yours - my suggestion was to laugh and walk away.
So Imranz, I'll laugh and walk away!
AM,
Everyone is entitle to their opinion. If you wanna stick to what you believe in, I have no problem in whether you "laugh and walk away" on other comments, or disregard it as complete foolishness. Likewise, I am entitle to represent my views.
As for your question, I do not have forefathers who were hindus or were from "Hindu-mat".
By the way, thanks for sharing your laughing suggestion on my post.
Prophet Muhammed SAW said in a hadith, meaning more or less, " Every child born in this World born as a Muslim, its his/her parents make him Jew or Christian." So no matter who my parents were, I am glad that I am muslim. I feel sorry for grand grand parents, if they were non-muslims.
Mr ZZ my idea is not to offend any one here and I will take this oppotunity to add that the hindus should not attack any muslim just because they are muslim.
Mr Abdulmalick yes its very important to know where we come from and where we are heading.
Mr Akber I don't know how much do you know about the history but I find it very hard to digest that muslim were instructed by Allah to spread muslim religion. Allah or god is so great I don't think that such pious power would mingle in to converting people into other religion but according to you Allah did this then Allah must have told the other people that my religion is better then yours in your own word you are proving to the world that people did not embrace but Allah had to intervene. But the history says some thing else. There was no forcible convertion upto Jahangir but it was Aurangzeb who started the forcible convertion not only that he killed his own brother and put his father in the jail. It was at this point the sikh has to fight a war against the ruthless ruler. The sikh Guru Tegbahadur was beheaded thats where we have now Guruduwara Sisganj in Delhi nad Guru Gobind Singh and his two sons were killed all in the name of Allah. How pathetic.
Yes Mr Imranz I think I better laugh away.
Mr Abrar so you think every child born is a muslim and then is converted in other religion that means that muslim religion is so weak that it can not keep a child as muslim who is born as muslim. I am not saying that but you did.
I started this talk with the idea that we should respect religion as it is pious and should not be abused we as human being can have defferences but please do not bring the religion in to it.
I don’t mind abusing my forefathers
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/biggrin.gif
Mr. Indoz Allah does not force Islam on anyone, its the choice of people. That is why when parents teach their kids whatever they think is right, Allah does not intervene. If child has thirst to learn the truth, Allah shows him the right path. If you are famaliar with Quran, there is story of Abraham. If you are not , then I wil take a small portion of story of Prophet Abraham. His father was idol worshiper, and used to make idols. Abraham did not accept religon of his father, and he always wanted to know about truth, not only Allah showed him truth, He made Abraham His prophet.
Regards
Errr no....my forefathers were Jews and never Hindus :)hehehe.
**
[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited June 18, 1999).]
Hey indoz....where r u getting ur history lessons from? Aurangzeb Alamgir killed his brother cuz HE tried to attack aurangzeb. And he put his father in jail cuz his own father tried to attack him. Don't forget to mention the reasons.
Aurangzeb killed his father because that old man was not dying and allowing Auranzeb to get the seat. He had to kill his brother since his brother was legitimate choice after that.
So our moderator Imranz has come up with opinion that his forefathers were not Hindu (one of pure muslims) and hence he has all the right to abuse hindus.
Pretty interesting arguments in this thread.
In a completely Muslim majority state like Indonesia, you can see picture of Ganesha on Rupiyah note. So they do not hate discard or fight ther past. In subcontinent, however, the reconcilation has been messed up by politics.
So, what was our ancestor’s religious beliefs before their conversion to Islam?
Islam did not arrive in India until a century after the death of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and prior to that, the whole area stretching from India to Afghanistan and north were either Hindus, Buddhist, Animist or Pagans; Persia, before Islam, was Zoroastarian, or fire-worshippers.
IndOZ made a very humble observation when he said:
“abuse hindus and you are abusing your forefathers.”
And, I commend him (IndOZ) for that.
Source: Based on information from William C. Brice, ed., An Historical Atlas of Islam, Leiden, 1981, 47-53; and C. Collin Davies, An Historical Atlas of the Indian Peninsula, London, 1959, 15. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/pktoc.html
The initial entry of Islam into India came in the first century after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (see Basic Tenets of Islam , ch. 2).
The Umayyad caliph in Damascus sent an expedition to Balochistan and Sindh in 711 led by Muhammad bin Qasim (for whom Karachi’s second port is named). The expedition went as far north as Multan but was not able to retain that region and was not successful in expanding Islamic rule to other parts of India.
Coastal trade and the presence of a Muslim colony in Sindh, however, permitted significant cultural exchanges and the introduction into the subcontinent of saintly teachers. Muslim influence grew with conversions.
Almost three centuries later, the Turks and the Afghans spearheaded the Islamic conquest in India through the traditional invasion routes of the northwest. Mahmud of Ghazni (979-1030) led a series of raids against Rajput kingdoms and rich Hindu temples and established a base in Punjab for future incursions.
Mahmud’s tactics originated the legend of idol-smashing Muslims bent on plunder and forced conversions, a reputation that persists in India to the present day.
During the last quarter of the twelfth century, Muhammad of Ghor invaded the Indo-Gangetic Plain, conquering in succession Ghazni, Multan, Sindh, Lahore, and Delhi. His successors established the first dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate, the Mamluk Dynasty (mamluk means “slave”) in 1211 (however, the Delhi Sultanate is traditionally held to have been founded in 1206).
The territory under control of the Muslim rulers in Delhi expanded rapidly. By mid-century, Bengal and much of central India was under the Delhi Sultanate. Several Turko-Afghan dynasties ruled from Delhi: the Mamluk (1211-90), the Khalji (1290-1320), the Tughlaq (1320-1413), the Sayyid (1414-51), and the Lodhi (1451-1526).
As Muslims extended their rule into southern India, only the Hindu kingdom of Vijayanagar remained immune, until it too fell in 1565. Although some kingdoms remained independent of Delhi in the Deccan and in Gujarat, Malwa (central India), and Bengal, almost all of the area in presentday Pakistan came under the rule of Delhi.
The sultans of Delhi enjoyed cordial, if superficial, relations with Muslim rulers in the Near East but owed them no allegiance. The sultans based their laws on the Quran and the sharia (see Glossary) and permitted non-Muslim subjects to practice their religion only if they paid jizya (see Glossary) or head tax.
The sultans ruled from urban centers–while military camps and trading posts provided the nuclei for towns that sprang up in the countryside. Perhaps the greatest contribution of the sultanate was its temporary success in insulating the subcontinent from the potential devastation of the Mongol invasion from Central Asia in the thirteenth century.
The sultanate ushered in a period of Indian cultural renaissance resulting from the stimulation of Islam by Hinduism. The resulting “Indo-Muslim” fusion left lasting monuments in architecture, music, literature, and religion.
The sultanate suffered from the sacking of Delhi in 1398 by Timur (Tamerlane) but revived briefly under the Lodhis before it was conquered by the Mughals.
My ancestors were those Arab invaders.
It seems here are more fanatics then moderater. To al these fanatics I have a story to tell you.
Once a frog fell in the well so he was living in this well for him the whole universe was the wall of the well and the sky because thats what he could see. Grow up guys and gals.
Mr./Ms. ZZ,
For your sake, I would ask you to go back and reread my two postings in this thread and explain to me where did I mention the statment that you associated with me:
"and hence he has all the right to abuse hindus"
If you are having problems comprehending my posting, I would be more than happy to paraphrase them for you conveince, so that you wouldn't have to make up statements on my behalf.
[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited June 20, 1999).]