You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

when you are moving furniture can you ask allah to give you a hand ?
so you ask your brother or friend for that.

When same issue is mentioned in quran, i did quick search, its mostly says(in my words) “when you call upon some one instead of allah”

So what kind of help we ask allah for now ???
if its clear, then it should be also clear that kind of help we can not ask from creation.

I pray allah guide us all, that dude too in the video.

This is not the first time i saw some one putting his own meaning in scriptures.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

‘‘ask allah to give you a hand’’ ???

From the permissible point of view we can Ask help from Allah Most Merciful, or from Allah through a means, or through a means with the belief that our help will come through the permission of Allah

Collect your thoughts and bring your argument

We can ask from Creation, some of them will not be able to provide what we want. That does not mean it was Shirk to ask them

When you pray for guidance make sure you pray without telling Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala what your beliefs are. Allow Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala to guide to the Truth

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Peace brother vroom

Welcome back … :slight_smile:

Can you define shirk as per your understanding - describing in no uncertain ways how it differs from “not-shirk”.
Can you also give us a detailed understanding of how you take “iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nasta’een” and how it fits if at all with the concept of shirk and how it fits within the “Rights of Allah (SWT)”

Please point to elements of the 'Aqeedah of Ahl-us-Sunnah in your justification - providing the reference and book/authority it is from.

Clearly you have a good mind … you can do this …

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Salam

I was hoping you would watch the videos and gain this information from there. It is there. Its is directly on the correct and incorrect interpretation of “iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nasta’een”. That is what the lectures are about

You even mentioned Fatiha in another thread, This is now your chance to have say on that. What the Imam has said is my view

Otherwise you do have a broad range of my views already expressed on the Subject, these are fair to be used against me. Non were written in haste.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

^Wa’alaikumuSalam brother

Yes, I watched the full video intently and on the whole no big issue except some points that need clarification. And they need clarification and that is why I asked those questions. Notice how my questions are phrased … Let’s put it another way …

Knowledge of ghaib in the blessed person of the holy prophet (SAW).

Let’s assume for arguments sake that RasoolAllah (SAW) has full knowledge of the ghaib … ($)

  1. Is ($) this shirk?
    Answer) No … because the knowledge of RasoolAllah (SAW) is given by The One who Knows (Inherently). It is acquired knowledge.

  2. Is it ($) accurate?
    Answer) … I don’t think so …

What am I looking for? … I am looking for consistency in belief … if we believe that nothing is like Allah (SWT), then anything that Allah (SWT) has nothing can have it. There may be a semblance that is linguistic but not in actual fact. It is important that we not only define terms but define them in accordance with certain understandings and established beliefs that can be pointed to in works of scholars who were authorities of aqeedah.

I have been unable to find a site that shows the lineage of the belief system and the authorities you have … all I know is that you follow Maturidi aqeedah which is a good start - because I follow that too … but how it converges on to the video you have posted - I need more information for that please.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Well I will encourage you to speak up regarding incorrect beliefs, so if you have no such issue, which needs speaking against, then no further action required. If you do have issue then you must raise your concerns. The subject here is “iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nasta’een” its correct interpretation, and refutation the incorrect interpretation coming from some of your friends. It is important for me that the subject is realized

Obviously I do not know the details of the clarification you are looking for. However I have spoken on shirk and what is not shirk, so if you have anything to say on the matter I will stick to my beliefs, so you are free to make your point.

Well that is inaccurate according to you, However there are scholars who have believe RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam has full knowledge of the Ghaib. It is a different ‘everything’ (a drop in the Ocean) as to the ‘‘everything’’ as in the absolute knowledge of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala

There is no ijma on the subject on full knowledge of the Unseen but if anyone denies The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam knew at least some of the 5 things they may find a nice big fatwa on their heads! These are the parameters i know about

Well if you have knowledge on Aqeedah books then you share that, or accept that perhaps your concerns are unfounded. We are the people who built Mazars from the east to the west, from the north to the south, for the purpose of visiting and spending time with Awliya and gaining any tabarruk we could from that. That was Us - Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah. That is still Us.

I can tell you I do not know what aqeedah I am from Ashari or muturidi, and Moulana Asrar Rashid is Ashari. So your information is perhaps wrong, i dont know
From the questions you are posing it seems that you are think we are something new, however that can be quickly dispelled by the fact we the ones of India who did not change post the arrival of Riyadhi influence. So we are those Indians who were Sunnis before and are still Sunni

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Peace brother vroom

We - i.e. you and me are from the same or at least a very similar tradition … My concerns are for many people like us … who choose to learn about matters of the spirit without learning about matters of the belief system. It is essential to learn those in order to put the whole sayings in to context that way we are better equipped to answer some of the concerns here on this forum too.

For example no where in our aqeedah - neither 'Ashari nor Maturidi are we to hold on to the idea that RasoolAllah (SAW) knew all the ghaib. However, there are many interpretive texts that show there are levels of ghaib … many of which are closed to the average person, but open for the awliya and many levels that they cannot see and many levels that even the angels do not have permission to see beyond.

I do believe that it is right to say that RasoolAllah (SAW) has access to all knowledge of this world - but is that equal to knowledge of ghaib as in as a similitude with Allah (SWT) - no … so that needs to be made clear to the people who are suggesting kufr or shirk - because to them it is not obvious like it is to you … you need to explain why it is not shirk … like I have just done. We need to separate the Characteristics of The Divine (SWT) from the characteristics of Messenger. (SAW).

By the way I do not know which aqeedah your maulana follows, but Sh. Ahmed Raza Khan (RA) followed Maturidi … and my Shaykh is also Ash’ari … yet I am like most Hanafis Maturidi. So once we know what we are … in aqeedah it is necessary to seek out what the fundamental elements are of the books of Imam Maturidi. For me I have 'Aqeedah At-Tahawiya it is very similar to Maturidi text but also simpler … I do have Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar which is an aqeedah book by Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) … here read this - it is a precursor to our more developed aqeedah …

http://www.central-mosque.com/aqeedah/fiqakbar.pdf

We are on the same side by the way …

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

vroom was prophet(pbuh) a man?

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

AsSalaamo Alaikum,

If the same amount of time, effort, fervor, money, and energy was spent in doing Dawah or building masjids, feeding the poor and supporting the orphans, wouldn’t that be a more proud achievement? That was, and still is the Prophet (s.a.w.)'s way. Sahaba (r.a.) didn’t go around building mazars over the sahabas (r.a.) who were martyred. Not even for Rasool Allah (s.a.w) when he passed away and returned to Allah Almighty, as we all will sooner or later. Who could be bigger awliyah Allah than those blessed souls? Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) told us explicitly without a doubt that the first three generations should serve as an example for us. Whom from among them built a mazaar for Yasir (r.a.) or Summaiyyah (r.a.) who were the first martyrs for Islam? If such a thing was of benefit, wouldn’t Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) have recommended, or approved of it? Unless we are to contemplate that (astagfirullah) the much later generations have discovered a way of blessings that Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) forgot to convey, but as most muslims remember the religion was complete during the last sermon at completion of Hajj.

How do you get tabarrukaat by spending time with the dead? Do they benefit you, or pass their blessings up to you from grave when each soul is in need for all the hasanat in the hereafter?

More importantly, can you confidently say that by building mazaars with the best of intentions, and I do believe you have the best of intentions, you wouldn’t be held to account if people use those mazars for malice purposes and indulge in anything other than Islam? When one of us does something good, the Ajr for it carries on even after we die. When one of us does something that is not good and people keep repeating it, or utilizing it, a portion of what they do also carries on for us after we die.

What boggles my mind is that some of us do things which did not exist during the early generations, and are unfounded in the Sunnah of Rasool Allah and call ourselves from followers of the Sunnah of Rasool Allah. How is that possible?

But, of course, I’m limited in my knowledge of these things. And my reason for raising these questions was out of sincerity, and nothing else. May Allah bless you for all the good you do, and forgive for the bad that happens unintentionally, and give us all the hidayah to be on seerat-e-mustaqeem all the way till the end.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Peace brother Teggy

Perhaps this is important to read … It is unfair to judge brother vroom upon your criteria. Unless you already agree on certain points … for example bid’a definition and limitations to first three generations, etc … however, I think this article portrays his position better …

http://www.nooremadinah.net/Documents/Ahle-SunnahWalJamaat/43)ErectingAMausoleum/ErectingAMausoleum.pdf

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

I shall assume no-one has anything to say regarding the subject : “iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nasta’een”

and The Imam has sufficiently exposed the wrong (Mubtadi) interpretation of the verse

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

AsSalaamo Alaikum brother Psyah,

JazakAllah for the link. I will be sure to read it later today. I have nothing but respect for brother vroom or anyone else who seeks to share sacred knowledge with others in hopes they would benefit, because that is what Rasool Allah (s.a.w) counseled us to do.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is the Best of Men (khairul Bashar) and a Noor (A Light)

I have already made a thread on it:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-philosophy/638720-is-rasoolallah-sallallahu-alaihi-wa-alehi-wa-sallam-a-man-like-us.html

Yes, you have some common questions regarding Mazars, and Graves. This is something that i have myself been upon. I’ll start a thread about These issues Soon In Sha Allah, no promises however. The comment you were replying to was meant to convey the message of who Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are, ie in our lineage, our traits and hallmarks. The building of Mazars itself is not a solitary position, there is other positions however the permissibility of building Mazars is what has prevailed

The first thing to mention is that visiting Awliya is done out of Love for the Sake of Allah. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala loves these people, that’s why they are called Awliya (friends of Allah). So can you imagine visiting someones grave out of Love? let me answer this for you No, because I have been in the same boat

Also the second thing to mention is because our current most active groups are not ‘into’ these ideas and beliefs. Much of the Hadiths, and reports regarding the conduct of Companions RadiAllahu Anh at Graves is not mentioned. However from what I have come across, it is visible where our practices (practices of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah) have come from! That is from The Companions RadiAllahu Anh

So when Aluu Tawheed get principled (a little bit principled) you will see them attack Imams of Ahlus Sunnah
Wrong concepts of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal - YouTube
Among the accusations here is ‘making a procedure for the visitation of Imam Hussain’s Blessed Grave’ (however their fustration on Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal is misplaced as these visitation were taking place much much before Imam Ahmad!)Among the accusations here is making the aqeedah which facilitates visitation of Awliya, this is incorrect as the aqeedah is present in our Scriptures and that’s why Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal also re-iterated it. These fools are trying to take on Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal with their translations but Imam Ahmad like the rest of Imams of Ahlus Sunnah knew the Quran and Sunnah intimately.

So from this it is clear the first three things I would like to say is:

  1. It is a Practice of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah to build Mazars, and it is us who have formed the lineage of Islam to present
  2. It is out of Love that visitation of Awliya occurs
    2a) There is an emotional difference between Us and those who do not visit
  3. It is inbuilt into our Aqeedah that we visit Graves, Give them Salam and be well mannered in their presence (in the Graveyard)

Salam

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Salams brother vroom

Here are some things to look into … regarding the talk by respected Peer Saqib … I have done some looking up and found a few interesting things.

Here are my references:

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_vforms.html
Quranic Grammar - Verb Forms

Maulana sahib has stated that the reason why we split up “help” is because the Qur’an has many accounts of help being undertaken other than by Allah (SWT). Yet, this does not occur with “worship” … So, he says, for that reason - help has to be split up in to two types. Haqiqi and Majazi …

Contention - This is problematic because then Maulana Sahib is saying that there is a contradiction in the clear Arabic grammar - “It is ONLY You …” Iyyaka has made it specific yet if we are to accept that help appears in other places in the Qur’an from other than Allah (SWT), then we have admitted a contradiction.

Rather if we study the Arabic further we will see how there is no contradiction at all …

There are indeed two types of help …

Help type 1: - Serving as a servant - to make light of the work
Help type 2: - Enabling - To make possible

Type 1 is the type of help that the one who is being helped can do himself in what he is being helped with - for example Dhul-Qarnain sought help in a matter that he himself could do if he had the time to do it. Type 2 is not the sort of help that slaves provide to their masters, but the type of help that The Master provides His slaves … It is the facilitation of destiny and Intervention of Divine. It is to make something possible to be done.

In Arabic of the Qur’an I have seen a pattern that “nas-taa’een” is written in Form X (10) - All other form 10s in the Qur’an are asking Allah (SWT) directly and any other places do not use that form … see the links I have provided. So the places that Maulana Sahib has given to justify asking for help from others - all of them either use a different word or use a different form of the verb … Now we are clear of the contradiction.

Yes, we can ask others for help - but it is the type of help that we ask from Allah (SWT) that only belongs to Him …

The next thing i.e. by using the Aqeedah we can understand what it is that qualifies as the type of help we are allowed to ONLY ask from Him …

Note: Form 10 has the extra letters Hamza, Seen, Ta at the beginning before the root … Ain, Waw, Noon … Waw is a weak letter and will sometimes be swapped with a Ya … I hope that Form X cannot be used for anything other than Allah (SWT) … otherwise we will need to find another reason why it says “Iyyaka” …

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

In fact type 1 help should be subdivided in to two categories too:

The type of help a slave give his king = type 1a)
The type of help a king gives his slave = type 1b)

The type of help The Divine gives = type 2)

This is where other forms such as gawth, and khaadim, can be understood. Madad, Khidmah, Istigaatha can be understood with their various subtleties …

I reject the claim that Asking from RasoolAllah (SAW) is shirk … It would be shirk to ask of anyone to forgive our sins other than Allah (SWT) for example … but not all requests are like that … The claim that asking from a person who is alive from a person who is dead makes a difference - I reject that distinction too … It is spurious and based on the assumption that those who ask from someone who has died are “rejecting the death” … they are not rejecting the death, but they are not accepting the “ongoing state of their death and helplessness” - The place I would argue however is:

“What are we asking from RasoolAllah (SAW) or from the Awliya”?

The subject matter is important and that determines whether something is shirk or not …

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Wow psyah this is funny from i am sitting. Can I congratulate you on your quick turnaround

Firstly, Moulana Sahib has not bowled over the Power of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala Naudhubillah
As you can see in my title the words are “from You alone we seek help”

The word Haqiqi represents the ‘overall’ help

Where this leaves the differing avenues to help open (majazi)

Moulana Sahib has reduced the help of Creation to a metaphor!

Keep studying!

So you have removed the terms haqiqi and majazi and brought in serving as a servant and enabling!

Moulana Sahbib has covered this, perhaps you were listening with imbalanced hearing

All help belongs to Allah Subahanhu wa Ta’ala, although it is permissible to ask from Others

Wow , you are trying to teach the teacher on Aqeedah. Psyah i am not impressed

and This is something which you touched on before, in a thread which you followed whatever wind was prevailing (said just to you put on the ground, ie reality)
What is exclusively for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala is Worship and His Attributes
RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam has offered and then given Paradise to His Companion, and Asked if there ANYTHING else He wants

This means the whole spectrum of possible goodies and wants are open (not shirk) to be requested from Muslims

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Peace brother vroom

As I said … this interpretation does not save us … the issue is not where the “help” is coming from … the issue is “where we should ASK from” … If after declaring that we ONLY ask from Allah (SWT) and then turn around and ask from others and using that to justify certain things then we are drawing to a contradiction and accepting it.

However, I am not saying that … I am saying we can ask from others … but at the same time exonerating us from the contradiction by saying that what we ask for must be subject dependent. As proven by the Qur’an … which means we do not have carte blanche permission to ask from the awliya or anbiya - it means we have to make sure what we are asking is allowed for us to ask … and not something that is requesting a Divine response from them.

I hope you understand that to believe a servant of Allah (SWT) should be requested by us to provide what is from the Sifat of Allah (SWT) then that is Shirk. If however, Allah (SWT) chooses one of His servants to deliver from His sifaat after we ASKED Allah (SWT) directly then that is possible and is the mechanism we should adopt for our understanding.

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

This is the backbone of your contention

You have said Peer Sahib by dividing help into two types - Haqiqi and Majazi senses, has contradicted the the first part of verse and the word “Iyyaka” specifically

Well going by your own reasoning and logic, you have contradicted both parts of Verse. Since you can not split ‘‘Worship’’ and you have split help into 2 (two). Your example of servant and enabler does not actually get away from the contradiction you saw in Peer Sahib.

You are in a bit of a muddle!

the Verse:

  • You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)
  • You alone we seek help

The Haqiqi and Majazi explanation is an excellent explanation that covers all angles of seeking help

Asking by itself is not all angles!

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

Peace brother vroom

Please try to understand me … because this is a serious matter …

We cannot say loosely:

a) Iyyaka na’budu wa iyyaka nast’een means = It is only You we worship and only You we ask for help

while at the same time say

b) We can ask help from others because it is in many places in the Qur’an …

Because by saying it that way we are saying that the Qur’an is not internally consistent … where in one place it says one thing and in another place the opposite.

I have given you the way out of this problem …

It is in translation where we find the problem … the help we ask from others is not the same help … and the proof of this is in the Qur’an …

Verb Form X (10) is not used for anyone other than for Allah (SWT) … help(1) = awn … but help(2) = isti’aana (form X) both of these are similar but not the same … which now means that we can only ask the type of help we ask from Allah (SWT) from Allah (SWT) … and to ask it from anyone else will throw us out of the fold.

If you were reading the Arabic you would see how my explanation does get out of the problem. It is the only way out of the problem. The Haqiqi and Majazi explanation does not do it … because that is saying while we may ask for help from someone the real help comes from Allah (SWT) … But the wording is specific in the Fatihah …

We only ask You for help … this means We ask help from Allah (SWT) and no one else … the only way around this is to separate the meanings by the forms they are used … and we see that whenever form 10 is used in the Qur’an it is only for Allah (SWT) … all other references of help are either using other words or other forms … I think in the case of Dhul Qarnain - it was form iv (4).

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Re: You alone we worship and from You alone we seek help (and may we always)

The quran is a book of deen and deen is all about goals and guidelines.

Deen is a way of life and way of life means the way people think and act to fulfil all their needs.

Islam is a way of life advised by Allah therefore if people want to live by way of life advised by Allah then they need to find out what that means. It means Allah has created this world for his purpose and therefore he has set up all this world so that it fulfils his set out purpose. This is why Allah has set out goals for mankind to accomplish and he has provided mankind with guidelines to follow for house rules to achieve the set out goals.

Any other way of life people adopt to live by is therefore shirk because one is setting up a parallel or rival way of life to that which is appointed by Allah. That is like creating a state within a state. By inventing or even accepting any other house rules than the ones given by Allah one is effectively rebelling against rule of Allah. Since Allah is king of this universe therefore none has the right to rule in this kingdom of the universe other than Allah. This is why no man has the right to rule any other man, instead all must live by the book of the Master of this universe. All people are subjects of Allah equally because they are all his creatures. So this universe has only and only one master ie Allah.

The quran is not a book of mazhab therefore not a book of make beliefs and useless rituals. Religions are man made and quran condemns them all. Islam is deen not religion.

The quran was revealed in arabic but arabic language was at a very different stage of development before the revelation of the quran and it developed to a very different stage since after the revelation of the quran. This difference is not paid sufficient attention by scholars of the quran and particularly mullahs of madrassas.

Just look at development of a human baby after birth as to how he learn a language. At the start he is very simple ie uses one word to say everything he wants to say but as he develops he uses more and more words for saying different things he wants to say. This is the key to understanding the quranic arabic.

The quran was revealed when arabic language used less number of words for expressing more ideas. This means the very same sentence used in the quran could mean many different things and one has to have reason to choose the meanings that are complementary but have context and that context is deen. Any meanings that turn quran into a senseless jumble of words is wrong way to look at the quranic text.

The grammatical rules are not the way to look at the quran because they have been invented on the basis of understanding of the quranic text by mullahs later on when deen was changed with mazhab by rulers. If their understanding of the quranic text is wrong then grammatical rules drawn from that are also wrong. So before anyone could apply grammatical rules to make sense of the quranic text one has to know how language was used at the time of the revelation of the quran.

If hadith books were written down a bit later than the quran then the grammar books were written even later and dictionaries yet later so they should not be taken as basis for understanding of the quranic text. The basis has to be the quran because the quran is the only written text we have from its time. This does not mean we discard or completely disregard other sources but that we must remain alert that we do not cause problems within the quranic text by trying to justify other sources of information when we know they are not as strong and reliable as the quran and that they are not necessarily from the time of the quran. So just as any hadith is fine that is consistent with the quran so any grammar rule is fine that is consistent with the quranic text.

This raises a question, why Allah did not wait and reveal the quran when arabic language had fully developed and grammar had been fully worked out? It is because if a language is not developed enough then it fails to convey the complex and sophisticated message and if it is fully developed then it becomes a precision language which needs more text to convey little information and that means if the quran had it been revealed later it will have become a book of many volumes therefore useless.

For example, look at books of science how they have developed as knowledge in field of science has increased just within last 60 years. How many people read encyclopaedias from cover to cover? How many people have read hundred volume quranic tafseer? Even if they did read hundred volumes, how many had ability to retain that much information and make sense of it and make use of it?

Allah chose a certain language at a certain time and a certain people and place because that suited his purpose the best. So the quran was revealed when it ought to be revealed because that was the best thing for Allah to do to fulfil his purpose.

There are a lot of things people do not pay attention to that need proper understanding before getting into nitty gritty of things. So people will be better off putting their effort into learning worth while things rather than wasting time in arguing over make beliefs and useless rituals. Religion based debates and discussion never produce results and meanwhile humanity is in terrible state of existence. Mazhab can only lead humanity into this sort of existence and only deen of Allah can lead people to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world as well as in hereafter.