You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

[vroom]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@psyah

Peace brother vroom

Please try to understand me … because this is a serious matter …

We cannot say loosely:

a) Iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nast’een means = It is only You we worship and only You we ask for help

while at the same time say

b) We can ask help from others because it is in many places in the Qur’an …

Because by saying it that way we are saying that the Qur’an is not internally consistent … where in one place it says one thing and in another place the opposite.

I have given you the way out of this problem …

It is in translation where we find the problem … the help we ask from others is not the same help … and the proof of this is in the Qur’an …

Verb Form X (10) is not used for anyone other than for Allah (SWT) … help(1) = awn … but help(2) = isti’aana (form X) both of these are similar but not the same … which now means that we can only ask the type of help we ask from Allah (SWT) from Allah (SWT) … and to ask it from anyone else will throw us out of the fold.

If you were reading the Arabic you would see how my explanation does get out of the problem. It is the only way out of the problem. The Haqiqi and Majazi explanation does not do it … because that is saying while we may ask for help from someone the real help comes from Allah (SWT) … But the wording is specific in the Fatihah …

We only ask You for help … this means We ask help from Allah (SWT) and no one else … the only way around this is to separate the meanings by the forms they are used … and we see that whenever form 10 is used in the Qur’an it is only for Allah (SWT) … all other references of help are either using other words or other forms … I think in the case of Dhul Qarnain - it was form iv (4).

Your position can be summed as follows:

*Peer Sahib has it wrong. Since we recite the verse, we can not loosely say we can also ask for help from others. Saying such a thing would entail the Quran losing its internal consistency
However you can ask for help from others providing it is a help in little things (subject dependent)
*We can only ask the type of help we ask from Allah (SWT) from Allah (SWT)

The above is my understanding of your position. I will think over it, but at this stage I must admit I have it down as stated before - Its a contradiction
Obviously the methods you have used to arrive at your conclusion are specific to yourself, Mash Allah, but do not concern me at this stage whilst i am concentrating on the positions.

I’ll get back to you In Sha Allah

[Monk]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@vroom

The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is the Best of Men (khairul Bashar) and a Noor (A Light)

You know if prophet(pbuh) was just a man your pir would be out of business ? You understand that?
Try talking to other people who tend to make men in to gods(light and so on)
Talk to Christians, or to shias(about ahl y bait being noors)
You get a picture what you are doing.

I had a friend for whom its was not enough that prophet(pbuh) was *noor, *he said “some say.. it was God him self came behind the perdal”
Its not unusual for people to make creation into God.

[psyah]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@Monk

You know if prophet(pbuh) was just a man your pir would be out of business ? You understand that?
Try talking to other people who tend to make men in to gods(light and so on)
Talk to Christians, or to shias(about ahl y bait being noors)
You get a picture what you are doing.

I had a friend for whom its was not enough that prophet(pbuh) was *noor, *he said “some say.. it was God him self came behind the perdal”
Its not unusual for people to make creation into God.

Peace Monk

This post is inaccurate to the extreme … No one has deified RasoolAllah (SAW) … It is important to keep things real … Yes people do commit shirk … I don’t believe there is any of it done with RasoolAllah (SAW) … Any ta’reef that we do for him (SAW) is lower than what he deserves … He (SAW) is the one who will be given the Maqam al Mahmud on the yawn of Akhira …

[Mughal1]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@Monk

You know if prophet(pbuh) was just a man your pir would be out of business ? You understand that?
Try talking to other people who tend to make men in to gods(light and so on)
Talk to Christians, or to shias(about ahl y bait being noors)
You get a picture what you are doing.

I had a friend for whom its was not enough that prophet(pbuh) was *noor, *he said “some say.. it was God him self came behind the perdal”
Its not unusual for people to make creation into God.

[Mughal1]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

[vroom]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@Monk

You know if prophet(pbuh) was just a man your pir would be out of business ?

No, My Pir is fully equipped to chase the dunya rather then spending time teaching people Traditional Islam.
When there is no-one left to take Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam as Best of Creation, it means all the believers have died and Islam has disappeared from the world

and if you want to say Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is ‘‘just a man’’ then that could be kufr in some cases. In cases that we can rule on in the Shariah

I’ll tell you what you hold onto that thought and go meet your Lord*. ok?

**by lord i mean Allah The Just and not Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam because we also call Him Sayyid meaning Lord *

You understand that?

you have no idea what you are talking about.

Try talking to other people who tend to make men in to gods(light and so on)

Gods according to you and your religion!
You take gods besides Allah Ta’ala very easily

I talk to people like you every other day, I know how someone could even become your god. they have to show some connection to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala. ie a Wali (friend of Allah) (shirk isnt it? friend OF Allah)

Talk to Christians, or to shias(about ahl y bait being noors)
You get a picture what you are doing.

Ahle Bayt were Noors and are part of the mercy sent to the world, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala will love whoever loves them

Isa Alaihis Salam is so virtuous that as shy Muslims we have to put words ‘‘created’’ by in of ourselves next to His virtues, when Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala did not do it!

I had a friend for whom its was not enough that prophet(pbuh) was *noor, *he said “some say.. it was God him self came behind the perdal”

That’s not us and you are liar. Erm i remember you as someone who used to Mock Islam, and now seeing you with an islamic signature. Nothings changed but now you have a religious reason to feel better then others (by claiming they are looking for other gods by following genuine Islam, which has given us Helpers(Prophets, angels, Awliya, general Believers, plants, Prayers and Patience etc etc))

Its not unusual for people to make creation into God.

A god for you is easily made, However anyone can claim to be a monotheist by rejecting the virtues Of Prophets and Saliheen, but that’s not Islam, that’s somewhere between atheism and theist

Don’t dump on this thread yet. start your own thread or wait for this to lose its topic and or become redundant. Running from topic to calling Nabi Pak SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam as just a man has been noted.

[Monk]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

[RIGHT]
[/RIGHT]

[RIGHT]

http://quran.com/images/ayat_retina/41_6.png

[/RIGHT]

Sahih International
Say, O [Muhammad], “I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness.” And woe to those who associate others with Allah -

[Monk]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@psyah

Peace Monk

This post is inaccurate to the extreme … No one has deified RasoolAllah (SAW) … It is important to keep things real … Yes people do commit shirk … I don’t believe there is any of it done with RasoolAllah (SAW) … Any ta’reef that we do for him (SAW) is lower than what he deserves … He (SAW) is the one who will be given the Maqam al Mahmud on the yawn of Akhira …

psyah
I am not making this up, guy was my very good friend, he loved pirs kramat etc
he told me this to my face, “that some people even think they it was God him self came behind hijab.”

psyeh
I have 3 books about prophet(pbuh) sitting on my table 1 1/2 read. There is no one who leaves me speechless then reading about his life- every example.

[psyah]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@Monk

psyah
I am not making this up, guy was my very good friend, he loved pirs kramat etc
he told me this to my face, “that some people even think they it was God him self came behind hijab.”

psyeh
I have 3 books about prophet(pbuh) sitting on my table 1 1/2 read. There is no one who leaves me speechless then reading about his life- every example.

Peace brother Monk

I cannot believe that anyone has ever done shirk with RasoolAllah (SAW) … The reason why I believe this is because RasoolAllah (SAW) did a du’a that he (SAW) does not get turned in to an idol as other prophets and holy men had been turned to idols before him (SAW) …

The biggest proof of this is there is a sect that has deified Sayyiduna Ali (RA) … But not a single one deifying RasoolAllah (SAW) … It is my belief that all du’a made by RasoolAllah (SAW) were accepted …

so I think if you clarified with your friend you would have surely seen he had meant something else …

[Monk]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

I agree, he probably said that to praise, in his silliness . He did not do shirk though, that i know.

[vroom]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@Monk

[RIGHT]
[/RIGHT]

[RIGHT]

http://quran.com/images/ayat_retina/41_6.png

[/RIGHT]

Sahih International
Say, O [Muhammad], “I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness.” And woe to those who associate others with Allah -

The word translated as man here is Bashr, it means have skin and is visible
It should be added that RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam has The Best Skin and His visibility (view of Him) created Sahaba when they saw Him or when He saw them

You will be making a huge mistake to take RASOOLALLAH SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam as just a man

When it is said RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam Is Best of Creation it is actually meant

I’ll leave you with a Sunni opinion:
*
The Soil that is touching directly the Blessed Body of Sayyidina Rasool Allah Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Alihi Wassalam is better then the Arsh (extented heaven) of Allah Ta’Ala Because the Arsh Azeem is not an attribute of Allah Almighty but it is a creation of Allah and Sayyidina Rasool Allah Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Alihi Wassalam IS THE BEST OF CREATION so is better then the Arsh of Allah Almighty !!! Mustafa Jaan E Rehmat Pe Lakon Salaam !!! Jummah Mubarak to all Ahle Sunnah Wal Jam’ah*

[psyah]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

^ Although I am glad Allah (SWT) has made me human and from the Ummah of RasoolAllah (SAW) … how amazing would it have been to be part of that soil that touches the blessed body of RasoolAllah (SAW) … SubhanAllah …

[teggy]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

@vroom

The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is the Best of Men (khairul Bashar) and a Noor (A Light)

I have already made a thread on it:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-philosophy/638720-is-rasoolallah-sallallahu-alaihi-wa-alehi-wa-sallam-a-man-like-us.html

Yes, you have some common questions regarding Mazars, and Graves. This is something that i have myself been upon. I’ll start a thread about These issues Soon In Sha Allah, no promises however. The comment you were replying to was meant to convey the message of who Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are, ie in our lineage, our traits and hallmarks. The building of Mazars itself is not a solitary position, there is other positions however the permissibility of building Mazars is what has prevailed

The first thing to mention is that visiting Awliya is done out of Love for the Sake of Allah. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala loves these people, that’s why they are called Awliya (friends of Allah). So can you imagine visiting someones grave out of Love? let me answer this for you No, because I have been in the same boat

Also the second thing to mention is because our current most active groups are not ‘into’ these ideas and beliefs. Much of the Hadiths, and reports regarding the conduct of Companions RadiAllahu Anh at Graves is not mentioned. However from what I have come across, it is visible where our practices (practices of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah) have come from! That is from The Companions RadiAllahu Anh

So when Aluu Tawheed get principled (a little bit principled) you will see them attack Imams of Ahlus Sunnah
Wrong concepts of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal - YouTube
Among the accusations here is ‘making a procedure for the visitation of Imam Hussain’s Blessed Grave’ (however their fustration on Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal is misplaced as these visitation were taking place much much before Imam Ahmad!)Among the accusations here is making the aqeedah which facilitates visitation of Awliya, this is incorrect as the aqeedah is present in our Scriptures and that’s why Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal also re-iterated it. These fools are trying to take on Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal with their translations but Imam Ahmad like the rest of Imams of Ahlus Sunnah knew the Quran and Sunnah intimately.

So from this it is clear the first three things I would like to say is:

1. It is a Practice of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah to build Mazars, and it is us who have formed the lineage of Islam to present
2. It is out of Love that visitation of Awliya occurs
   2a) There is an emotional difference between Us and those who do not visit
3. It is inbuilt into our Aqeedah that we visit Graves, Give them Salam and be well mannered in their presence (in the Graveyard)

Salam

Walaikum salaam wa rehmatullah brother,

I will ponder over what you have mentioned coupled with the link Brother Psyah provided because that would be doing justice to the topic and discussion at-hand. Insha Allah will revisit if something else springs to mind.

I appreciate the fact that you realize I said all that I said because you yourself have pondered over the same things, and asked the same questions. May Allah join our hearts, and bring about good for this ummah through mutual dialogue to clear misunderstandings.

[vroom]

Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Salam Alaikum

Maulana sahib has stated that the reason why we split up “help” is because the Qur’an has many accounts of help being undertaken other than by Allah (SWT). Yet, this does not occur with “worship” … So, he says, for that reason - help has to be split up in to two types. Haqiqi and Majazi …

Contention - This is problematic because then Maulana Sahib is saying that there is a contradiction in the clear Arabic grammar - “It is ONLY You …”** Iyyaka has made it specific yet if we are to accept that help appears in other places in the Qur’an from other than Allah (SWT), **then we have admitted a contradiction.

What Moulana Sahib has said is that it is The Help of Allah, so there is no possibility of contradiction. Haqiqi help is brought out through Majaz. There is not two helps, it is one help. So when someone has sought the help of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam they received the help of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala.

If you can not appreciate the words Haqiqi and Majazi, then since you too believe it is permissible to ask through ghairullah for help, choose an example of it (what fits your own criteria). In seeking help you asked X person, x person did as requested. Do you attribute the help received to x person or to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala?
I am pretty sure you will say x person helped (majazi) but Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala was the Original Source of Help. This is Haqiqi

We cannot say loosely:

a) Iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nast’een means = It is only You we worship and only You we ask for help

…However, … I am saying we can ask from others

That’s a contradiction, even if you are carefully selecting what you ask from others. Its saying we carefully break the pledge!

Also you no longer have the cover of Haqiqi and Majaz to protect you, meaning if you go Creation for Little things you will ultimately attribute it to creation.

the help we ask from others is not the same help

This is semi agreeable since others are not Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, but help is help (help is from Allah Ta’ala). The help gained through Prayer and Patience for example is From Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala (Haqiqi source)

But i guess this part of your view is really regarding limits. Well the limits of Creation is that it is not independent, Creation depends upon Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala to help (to help themselves and help others). This means they are our partners in being dependents