yesterday's friday prayers sermon

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I was listening to the sermon that was being delivered in teh local mosque yesterday. the guy was making a point that a madrassah for women was permissible under islam since Hazrat Zakarriyah had made a room for Hazrat Maryam so that she could pray there. that made me think.
see, I Am not against educating women or anything. that is not the point here. I would have wanted the women to be educated regardless of what the maulvi said. but i wanted to point this thing out because of another thing.
see, what happens is that we want to argue something in our favor, or in the favor of what we believe in, we always pick up examples from the lives of the earlier prophets. that is what has happened in the case that i just cited.
yet when we want to argue something we would reject the examples from the lives of prophets simply by saying " well the shariat for this ummat has changed". when people say that a certain prophet did not mind having a flute, our maulvis reject that by saying that that was some other shariat. but now we are not allowed music.
what hypocrisy is that? why cant we have the same standard to check everything?

I hope i you understand what i am trying to say.

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

Unless clearly annulled by the Quran, any tradition of a previous Prophet is OK.

But this can get murky. So Jesus drank alcohol, and turned water into wine as a miracle. Clearly, alcohol in and of itself is not a bad thing. But when people abuse it, like anything else, it can become bad. So, muslims believe that God asked his Believers to give up alcohol. Does it mean Jesus was doing wrong? No, because the ruling to stop drinking wasn't delivered until after his time.

That's a clear cut example of "shariat" being changed through divine intervention.

But it can get VERY murky:
Solomon was a "king". Does this mean that monarchies are permissable in an Islamic state? The Saudi Kingdom would argue it would be.

But did the Prophet ask his Ummah to create a monarchy?

Shias might argue yes, Sunnis might argue no. Saudi kingdom isn't even of Shia faith, and they still have a monarchy. The Prophet didn't make monumental decisions just from his family alone; but included representatives of the various communities he worked with. So what does that mean about the particular government structures allowed in an Islamic state?

Queen Sheba was the wife of Prophet Sulaiman, and he continued to let her have reign of her lands after he married her and she became a "believer". Yet we have a hadith telling us that the Prophet has predicted female leaders would lead their communities to ruin.

These are just some examples. The problem becomes what you accept as true beyond doubt, and what you accept doubt-worthy as far as information goes. There's only one truth out there, and God knows of it. Our job is to try and figure it out. Is the Quran correct about Queen Sheba, or is a hadith reporting what the Prophet said about female leaders? Is the story of a Prophet playing the flute true, or are the hadith's that curse music true?

Muslims don't want to face these questions - they're too complicated. And our scholars have made a mess of this literature. There was a time when these things were debated and free speech was allowed on these topics. Now, if you go to some parts of the world and start discussing these issues, you're bound to get abused.

Its sad that one of the safest ways to discuss these issues is on the internet, since it secures some anonymity.

Good luck on finding out answers to your questions Jaanaan.

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

We can't rely on the Bible for our knowledge, it's been altered.

Is this mentioned in our scriptures?

;) Choose A Profession 4 Above Person ;)
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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

dont you believe in the Ahadiths and traditions?

what proof do you have that those Ahadiths and traditions have not been altered?

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

What were you doing in the Masjid? The Quran doesn't tell you how to pray?

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

See everyone uses this example of prayer. Do you realize how many different sects of muslim there are and how they all pray differently, or were you deluded into thinking everyone prays like you? Do you know that some Arabs will put the Quran on the floor while they're praying (seen often in Hajj videos if you look closely)? Do you know Shias don't pray 5 times a day, they pray 3? Do you know that I've been taught at least a dozen different ways of doing the dua prayers?

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

^ and it says PLENTY of times in the Quran: Ati Allah hu wa ati ar rasool!

based on the above ayat, it is the responsibility of EVERY muslim to follow the Prophet SAW... i cant imagine how this can be done w/o hadith... that said, it has to be ensured that the hadith is correct and the links of narrations are trustable.

Imam Bukhari would sometimes research a single hadith 4 three years b4 writing it in his books... so we cant brush these aside just bcoz they are not in the Quran.

Now PCG if u have been taught to doing dua in a dozen ways (and i'd be interested in knowing what those 12 ways are), and all of them are backed by hadih (sahih), then u can practise all of them... Muhammad SAW prayed witr in like 2/3 ways, and all are backed by sahih hadith, so doing all/ either is ok.

Wassalam

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

There is a difference between following the Prophet, and making up things and saying he did x, y, z or said x, y, z and deceiving the muslim public.

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^ So what is being made up this thread?

And I would want to know 12 different ways of doing this dua in namaz as well, granted you are only following one madhab like hanafi, shaafi [or is it more than one?].

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

That's a different issue altogether.

We are talking from a POV in this thread and in Islam we don't believe in the current versions of the Bible so it's daft using them as evidence when discussing Islamic matters.

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Shi'ah's pray 5 prayers a day, they sometimes combine some of them and pray 2 at the same time.

The differences between the prayers of different sects are not major, the main elements are the same.

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1) Bilqees was a disbeliever at that time as is clear from the verses: "I found her and her nation prostrating to the sun ...." [Naml-Verse 24]
"Verily she was of a disbelieving people". [Verse 43]

2) Later, with the invitation of Hazrat Sulayman (Alaihis salâm) she brought Islam. She said: "Oh my Rabb! Verily I have wronged my soul and I have surrendered with Sulayman to Allâh, Rabb of the worlds."[Verse 44]

3) After embracing Islam, she also surrended her kingdom to Sulayman (AS) as was the order of Sulayman (AS). This is apparent in the following verse: He said: "Do you give me abundance in wealth .... go back to them, for we will most certainly come to them with such armies that they will not be able to oppose, and we shall expel them in disgrace and they w*ill be* humbled."[Verse 37]

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

That verse does not show that he stripped her of her power. Its well known that he let her continue her leadership over that land. She answered to him, of course. He did not live with her permanently - he travelled a lot and visited her on his trips to that area of his empire.

The Quran says nothing of Queen Sheba having to step down from her leadership BECAUSE she was a woman; or that she was a bad leader BECAUSE she was a woman. She was admonished not because she was a woman, but because she was a disbeliever. When she converted, that changed. Again, nothing to do with her gender. It was her believer-status that was an issue.

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

True. But who's to say which one is right? Either one of us is right, or we're both right, or we're both wrong. Take your pick.

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Re: yesterday’s friday prayers sermon

Very good question and I’ve found a very good answer too.

“The shariah of the previous ambiyâ can only be regarded as a valid argument if there is no verse of the Qurân or hadith contradicting it.”

About the permissibility of music in islam, there is difference of opinion, some say only duff is allowed and some say http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544202

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Please read verse 37 again. Also for your claim please provide any reference?

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Its called history. Almost every account of Queen Sheba and King Solomon I've ever read shows as such.

Again try and provide an ayah that directly says women cannot be leaders. The Prophet's entire life is FILLED with examples of female leadership. Furthermore, the hadith that is purported to say women should not be leaders has been shown to have possibly been fabricated according to many analysis, as no one can remember it being spoken about before the Battle of the Camel, in which Hazrat Aisha commandeered a full army into war. At that time, people didn't remember this verse? All the muslims who followed her were stupid?

The verse you provided does not say anything about Queen Sheba giving up political power and leadership over her people. Nor does God ask it of her in the Quran. The onus is on you to provide proof before making gallant claims.

Incidentally, the Queen Sheba verses are the most commonly used verses to counteract any arguments against female leadership in Islam.

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Re: yesterday’s friday prayers sermon

http://books.google.com/books?id=kJls7taCJvoC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=female+leadership+islam+queen+sheba&source=web&ots=3e3RX7VYQu&sig=u39y5uipc51EbKjA88kitWxzoOY#PPA188,M1

You asked for a reference, so I post one from a book. Honestly, if you want more references, the topic is very detailed, and its got commentary from so many scholars with so many different interpretations and analysis. This link mentions Ghazali’s take on the issue, and Mernissi’s take on the issue, as well as some opposing views. If you look up females + leadership on a search engine or look it up in Islamic literature, and you try to COMPREHENSIVELY search the literature instead of putting blinders on only looking for evidence to support YOUR claims, you’ll find the topic to be of interesting reading.

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Re: yesterday's friday prayers sermon

^Page 189 is not available so I can't read what it has to say about Bilqis. Anyway, you wrote :** Is the Quran correct about Queen Sheba, or is a hadith reporting what the Prophet said about female leaders? **

You know that the hadith is about a particular female leader's failure of success,so why are you trying to compare it with the references of Queen of Sheba in Quran in bolded part?

Imam Ghazali has also said that a woman can not take the role of Caliph, do you agree?

Only one scholar Ibn Hazm said that woman can be head of the state otherwise all the scholars say that women can't be Imam or Caliph.

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So, then the criterion is that we go by the majority of scholars? I thought Islam was not a democracy?