You Sunnis don't know much about Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Its beyond at least my imagination that Personalities who sacrificed their lives for the sake of the religion be accused with such lame and harsh remarks.

Cant you see, it is their sacrifices that we are born out of Muslim mothers?, It is their tireless efforts and unslept nights that today Islam is considered the fastest growing religion, otherwise their is no doubt that today we were among the cursed ones.

Can you wash their blood with your hands?

Being a Muslim, this is absolutely not an acceptable behavior to raise fingers on personalities for whom you even don’t know a speck. All you have learned is from your madarsas and ulemas and not interrogated by yourself, this is the major grave sign of today’s Muslims.

How unfortunate is one who is a Muslim by Chance and not Choice.

Think in a civilized way atleast.

Attitude like this will not fulfill anything except destroying your generations with your own hands.

::: PS1:

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahl_e_Sunnah:
**

.. and that data base that you asked me to look into well that's huge, and it has not titles, it's all numbers, it's easier with a title. I hope this is sufficient, as U can see the quote that I have given can be found in:

sahih Bukhari, Chapter: About the saying of the sick, vol 2

**
[/quote]

Ahl-e-Sunnah…

I browsed the index of al’Jamaya al’Sahi Bukhari, Vol2, but there is no such chapter, may be there is another name for that. Since you have read that tradition by yourself, it will easier for you to find that. Please do me a favor, get me the page and chapter number. I will appreciate that.

::: PS2: I will write on this issue later, in the mean time get me the reference. please. I will be out for the week, be back soon.

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited August 06, 2000).]

22

Ahl_e_Sunnah!!........>>The Companions were meeting in the Messenger's house, 3 days before he died.<<

does't it ring any bell that Prophet, pbuh died three days after the so called refusal of Omar, ra. Historians have reported that Prophet's health became somewhat better also after this episode and that he went to masjid for prayers. Now if it was something so important, which he wanted to put it in writing, would't he had done so later??? But yet he went to mosque and ordered Abu Bakr to lead the prayers. Afterall Ali, ra, was there at the time. So my advice to you is do use your own brain.

I can also qoute numerous arguments to deal and refute your kharafat, but that would only intimidate you and would only lengthen the discussion for no purposes but to make a show of division amongst us. While various people here have advised you to stay away from controversial topics and remarks, you are bent upon repeating the same rhetoric. Most of what you have concluded, is hatred for sunni's. But that is your point of view. May I invite you to look into the Qura~n, which praises Abu Bakr in the following manner.

The Quran said about Abu-Bakr :

9:40

"If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbeliever's drove him out, the second of the two; when they (Muhammad and Abu Bakr) were in the cave, he said to his companion (Abu bakr): "Be not sad or afraid, surely, Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His Sakinah (calmness, tranquillity, peace) upon him, and strengthened him with force (angles) which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while the Word of Allah that became the uppermost; and Allah is All-mighty, All-Wise."

23

Baykhatr,

what's up with that man?! if U had read the whole thread U would have known what the discussion was about, we were discussing the characteristics of Imam Umer(RA). and by the way I'm sunni so don't U be cussing me up.
and if U want to look into the matter of Y the Prophet(pbuh) did not write anything in those three days, it was becuase even if he did it would not have been respected.
and what's this thing Ure talking about bent on controversy, U know what GupShup is...it's a discussion forum, U post URe views and I will post mine, whatever they may be. and those proofs that U were talking about I would love to read them, plz post them, as it can only assist me in finding the right path.
and I again urge everyone to read that book, it is by a sunni scholar: "then I was guided" it can be found at yahoo.com just type in that title I've given above.
wasalam

"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous

24

zalim bro i dont know why you are unable to find the given refrence. I have had a look myself and found it within the minutes.

What hazratOmar(ra) said was very paining for rasool (pbuh) and in my opinion he shouldnt have done it. And another thing is that Abu Bakr didnt lead the prayers. At the time hazoor (pbuh) was very ill, Abu Bukr (ra) was being sent away on some mission under super-vision of some 18/19 year old. I found it yesterday too.

You have a look at Sahihs and you will find out.
Very confused
Asif

25

IMAM ALI'S DESIGNATION BY THE PROPHET.

WE BELIEVE that the prophet, in several occasions has introduced and
designated Imam Ali as his successor by the decree of God, an instance of
which was in the GHADIR KHOMM somewhere near JOHFEH When the
prophet was returning from his last pilgrimage (HAJJ) he made a speech for a
great gathering of his companions and followers, saying:_ . "Do I not have
priority over your souls?" "Yes, of course" .
they all answered. "Then all of you know that," continued the prophet. The
MASTER of whoever I
am, Ali shall be his master.8 Here we do not intend to go deep through
reasoning to prove our ideas, We also do not intend to insist upon our
assertion. We may only add here that such an important traditin is not
something to be ignored easily, or changing what it means, as by taking the
MASTER=MOWLA to mean a friend particularly when we see that the
prophet has put so much stress and emphasis upon the word, so as to make it
known to all! .

Is this not the same case that; IBNI ASIR has brought in his important history
book saying:_ .
"At the begining of his prophetic mission, the prophet was ordered by
GodQURØN _ S26: 214) to admonish his nearest kindred. He invited some
fourty men of them to a dinner, and by a miracle, he fed all of them from a
single portion of food! He then made a speech and finally said to them:
`which of you is willing to give me a truthful hand in this Divine Mission of
mine, and become my brother and successor among all?"9
No one answered him there, cxcept Imam Ali, who said:_I will be your
companion and minister: and the prophet pointed at Imam Ali and said: He is
my brother and my successor among you. Thus we see the prophet to
designate his VICEGERENT and Imam, from the begining of his missionThe
same case also happened at the end of his mission when the prophet was at
his death bed. He asked those who were round him to get him a pen AND
paper to write an order which would prevent them from giong astray. one of
them rejected and refused to provide pen and paper and even accused the
prophet of uttering delirious speech! .
to repeat again, we hereby only declare our belief in brief and a little
reasoning.10, 52 _ EACH IMØM EMPHASIZES HIS SUCCSSOR .

WE BELIEVE that each one of the twelve Imams are introduced and
emphasized by the previous ones.
The first of them was Imam Alli the son of ABUTALIB, who was succeeded
by Imam Hassan his
first son, and Imam Hussain the MASTER OF THE MARTYRS his second
son. The third Imam was Ali the son of Imam Hussain then it came to his son
Mohammad Albagher_ Then his son Ali IBN MOOSA ALREZA. The nineth
of them was Mohammad Altaghi_ then his son Ali AlnaghiAfter him was his
son Imam HASSAN ASGARI who was the father of Almahdi the twelfth and
the last of all whom we believe to be already livingThe idea of a SAVIOUR
who has to come to fill the world with justice, when it has been full of
oppressions is accepted almost by all the Muslims of different sects, and
many of the SONNI scholars and men of knowledge have declared that in
their booksA few years ago, in answer to A question about the existence of
ALMAHDI, the Islamic World Relations Society, issued a pamphlet to
emphasize that of a surety he will come, and in that pamphlet many evidences
and documents were presented to prove that. Many of the Muslims believe
that Almahdi will be born in future, but the SHIITES believe that he has
already been born, and so far he has lived a long life, and by the decree of
God, he shall appear one day to fill the world with justice
53_ NONE OF THE PROPHET'S COMPANION COULD EXCEL IMAM
ALI .

WE BELIEVE that none of the prophet's companions did, or could excel
Imam Ali in any respect; and that Imam was at the highest religious position
other than that of the prophetsOf course we know it unlawful to mispresent
the Imam by overstating him and by exaggerations. Those who prove for him
the position of diety or something like that are all heretics in our sight, as are
those who undervalue him, and we are absolutely disgusted with their belief,
although they might call themselves the SHIITE of Imam Ali and mingle their
names with oursThe leading SHIITES and the orthodox have always rejected
the two groups who overvalue or undervalue the Imam, and have called them,
and taken them as heretics 54_
THE PROPHET'S COMPANIONS AT THE
COURT OF WISDOM AND HISTORY .
WE BELIEVE that there were many great men of devotion and chastity among
the companious of the prophet; but all of them were not so, because the
HOLY QURØN declares many among them as being kypocrites!11 There
were also men who broke their allegiance with the VICEGERENT OF GOD,
after the prophet, and made wars and shed the blood of thousands of Muslims
upon the soilMuslims just because they have been with the prophet or they
carry the title of COMPANION' for themselves? .
In other word, how can we judge that both of the two parties who made the
battles of seffain and jamal were rightful and, on the righteous path? How can
both of the two group of combatants be honest and truthful? .
Some bring forth the foot of religious researches and self exegeis on the
ground by saying that:_Surely one of the two parties was wrong and
oppresive, but as they were taking their decisions by their EXEGESIS, both
parties were on righteousness in the sight of God_This, we cannot accept
easilyHow could one with his own exegesis and self_comprehensions break
his allegiance and loyalty to the VICEGERENT OF GOD, who is entitled to
obedience, and create such fearful wars between Muslims, grouping them and
shedding streams of their blood. with the justification that his exegesis and
self researches have decreed him to do so!? What else then can not be
justified by such prsonal comprehensions and self commentaries? .
Let us be more frank, that every one, even the nearest companions of the
prophet are held in pledge of their deeds and are responsible for what they
have done and have to answer for it:_ .
"The most honoured of you in Allah's sight, is he who is the most virtuous
(CHASTE) of you." .
QURØN _ S49: 13 .
The above holy verse is true for all even for the nearest companions of the
prophetWe therefore have to judge them by their deeds, and we should have a
resonable definition for them all. Those who were truthful at the presence of
the Apostle, at his absence too, did their best to guard the religion and to
observe his commandments. They remained faithful to their covenant and
respected their promisesOn the other hand, those among his companions who
were hypocrites and vexed him, did the same after him whatever they did, was
against Islam and Muslims "You shall find no believer in Allah and the last
judgement to love those who oppose Allah and His Apostle, even though they
be their father, their sons, their brothers, or their nearest kindred.
Allah has inscribed the faith in their hearts and Has strengthened them with a SPIRIT
OF HIS, God will admit them to the GARDENS OF BLISS, beneath which
streams flow, wherein they shall live for ever.
They are the PARTY OF ALLAH, and Allah's party shall achieve felecity."
.
QURØN _ S58: 22 .

We believe that those who harmed the prophet in his presence or absence do
not worth an admireOf course we must not forget that some of the companions
of the prophet showed the utmost truthfulness and sincerity with the greatest
self_sacrifices and have been admired by God Himself and so were a group
who followed them later:_ .
"The vangaurd of Islam; the first of those who forsook their homes, and of
those who gave them aid; and also those who followed them in good deeds:_
Well pleased is Allah with them and they with Allah. For them is prepared
GARDENS OF BLISS, under which streams flow. They dwell there in for
ever. That's the Supreme Felicity .
QURØN _ S9: 100 .
This was our belief in brief about the companions of our prophet
54_ IMAM TAKES HIS KNOWLEDGE FROM THE PROPHET .
According to the order of our prophet:_ To observe QURØN and HIS
NEAREST KINS': and also to the innocency of the Imams, our jurisprudence
of divine Law, is also based upon the words, deeds and consents; (doing
something in front of them without having their objection) of the innocent
Imams. The three factors, i.e. words, deeds, and consent of our Imams are
accepted proofs for us. We have to note also that whatever an Imama says; it
is a narration of the prophet through his fathers. This is to say what ever an
Imam says it has been said by the prophetImam BAGHER told one of his
students named JAABIR:_ "That which we convey to you is what we have
taken out of a treasure that belongs to our prophet Mohammad."12 Through
another tradition from Imam JAAFAR SØDIQ we read:_ "Some one asked
him a question and the Imam answered him. The man began to dispute about
the answer. Imam told him:The answer I gave you was that of the prophet
and you have no right to dispute."

Another remarkable point to note is about the important books on collected
traditions such as; KAAFI _ TAHZIB ESTEBSAR_ and MAN LA
YAHZAROHOL FAGHIH, that we have and we use. Although these books
are much trusted in our sight, but still it dosn't mean to us that whatever is
written in them is true and acceptable by usBesides the above mentioned
tradition books we also have the books of WHO IS WHO About
personalities, (ALREJAL=THE MEN) Through such books we investigate
about the personalities of the narrators of the tradidition and also about their
chains of documents and references so as to make sure if a tradition is true
and correct. Therefore, however important and trustworthy a book might be,
to accept a tradition from it has to convince us that it reads and is compatible
with our standard, or else we shall reject itsome Islamic sects have thier own
collection of traditions (HADIS) which they know them to be correct.
(SAHIH) The authors have named their book, `THE CORREC=SAHIH and
some men of importance might have admitted that these are CORRECT, but in
our sight, that tradition is correct which is reasonably proved to have been
said by the prophet

26

MEANING OF SHIA

Well-Wisher: Shia, as you know, literally means "follower." One of your greatest ulema, Firuzabadi,
in his Qamusu'l-Lughat, says, "The name 'Shia' commonly means every person who is a friend of Ali
and his Ahle Bait. This name is peculiar to them." Exactly the same meaning is given by Ibn Athir in
Nihayatu'l-Lughat. According to your own commentaries, the word Shia means "follower of Ali Bin
Abu Talib" and was used in this way during the time of the Prophet. In fact, it was the Prophet himself
who introduced the word Shia as meaning "follower of Ali Bin Abu Talib." And this word was used by
the Holy Prophet about whom Allah says: "Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation
that is revealed." (53:3-4) The Prophet called the followers of Ali "The Shia," the "delivered," and the
"rescued."

Hafiz: Where is such a thing? We have never seen it.

Well-Wisher: We have seen it, and we do not think it proper to conceal facts. Allah condemned
concealers and called them companions of Hell. Allah says, "Surely those who conceal the clear
proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, those it is whom
Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too)." (2:159) "Surely those who conceal any
part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their
bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they
shall have a painful chastisement." (2:170)

Hafiz: If we know the truth and conceal it, I agree we deserve condemnation as revealed in these holy
verses.

Well-Wisher: I hope you keep these two verses in mind so that habit or intolerance may not
overpower you. Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani is one of the most distinguished of your narrators of
hadith. Ibn Khallikan has praised him in his Wafayatu'l-A'ayan' as one of the great Huffaz (men of
wisdom), and one of the most learned narrators of hadith. He also states that the ten volumes of his
Hilyatu'l-Auliya are among the most instructive of books. Salahu'd-din Khalil bin Aibak Safdi writes in
his Wafiy bi'l-Wafiyat about him, "The crown of narrators of hadith, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim, was the
foremost in knowledge, piety, and honesty. He enjoyed a high position in the narration and
understanding of hadith. His best work is Hilyatu'l-Auliya in 10 volumes, consisting of derivations from
the two Sahihs." Muhammad bin Abdullah al-Khatib praises him in Rijali'l-Mishkati'l-Masabih, saying
that he is among the leading narrators of hadith whose narrations are utterly reliable.

In short, this respected scholar and traditionist, the pride of your ulema, relates from Abdullah bin
Abbas through his own chain of narrators in his book Hilyatu'l-Auliya relates: "When the following
verse of the holy Qur'an was revealed: '(As for) those who believe and do good, surely they are the
best of men. Their reward with their Lord is gardens of perpetuity beneath which rivers flow, abiding
therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him; that is for him who
fears his Lord.' (98:7-8), the Holy Prophet, addressing Ali, said: 'O Ali, the best of creatures
(Khairu'l-bariyya) in this holy verse refers to you and your followers (Shia). On the Day of
Resurrection, you and your followers (Shia) shall attain such a position that Allah will be pleased with
you, and you will be pleased with Him.'"

              FURTHER MERITS OF SHIA

Similarly, Abu'l-Muwayyid Muwafiq Bin Ahmad Khawarizmi in the 17th chapter of his Manaqib; Hakim
Abu'l-Qasim Abdullah Bin Abdullahi'l-Haskani, in Shawahidu't-tanzil; Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji
Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib, p. 119, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in Tadhkira, p. 31, Munzir Bin Muhammad Bin Munzir,
and particularly Hakim, have related that Hakim Abu Abdullah Hafiz (one of the greatest of your ulema)
said: based on the testimony of narrators reaching back to Yazid Bin Sharafi'l-Ansari, the scribe of the
Commander of the Faithful, Ali Bin Abu Talib, that Ali said that at the time of the Prophet's death, the
Prophet rested on Ali's chest and said: "You have heard the holy verse: 'Those who believe and do
good deeds, it is they who are the best of creatures.' (98:7) These are your Shia. My and your meeting
place shall be at the fountain of Kauthar (in Paradise). When all created beings assemble for reckoning,
your face will be bright, and you will be identified on that day as the leader of the bright-faced people."

Jalalu'd-din Suyuti, in his Durru'l-Mansur quotes Abu'l-Qasim Ali Bin Hasan (commonly known as Ibn
Asakir Damishqi), who quotes Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari, one of the greatest companions of the
Prophet, as saying that he and others were sitting with the Holy Prophet when Ali Bin Abu Talib came
in. The Holy Prophet said: "I swear by Him Who controls my life that this man (Ali) and his Shia shall
secure deliverance on the Day of Resurrection." At that time the verse cited above was revealed. In the
same commentary, Ibn Adi quotes Ibn Abbas as saying that when the above verse was revealed, the
Prophet said to the Commander of the Faithful, Ali, "You and your followers (Shia) will come on the
Day of Resurrection in such a condition that all of you will be pleased with Allah, and Allah will be
pleased with you."

In the Manaqib of Khawarizmi, the following is related from Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari: "I was in the
presence of the Holy Prophet when Ali joined us, and thereupon the Holy Prophet said: 'It is my
brother that has come to you.' Then, facing towards the Ka'ba, the Prophet took hold of Ali's hand and
said: 'By Him Who controls my life, this Ali and his Shia will be delivered on the Day of Judgement.'

Then he said: 'Ali is the foremost of you all in belief, the most regardful about Allah's pledges, the most
just of you all in deciding matters of the people, the most equitable of you in distributing allowances
among the people, and the highest of you all in rank before Allah.'" On that occasion, the verse cited
above was revealed. In Chapter II of his Sawa'iq, Bin Hajar quotes Hafiz Jamalu'd-Din Muhammad Bin
Yusuf Zarandi Madani (a great scholar of your sect) as saying that when the above verse was revealed,
the Holy Prophet said: "O Ali, you and your Shia are the best of created beings. You and your Shias
will come on the Day of Judgement in such a condition that all of you will be pleased with Allah, and
Allah will be pleased with you. Your enemies will be resentful, and their hands shall be tied round their
necks." Then Ali asked who was his enemy. The Holy Prophet replied, "One who is hostile to you,
and who reviles you."

Allama Samhudi, in Jawahiru'l-Iqdain, on the authority of Hafiz Jamalu'd-Din Zarandi Madani and
Nuru'd-din Ali bin Muhammad bin Ahmad Maliki Makki, known as Ibn Sabbagh, who is regarded as
one of your distinguished scholars and eminent theologians, in his Fusulu'l-Muhimma relates from
Abdullah bin Abbas that when the verse under discussion was revealed, the Prophet said to Ali: "It is
you and your Shias. You and they will come on the Day of Judgement fully pleased and satisfied, while
your enemies will come in grief, with bound hands."

Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Shafi'i, one of your eminent scholars, in his Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, and the
well known anti-Shia scholar, Ibn Hajar, in his Sawa'iq-e Muhriqa narrate from Ummu'l-Mu'minin
Umme Salma, the wife of the Prophet, that the Holy Prophet said: "O Ali, you and your Shias will
abide in Paradise; you and your Shias will abide in Paradise." The well known scholar of Khawarizm,
Muwaffaq bin Ahmad, in his Manaqib, Chapter 19, relates on reliable authority that the Prophet said to
Ali: "In my community you are like the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary." This statement implies that as the
followers of the Prophet Jesus were divided into three groups: the true believers, known as hawari'in,
the Jews, and the exaggerators, who associated him with Allah. In the same way Muslims would
become divided into three groups. One of them would be the Shias, the true believers. The other group
would be Ali's enemies, and the third group would be the exaggerators of his position.

           SHIAS' MERITS PROVEN FROM

                      SUNNI BOOKS

The people then dispersed in response to the call for the Isha prayer. After the prayer, Mulla
Abdu'l-Hayy returned with a commentary by Suyuti, Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, the Musnad of Imam Ahmad
bin Hanbal, and the Manaqib of Khawarizmi. He read from them the hadith Well-Wisher had quoted in
his discussions by way of verification. Since his references had been accurate, the expressions of all
those in the opposite camp changed. In the meantime, in the Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, they came across
another hadith. The Prophet said: "O Ali, on the Day of Judgement, you and your Shias will come
before Allah fully satisfied and pleased, while your enemy will come in grief and with hands bound."

Well-Wisher: These are clear arguments supported by the Book of Allah, by authentic hadith, and
by history. Support for my position comes from the books of your own eminent scholars. These are in
addition to the numerous narrations that exist in the books and commentaries of Shias. Using the
books now before you, I could go on presenting arguments in support of the point under consideration
until tomorrow morning, by the grace of Allah; but I think that what I have presented should be enough
to dispel your doubts about Shias. Respected audience, we Shias are not Jews. We are followers of
the Prophet Muhammad. The originator of the word "Shia" as meaning "the followers of Ali," was not
the accursed Abdullah bin Saba, but the Prophet himself. We never follow any individual without
authoritative arguments in his favor. You said that it was after Uthman that the word "Shia" came to be
used referring to the followers of Ali. In fact, even in the Prophet's day, several noted companions
were called Shias. Hafiz Abu Hatim Razi, in his Az-Zainat, which he compiled for clarifying the
meanings of certain words and phrases current among scholars, says that the first new word that came
into general acceptance in Islam in the days of the Prophet was "Shia." The word was applied to four
prominent companions: Abu Dharr Ghifari, Salman Farsi, Miqdad bin Aswad Kindi, and Ammar Yasir.
Many more hadith were quoted in support of the same point. Now it is for you to consider how it was
possible that during the time of the Prophet four of his chief companions were called Shia. If the
Prophet thought it was innovation, why didn't he forbid the people to use it? The fact is that people
had heard from the Prophet himself that the followers (Shias) of Ali were the inhabitants of Heaven.
They were proud of it and openly called themselves Shias. 

          RANK OF SALMAN, ABU DHARR,

                 MIQDAD, AND AMMAR

You related a hadith from the Prophet saying: "Verily, my companions are like stars; whomever of
them you follow, you will be properly guided." Abu'l-Fida writes in his history that these four men,
who were companions of the Prophet, abstained, along with Ali, from paying allegiance to Abu Bakr,
on the Saqifa day. Why don't you consider their refusal to pay allegiance to be worthy of emulation?
Your own ulema have written that they were loved by Allah and His Prophet. We follow them, as they
followed Ali. Hence, according to your own hadith, we are on the path of guidance.

With your permission, and keeping in view the shortness of time, I present to you a few narrations in
support of my contention that these men were loved by Allah and the Prophet. Both Abu Nu'aim
Isfahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, Vol. I, p. 172, and Ibn Hajar Makki in the fifth hadith of the forty hadith
narrated in Sawa'iq-e Muhriqa in praise of Ali narrated from Tirmidhi, and Hakim from Buraida, that the
Prophet said: "Verily, Allah has commanded me to love four persons and has told me that He loves
them." When the people asked who these four persons were, he said: "Ali bin Abu Talib, Abu Dharr,
Miqdad, and Salman." Again, Ibn Hajar in Hadith No. 39 has narrated from Tirmidhi and Hakim from
Anas bin Malik that the Prophet said: "Paradise is eager for three individuals, Ali, Ammar, and
Salman." Isn't the action of these eminent companions of the Holy Prophet a model for other Muslims?
Isn't it shameful that in your view the companions are restricted to those persons who played the game
of Saqifa, or who acquiesced in it, while the others who opposed the strategy behind Saqifa are seen
as being unreliable? And if that be so, then the hadith you have quoted should have been: "Verily, a few
of my companions are like stars, etc."

27

salam,

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 5, Number 251:
Narrated Abu Salama:

'Aisha's brother and I went to 'Aisha and he asked her about the bath of the Prophet. She brought a pot containing about a Sa' of water and took a bath and poured it over her head and at what time there was a screen between her and us.

This above hadith can be found at janubaba.com click on heaven and then click on sahih bukhari translations.
This is to prove to U the character of aisha(RA)
laterz

"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous

28

Dear Brothers Asalam alaikum,

          I have been reading these posts with great interest.

I am a sunni muslim, My first cousin is a Shia, and it has never made a difference to us. Maybe because we do not really have much knowledge about the history of our Ummah. This is the first time I have read allegations against the Sahaba for being immoral and disrespectful to our Prophet (PBUH). I would not like to make any comment as I am not learned enough to do this.
However what I can say is that I find very hard to believe, probably because I have always been taught that they were perfect and without fault and supported our Prophet (PBUH) throughout their hardship.
I have just bought the Bukhari hadiths in order to read up many things which I am confused about.
Apart from these are there any other books you know of from which I can get real details of Islamic history?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

It also says above that there was a SCREEN between them.
Wasalaam

[This message has been edited by designer (edited August 07, 2000).]

29

Designer,

it said that there was a screen between them, do U know what that means?! a screen, it’s still see through, U can see the silhouette. would U do that?! would U want URe sisters, daughters, mothers, to do such a thing infront of men?! I don’t understand Y people get their backs up as soon as they hear that the shia’s believe this, and all of a sudden, u hear a dozen excuses to protect Imam Umer(RA), Imam Abu Bakr(RA), and aysha(RA).
what I don’t get is Y our elders taught us that the shia believe that Imam ali(RA) was to be the prophet. That’s a lie. and this is Y today I am posting this, and want to get to the bottom of this. Wouldn’t U?! I mean the Prophet(pbuh) did say that only one of the 73 muslims sects will be the right one…soo I don’ understant Y there isn’t a sense of urgency to get to the bottom of this, if U look for it, U can find it, it’s all out there, it’s not X files

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

laterz

“There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true”
Anonymous

30

Ppl. i have never seen any shia talking on the logical grounds , there always ambiguity and fallacies in their arguments and this is the illogical text again with no logical support

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31

Still there is no reply to my QUESTION? Sir where is the reference which you all have read by yourselves? the page# the chapter#? haan?

32

bismihi Ta’ala
*assalam o alaikum … *

for the Tragedy of Thursday please consult this hadith from one of the trusted sources

Ibn Abbas said:

Reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of “Kitabul-Wasiyyah” in section “Babut-Tarkil-Wasiyyah”, 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3,
P1259, Tradition (#1637/21).

also

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 9.468 and 7.573

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The above tradition can also be found in

Sahih Muslim, Chapter of “Kitabul-
Wasiyyah” in section “Babut-Tarkil-Wasiyyah”, 1980 Edition, Arabic version
(Saudi Arabia), v3, p1259, Tradition (#1637/22).

also

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.716

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The above tradition is also in

Sahih Muslim, Chapter of “Kitabul-Wasiyyah” in section “Babut-Tarkil-Wasiyyah”, 1980 Edition, Arabic version,
(Saudi Arabia), v3, pp 1257-58, Tradition (#1637/20).

regards

Ali Abbas
www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited August 08, 2000).]

33

goood stuff ali abbas////

[This message has been edited by Pathan Bhai (edited August 08, 2000).]

34

Yup ali abbas, thanks a lot…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

zalim that is where U can find the proofs.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true”
Anonymous

35

I'm greatly troubles here......I always
had the notion that our Holy Prophet
couldn't write or read?....I have no hawala
can anyone help me out on this?

Hum ke tehray ajnabi.....

36

Ditto

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!

37

barish and shaheen, thats the point I am trying to highlight, but these guys, they are wandering offtrack, cant even prove what they are saying… anyways, I bring that up.

by the way Ali Abbas, PathanBahi and Ahl_e_Sunnah I have opened up another thread on this topic, read my reply over there… the references are wrong, no such Hadith exists in Sahih Bukhari.

** http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/001279.html **

38

a11shah
you are talking complete rubbish you are the one who knows nothing about islam.

read this

UNBRIDGEABLE DIVIDE

The protracted contrariety between Islam and Shi'ism is but a clear
reflection of fundamental differences between the two. The only common
denominator between Islam and Shi'ism is the Islamic Kalimah. The rest of
Shi'ism has very little in common with mainstream Islam. The unbridgeable
divide between the two is entrenched in some of the core fundamentals of
this sect, such as:

  • THE TWELVE IMAAMS

Imaamah is a divine station like Nubuwwat. This implies that Sunnis, who do
not believe in Imaamah, are unbelievers. According to their beliefs, Allah
had chosen twelve men to succees Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). The
twelfth Imaam however disappeared at the age of five. He is believed to be
the awaited Mahdi. (if this is true then you have alot in common with ahmadis whose mirza is the so called mahdi))

  • THE STATUS OF THE IMAAMS

The Imaams possess more knowledge than the Ambiyaa. They are superior to the
Ambiyaa and the entire creation. The Imaams can bring the dead back to life.
No knowledge of the heavens and the earth is hidden from them. (dont dare to curse them)

  • THE INTERPOLATION OF THE NOBLE QUR'AN

The Qur'an is incomplete and distorted in its present form. This tenet had
been explicity propounded by the classical scholars of Shi'ism, but frugally
denied by the contemporary scholars. (rubbish)

  • VILIFICATION AND APOSTASY OF THE SAHAABA

The Sahaaba were guilty of wilfully distorting and corrupting the Deen of
Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). They turned renegade after the
demise of Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) except the immediate household
of Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). (not true

  • THE PERMISSIBILITY OF MUT'A

(how can you lot believe this it is against the grain of islam, sexualratification!)

  • VIRTUES OF TAQIYYA

Islam and Shi'ism are two parallel streams of thought that can never
converge.(yes)they are as distinct from each other, as is Islam to the
Ahlul-Kitaab.To ignore these differences is to ignore the stark reality.

The often repeated hallowed call for "Muslim Unity" simply serves as a
smokescreen, behind which Shi'a missionaries penetrate Muslim societies. Any
attempt to resist this imposition is branded as "divisive". Would it be
divisive to protect Islam from a sect that inherently debases the Qur'an,
the Ambiyaa, and the Sahaaba? Unity can only be forged on the basis of
Aqeedah (belief). To label these differences as 'hair splitting issues' is
to undermine the sanctity of the Qur'an, the Ambiyaa and the Sahaaba unity
at the cost of the Qur'an is tantamount to blasphemy.

The constitution of our country guarantees religious freedom. The Shi'as
therefore have the right to propagate their beliefs. However, they need to
come out of the closet and do so under the banner of Shi'ism

you are a munafiq, kafir whatever else can i say, god is watching, your end will come who dares to defame our blessed sahabas, imams, hazrat aisha, in the name of shi'ism

let you know ...

If your mothers and fathers die, you would be weeping and wailing but not a tear do you shed for his holy prophet's family. But then again, what can be expected from you all who replicate those companions that had no love for the holy prophet and his family.(this is rubbish, as muslims we are not meant to shed a tear at the death of loved ones, let alone weep, 'pit' for hundreds of years, beat ourselves with knives, weapons, make our bodies bleed. it is similar to suicide, hurting ones body and inflicting pain on oneself. what are you trying to do, get rid of guilt??? you dont even cry for that long when family dies.
Where were these 3 so called companions when the holy prophet (pbuh) departed from this world to his heavenly abose. The holy apostle (pbuh) had not even been buried when these 3 stooges ran to a place called Saqifah and schemed over how to take control of the Caliphate.

if they had waited longer then islam would have been in danger from kafir and people like you(dont you dare call them cowards or stooges.

So I would like to ask the great Sunni community, who never fail to mention that they are the MAJORITY sect of Islam. By the way, the Quran explicitly states "And the believers are in the minority". Food for your thoughts my sunni brothers.(yes we are the majorty in islam, minority in the worldwide sense, got it!)

last but not least......
The Hadith is clear that from the 73 difference sects, only one will be successful and will go to Jannah. That is the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaa' (those that follow the laws of Allah according to the method shown by Rasulullah (SAW) and his illustrious Sahaaba). and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best - Mufti Ebrahim Desai FATWA DEPT.
(Hanafi - Ehle Sunnah)

The leader of the Ehle Sunnah Wal Jamaah` is actually Muhammad (SAW) himself and his illustrious Sahaaba (RA). Muhammad (SAW) said, 'My Ummah will split into 73 factions, all will enter the fire save one. The Sahaaba (companions) enquired, 'Which is that faction?' Nabi (SAW) replied, '(The one that follows) my way and the way of my companions. (umar usman abubakr ali)
And how can there be a reconciliation between the Ehle Sunnah and shia? The Ehle Sunnah are those who learnt and protected the Qur'aan al Kareem, who preserved and protected the Sunnah of Rasulullah ((Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)), those whom Allah Ta'ala has used to protect His Deen, and they made Jihaad in the way of Islam. And history bears ample testimony to this. The Raafidhah (shiahs) are those who curse the Sahaabah and attempt to destroy Islam. The Sahaabah adhiyallaahu Ánhum are those that transmitted the Deen to us. If we had to cast aspersions at the integrity of the Sahaabah, it will imply the destruction of the Deen. How can there be a reconciliation between the Ehle Sunnah and the Raafidhah (shias) while they swear and abuse the three Khulafaa ur Raashidah? If they had any intelligence then they would realise that their abuse is in fact an abuse of Rasululllah (SAW). Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar (RA) are the fathers-in-law of Rasulullah (SAW). They were his close confidants during his lifetime, and his close neighbours after his demise. Who can achieve this honour? Who can achieve this honour? They took part in Jihaad with Rasulullah (SAW) in all the Jihaad campaigns. These facts should be sufficient to dispel the false accusations of the shiahs.
Hazrat Uthmaan (RA)was husband to two of the daughters of Rasulullah (SAW). Allah Ta'ala will not choose for his beloved Rasool except the best of men, and the best of companions. This was the relationship between Rasulullah (SAW) and the three Khulafaa ur Raashideen. He never said that these three are the enemies of Islam, and never warned against these three, as the shiahs claim. If fact swearing at these three is an attack against Hadhrat Ali (RA). Hadhrat Ali (RA) gave Hadhrat Abu Bakr (RA)the Bay'át (oath of allegiance) in the Musjid (openly); and he (Hadhrat Ali (RA)) got his daughter Ummu Kulthoom married to Hadhrat Umar (RA); he took the Bay'át at the hands of Hadhrat Uthmaan (RA), was his minister, close friend and beloved one. Would Hadhrat Ali (RA) give his daughter to a kaafir, or would he give the bay'á to a kaafir? Subhaanallah, this is indeed a great slander. Their curse of Hadhrat Mu'aawiyah (RA) is in fact an attack against Hadhrat Hassan (RA), who accepted the khilaafat of Hadhrat Mu'aawiyah (RA), and whom many prominent Sahaabah accept the khilaafat of a kaafir? Subhaanallah, this is indeed a great slander. When they say that Hadhrat Ali and Hassan Radhiyallaahu Ánhuma were forced to do so, it displays their (shiahs') lack of intelligence. This is an insult to the two of them, a most vile insult. And how is it that they curse Ummul Mu'mineen Hadhrat 'Aaisha {Radhiyallahu anha}, whereas Allah Ta'ala declares in the Qur'aan that she is Ummul Mu'mineen (Mother of the Believers). Allah Ta'ala says: The Prophet has a greater right over the Mu'mineen than they have over themselves, and his Wives are their (the Mu'muneen's) Mothers. Therefore there is no doubt that those who curse her, she is not a mother unto them (they are not Mu'mineen). Would any person curse his own mother? Rather he would love her dearly. How can there ever be a reconciliation between the Ehle Sunnah and the Raafidhah (shiahs), when they believe Khomeini, the imaam of deviation, to be sinless. They assert that he is the deputy of their concocted Mahdi. Since they regard their imaams to be sinless, and since in the absence of the principle the deputy has the same status, they assert Khomeini to be sinless. And one form of Baatil only assists another. And one form of Baatil only assists another. And the Ahle Bayt are free and absolved from their (shiah's) beliefs. The proofs substantiating the falsehood of the beliefs of the shiahs are innumerable. As far as we, the Ehle Sunnah, are concerned, we will not draw closer to them a hair's breath, or even less. They are a greater harm to Islam than even the Yahood and Nasaarah. It is incumbent on all Muslims to be wary of them and be on guard against them. Allah Ta'ala says: They are your enemies, so beware of them. Allah Ta'ala declares war against them. Where will they find refuge? The shiahs are the followers of Ibn Saba, the yahoodi, and of Abu Lu'lu-ah, the majoosi (fire-worshiper). Thus, O Muslims, it is necessary for us to distinguish our Aqeedah, and to love those whom Allah Ta'ala loves, and hate that which Allah Ta'ala hates, to bring about unity amongst the Muslims, to be one strong united hand. The enemies of Islam have united in their false beliefs, to fight against Islam. This applies whether the enemies are of old or new. Doctrines The term Shi'a is Arabic for 'group' or 'faction'. It is applied to those who believe that, after the death of the Prophet, the Imamate (the political and religious leadership of the Muslim community) should have gone to 'Ali - the cousin and son-in-law of the prophet - and his descendants as a divine right. The three caliphs who preceded 'Ali - Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman - were not intended by Muhammad to be his immediate successors. The Imam is regarded by Shi'ites not merely as a political leader but as a metaphysical being, one who is without sin, whose doctrinal pronouncements are infallible and who bestows true knowledge on humanity. The Imams are referred to within the Shi'ite tradition as masum - free from error or sin - and are regarded by the majority of Shi'as as twelve in number. The last Imam, the Mahdi, is believed not to have died but to be in hiding and will appear at the end of time in order to bring about the victory of the Shi'a faith. Unlike the Sunnis, who perform prayers five times a day, the Shi'ites pray three times a day: in the morning, in the afternoon, and at night. Like other Muslims, they perform ritual ablutions before prayer. However, they customarily place a tiny tablet of clay brought from a holy place on the spot where their forehead will touch the ground. They also build very sumptuous monuments to their saints, organize pilgrimages to the tombs of the Imams and their descendants, and turn death and martyrdom into the focal point of their devotion. In the sphere of law the principal difference between Shi'a and Sunni is that Shi'a allows for temporary marriage, called mu'tah, which can legally be contracted for a fixed period of time on the provision of a fixed dower.

ponder over this!

39

WAY TO GO A11SHAH!!!HATS OFF TO YOU!!KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!

40

You know its so interesting, yesterday I was talking with sherrybaba.. and we were kinda talking about many of the misconceptions held between the sunnis and the shias.

Right now, I dont even know what to say, there is one hate filled post after another.. people (not even alims) are telling others who is right and who is wrong. And others are backing them up, "way to go" they say.. sad.. sad..

I think I'll just let Allah(SWT) be the judge.. but these actions can in no way benefit Islam.. never.. Hate in the name of islam.. bunch of jokers.