Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
similarly whats happening in africa with black muslims vs arab muslims! apparently the arbs muslims are butchering the black muslims and the muslim countries are just sorta standing by watching it happen! not doing anything!! sad!! so sad!!
Also i was curious why pick such a hot subject - yazid!
Also could i recommend that perhaps at the end of your speech - you and your shia female partner in debate/ discussion reiterate that despite the differences its necessary that shia's and sunni's stay united otherwise we all lose or something to that effect!
if you are going to bring up divisive topics - you should i think end on a note of the need for unity!
Yes we did, and I know so many Iraqies, Majority of them support the unity of the Shias and Sunnis, and I'm up for it too!
I didn't choose this topic, I was given to it and had to present on it, and my partner and I have no ill feelings.
Half my family is shia lol. And we get along just fine! Alhumdulillah.
Most of my friends are shia, and unity is what we do work together towards.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
Dear Crescent
If you are of the view that Yazeed Laeen has only to do with the differences found between Shia and Sunnies then certainly it is incorrect. Majority of Ahle Sunnah disown Yazeed in fact past Sunni scholars like Taftazani, Allamah Baghdadi, Alkhilal, Abu Bakr Abdul Aziz, Qadhi Abu Laila and his son Qadhi Abul Husayn. Abul Faraj Ibn Jauzi wrote a seperate book deeming it permissible to curse Yazeed. Imam of Ahle Sunnah Jalauddin Suyuti personally cursed Yazeed in his famed book Tarikh Khulfa. All the scholars belonging to Shafii school also deem it permissible to curse Yazeed, such noxious, notorious and absurd character he had.
So its just a small number of people who try to absolve yazeed from the sins he committed and their affection towards him just becase of his father. Since this category of people have immense respect for his farther therefore they just cant take that his son was alcoholic, homosexual, murderer etc while these are historic facts.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
[quote=“BOY-NICE”]
Dear Crescent
Since this category of people have immense respect for his farther therefore they just cant take that his son was alcoholic, **homosexual,
now thats a new one…
is that also included in that latest versions of history???
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
If you are of the view that Yazeed Laeen has only to do with the differences found between Shia and Sunnies then certainly it is incorrect. Majority of Ahle Sunnah disown Yazeed in fact past Sunni scholars like Taftazani, Allamah Baghdadi, Alkhilal, Abu Bakr Abdul Aziz, Qadhi Abu Laila and his son Qadhi Abul Husayn. Abul Faraj Ibn Jauzi wrote a seperate book deeming it permissible to curse Yazeed. Imam of Ahle Sunnah Jalauddin Suyuti personally cursed Yazeed in his famed book Tarikh Khulfa. All the scholars belonging to Shafii school also deem it permissible to curse Yazeed, such noxious, notorious and absurd character he had.
So its just a small number of people who try to absolve yazeed from the sins he committed and their affection towards him just becase of his father. Since this category of people have immense respect for his farther therefore they just cant take that his son was alcoholic, homosexual, murderer etc while these are historic facts.
Yes, Yazid is not the real cause of divide between sunnies and shias, i think the real rift is bcoz of concept of Imamat.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
In order to learn who was at right path between Hazrat Hussain (RA) and Yazeed let me take you in the battlefield of Karbala 61 Hijra just for few second.
On your right side you will find a small group of Hazrat Hussain supporter and on your left hand you see the 30,000 soldiers of Ibn-e-Saad (Yazid’s Army)
If I were asked which side I have to join of course I would say I love to join Hazrat Hussain without any doubt because of following reasons.
Hussain (ra) was the grandson of Muhammad e Mustafa (sww) (Shafai-e-Ummat (one who do shifat of all nations at Judgment day) how could he does shafat of someone who stand against him (his own grandson about him he said " Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain"
Hussain was son of Hazrat Ali Shair e Khuda (karam allah ho wajah)
Hussain (ra) was the son of Hazrat (‘Fatima who is the Syeda e Nisa Allameen and Khatoon e Janat (leader of Women in heaven)
Hussain was brother of Hazrat Hasan (Hasan & Hussain leader of youth in heaven)
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
IMAM ALI :
Tha'labi in his Tafsir, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkirat'u- Khasa'isi'l-Umma fi Ma'rifati'l-A'imma and others have written that there were 120,000 people gathered there. The Holy Prophet ordered a pulpit to be prepared. He mounted the pulpit and delivered a long sermon, a greater part of which contained the virtues and merits of the Commander of the Faithful. He recited most of the verses, which had been revealed in praise of Ali and reminded the people of the holy rank of the vicegerency of the Commander of the Faithful. Then the Holy Prophet said, "O you people! Have I not the greater claim than you have on your lives?" The reference is to the holy verse "The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves." (33:6)
The crowd with one voice shouted "Certainly, O messenger of Allah!" Then the Holy Prophet declared: "Of whomsoever I am the maula, (master) this Ali is his maula." After this he raised his hand and prayed to Allah. "O Allah, be you a friend to him who is a friend to him (that is, Ali) and be an enemy to him who is an enemy to him (Ali). Help him who helps him and forsake him who forsakes him.
Then a tent was pitched by order of the Holy Prophet who ordered the Commander of the Faithful, Ali to sit in the tent. The whole umma was commanded to offer bai'at (allegiance) to Ali. The Holy Prophet said that he gave this instruction in compliance with the command of Allah. The first one to offer allegiance on that day was Umar. Then Abu Bakr, Uthman, Talha, and Zubair followed suit, and all these people continued offering allegiance for three days (i.e., while the Holy Prophet remained there).
1. Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi - Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch. IV.
2.Ibn Khaldun - Muqaddima (more refe available if requested)
2.Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch. 4"Do you know that I have greater claim on the believers than they have on their own selves?" All of them said: "Yes." Then the Holy Prophet said: "Of whomsoever I am "maula" (master), this Ali is his "maula" (master)."
Question is why then After death Saqifa took place for selection of Calip after declaration the above Hadith??
Hadith proves that Ali possessed three characteristics: (1) The rank of a prophet; (2) The rank of successor to the Holy Prophet; and (3) his superior position among all the companions of the Holy Prophet. Like the Holy Prophet, Ali's followers likened him to Aaron, who was a prophet, was invested with the caliphate of Moses, and was superior to all the Bani Isra'il.
Holy Qur'an in support of this point
"Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Noah, and to the prophets after him. We revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, and Jacob and the tribes, and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave to David Psalms." (4:163)
"And mention Moses in the Book; surely he was one purified, and he was an apostle, a prophet. And We called to him from the blessed side of the mountain, and We made him draw nigh, holding communion (with us). And We gave to him out of Our Mercy his brother, Aaron, a prophet." (19:51-53)
Five of 124000(Prophets) them were major prophets: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last of the prophets, Muhammad, whose rank is the highest.
Aaron was one of those prophets who was not permanent or independent. He was subordinate to the shari'a (religious code) of his brother, Moses. Ali reached the rank of prophethood but was not elevated to the rank of prophet per se since he was subordinate to the shari'a of Muhammad. In this hadith of Manzila, the purpose of the prophet was to tell people that, just as Aaron had reached the rank of prophethood but was subordinate to Moses, Ali reached the rank of prophethood. The Imamate was conferred upon him, but he was subordinate to Muhammad.
AHLE SUNNAT VIEW
Muhammad Bin Talha Shafi'i, in his Matalibu's-Su'ul, page 19, **after explaining the rank and position of Aaron, says: "The gist of the matter is that the position of Aaron in relation to Moses was that Aaron was his brother, his representative, partner in prophethood, and his successor or vicegerent when Moses was on a journey. The Prophet of Allah has also in this hadith indicated **that Ali held the same position as Aaron held, except prophethood, which has been excluded by his saying: 'There will be no prophet after me.'"
Mulla Ali Bin Sultan Muhammad Harawi Qari. In his Mirqat-e-Sharh bar Mishkat, he says, commenting on the hadith of Manzila, "There is an indication in this hadith that if there were any prophet of Allah after the last of the prophets, it would have been Ali."
Another prominent ulema who has interpreted this hadith the same way is the well known scholar, Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti. He writes towards the end of his Baghiatu'l-Wu'az Fi Tabaqatu'l-Huffaz, giving the chain of chroniclers up to Jabir Abdullah Ansari, that the holy Prophet told the Commander of the Faithful, Ali "Had there been any prophet of Allah after me, it would have been you!"
Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Faqih Shafi'i says in the second of the six Mawadda in his book Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, quoting a narration from Anas Bin Malik, that the Prophet said: "Verily, Allah made me superior to all the prophets, chose me for excellence, and made for me a successor, my cousin, Ali. Through him, He strengthened my shoulders, just as the shoulders of Moses were strengthened by Aaron. He, (Ali) is my vicegerent and assistant. If there were any prophet after me, it would have been Ali, but there will be no prophet after me."
Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in Durr-e-Mansur, the renowned theologian, Ahmad Tha'labi, in Kashfu'l-Bayan, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in Tadhkiratu'l-Khawasu'l-Umma, in connection with the verse of Wilaya quotes from Abu Dharr Ghifari and Asma Bint Umais (wife of Abu Bakr) that they said that one day they offered their noon prayers in the mosque when the Prophet was present. A beggar began asking for alms. No one gave him anything. Ali was bowing (in the ritual bow). When he pointed to his finger, the beggar removed the ring from his finger.
The holy Prophet saw what happened, and raising his head towards the sky, said "O Allah, my brother Moses prayed to you: 'O my Lord, expand for me my breast and make easy for me my task. Appoint for me a helper from my family, Aaron, my brother.'" The verse was revealed telling Moses that his prayer was granted. Allah appointed for him a helper and strengthened his hands and gave them such power and authority that no one could overpower them. "...and Moses said to his brother Aaron: 'Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers.'" (7:142)
The prayer of the Prophet had not ended when the angel Gabriel appeared and revealed this verse to him: 'Only Allah is your Friend and His Apostle and those who believe, those who maintain prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.'" (5:55)
MORE CLEAR HADITH's
1) Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad and Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Shafi'i in Mawaddati'l-Qurba towards the end of the fourth Mawadda, have recorded that the Holy Prophet said, "O Ali! You shall discharge responsibilities on my behalf, and you are my Vicegerent over my following."
2) Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in Musnad, Ibn Maghazili Faqih Shafi'i in Manaqib and Tha'labi in his Tafsir (commentary) have reported that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "O Ali! You are my brother, successor, vicegerent, and the payer of my debt."
3) Abu Qasim Husain Bin Muhammad (Raghib Ispahani) in Mahadhiratu'l-Udaba wa Muhawaratu'sh-Shu'ara wa'l-Balagha (printed in Amira-e-Shazafiyya, Seyyed Husain Afandi, 1326 A.H.), part II, page 213, quotes from Ibn Malik that the Prophet said: "Verily, my friend, helper, Vicegerent, and the choicest of men whom I am leaving behind, who will pay my debt and fulfill my promise, is Ali Bin Abu Talib."
(4) Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, at the beginning of the sixth Mawadda, narrates from the second Caliph, Umar Bin Khattab, that when the Prophet established the relationship of brotherhood among the companions, he said: "This Ali is my brother in this world and in the Hereafter; he is my successor from among my kin and my Vicegerent among my umma; he is the heir of my knowledge and the payer of my debt; whatever he owes to me, I owe to him. His profit is my profit, and his loss is my loss; one who is his friend is my friend; one who is his enemy is my enemy."
(5) In the same Mawadda, he quotes a hadith from Anas bin Malik, which I have mentioned earlier. Toward its end he says that the Holy Prophet said, "He (Ali) is my Vicegerent and helper."
(6) Muhammad Bin Ganji Shafi'i quotes a hadith from Abu Dharr Ghifari in his book, Kifayatu't-Talib, that the Prophet said, "The flag of Ali, the commander of the believers, the leader of the bright-faced people, and my Vicegerent, will come to me at the Fountain of Kauthar."
(7) Baihaqi, Khatib Khawarizmi, and Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i write in their Manaqib that the Prophet said to Ali: "It is not proper that I depart from the people without you becoming my successor since you are the choicest of the believers after me."
(8) Imam Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i, one of the Imams of the Six Books of Traditions, narrates in detail from Ibn Abbas the virtues of Ali in connection with hadith 23 in Khasa'isu'l-Alawi. After describing the rank of the prophet Aaron, the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are my Vicegerent after me for every believer."
This hadith and others in which the Holy Prophet used the phrase "after me" clearly prove that Ali was his immediate successor.
(9) There is the "Hadith of Creation," which has been narrated in different ways. Imam Bin Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib, and Dailami in Firdaus have quoted the Prophet as saying: "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created. From the loins of the Prophet Adam and through his holy progeny, the Light was inherited by Abdu'l-Muttalib, and from him it was divided and inherited by Abdullah, (father of the Prophet) and Abu Talib, (father of Ali). I was granted prophethood, and Ali was granted the caliphate."
(10) Hafiz Abu Ja'far Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari (d.310 A.H.) writes in his Kitabu'l-Wilaya that the Prophet said in the beginning of his renowned address at Ghadir-e-Khum: "The angel Gabriel has conveyed Allah's command to me that I stop at this place and inform the people that Ali Bin Abu Talib is my brother, my successor, my Caliph (Vicegerent) after me. O men! Allah has made Ali your Wali (guardian), and Imam (guide). Obedience to him is obligatory on each one of you; his command is supreme; his utterance is truth; curse be on him who opposes him; Allah's mercy be on him who befriends him."
(11) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda reports from the Manaqib of Ahmad, and he from Ibn Abbas, a hadith which describes many of Ali's merits. I quote all of it. Ibn Abbas reports that the Prophet said: "O Ali, you are the bearer of my knowledge, my Wali and friend, my successor, the heir of my knowledge, and my Caliph. You are the trustee of the heritage of all the preceding prophets. You are the confidant of Allah on this earth and Allah's proof for the whole of creation. You are a pillar of Iman (faith) and the guardian of Islam. You are a lamp in darkness, a light of guidance, and for the people of the world you are a raised standard. O Ali! He who follows you is delivered; he who disobeys you will perish; you are the luminous way, and a straight path; you are the leader of pure men, and the head of the believers; to whomsoever I am Master (Maula), you are also his Master (Maula), and I am the Master of every believer (man or woman). Only he is your friend who is born of lawful wedlock. Allah did not transport me to the heavens to speak with me without telling me, 'O Muhammad! Convey my salutation to Ali and tell him that he is the Imam of my friends and the Light of worshippers.' Congratulations to you, O Ali, on this marvelous excellence."
(12) Abu Mu'ayyid Muwafiqu'd-Din, the best orator of Khawarizm, in his Faza'il of the Commander of the Faithful, printed in 1313 A.H., Chapter XIX, page 240, quotes the sources who reported that the Prophet said: "When I reached Sidratu'l-Muntaha ('the farthest Lote Tree,' the highest station during the Mi'raj), I was addressed thus: 'O Muhammad! When you tested the people, whom did you find the most obedient?' I said 'Ali.' Allah then said, 'You have told the truth, Muhammad!' Further, He said, 'Have you selected a Vicegerent who will convey your knowledge to the people, and teach my servants from My Book those things which they do not know?' I said, 'O Allah! Whomever you select, I will select.' He said, 'I have selected Ali for you. I make him your Vicegerent and successor.' And He furnished Ali with His knowledge and forbearance. He is the Commander of the Faithful whom no one can equal in rank among his predecessors or successors."
There are many such hadith in your authentic books. Some of your just ulema, like Nizzam Basri, have acknowledged this fact. Salahu'd-Din Safdi in his Wafa Bi'l-Wafiyya, in connection with the account of Ibrahim Bin Sayyar Bin Hani Basri, known as Nizzam Mu'tazali, says: "The Prophet of Allah confirmed the Imamate of Ali and appointed him the Imam (Guide). The companions of the Prophet were also fully aware of it, but Umar, for the sake of Abu Bakr, covered the Imamate of Ali with a curtain."
It is clear from your own books, hadith, and Qur'anic commentaries that Ali occupied the highest position of virtue. Khatib Khawarizmi reports from Ibn Abbas in Manaqib, Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in his Kifayatu't-Talib, Sibt Ibn Jauzi in his Tadhkira, Ibn Sabbagh Maliki in Fusulu'l-Mawadda, Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda and Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Mawadda V, quotation from the second Caliph, Umar Bin Khattab - all confirming with slight variations of words - that the Prophet said: "If all the trees were pens, if the seas were ink, if all the jinn and men were recorders - even then the virtues of Ali Bin Abu Talib could not be enumerated."
THIS IS THE RANK OF IMAM AND CHOSEN CALIPH: **
**Imam Ali (as) says:
*"I am the servant of God and the brother of his Messenger, and I am the most righteous one (al siddiq al-akbar). No one other than I can say this but a liar and an inventor of falsehoods, I performed prayer with the Messenger of God seven years before other men". (history of Al Tabari V.6) *
Sunni scholar *Muhammad Ayub Khan *letter of Imam Ali(as).
"I swear! I hope when Allah will award people will award people in accordance with their service and sanctity to Islam, Allah and His Messenger, the greatest share will be ours, the family of the Holy Prophet (SAW) because we, the family members of the Prophet (SAW) have been first to accept the faith and testify his Prophethood when he invited the people to accept the Faith and believe in Oneness of Allah. Thus in no time we got the exalted and respected position. None of the Arab inhabitants save us worshipped Allah.
Observing this our people conspired to assassinate our Holy Prophet (SAW) and uproot us. Accordingly they hatched deep conspiracies and took many drastic steps (against us). They restrained our movements, withheld our economic activities, exposed us to constant fear and danger, posted spies and guards on us, compelled us to move towards desolate barren mountains, fanned the fore of battle against us and made written agreements between themselves that none should provide us means nor establish matrimonial relations, nor transact any business with us. Nobody should offer us shelter or protection unless we hand over the Messenger oh Allah (SAW) to them for assassination and amputation. We could secure peace during the Hajj days only)
But Allah, the Almighty, bestowed on us the courage to protect and guard the Messenger of Allah (SAW) from the danger of those days, defend him, shoot arrows against enemies to save his honor and draw sword in his support. In this struggle the object of our faithfulness was to gain recompense from Allah only, and those of the infidels, the object was to help their families. It was clear that among Quraish those who had embraced Islam were safe from atrocities, which beset us, because some of them were protected (by their infidel allies) under the previous agreements and others belonged to the tribes, which were their protectors. Therefore, they remained safe from the destruction and killings we suffered. The major succor for us was the Will of Allah.
Then Allah ordained his Prophet (SAW) for migration and thereafter, allowed them to fight against the infidels. During the peak hours of the battles when people wanted to keep themselves safe and the enemy would throw challenge to combat, he (SAW) would advance his family members to meet them. Thus he (SAW) saved his companions from the swords and the spears of the enemy. Consequently Ubaida ibn Haris (RAA) fell martyr in the battle of Badr, Hamza (RAA) in the battle of Uhud, and Jafar and Zaid (RAA) in the battle of Mauta; and if you like I might name another person (meaning himself) who, like these martyrs many a time yearned to earn martyrdom while fighting along with the Prophet (SAW) (in battles). But the death hastened in the case of those martyrs and deferred in my case. Their adoption of virtue was due to Allah's Kindness and Favor. Thereafter, I neither heard of nor seen any one who excelled those persons whose names I have given to you. For sincerity and obedience to Allah and his Prophet (SAW) none could match them to face hardship in adversity or prosperity, in battles or other occasions of danger in the company of Holy Prophet (SAW) Mohajireen possess many other outstanding qualities and Allah will compensate for their noble deeds.
It is pity that time has so changed that now that man who is neither superior to me nor has any superiority (in Islam) over me, which none possesses except me is rising in opposition.
It is, therefore, not strange that any claimant may claim (for anything) not known to me may claim for anything not known to me or not in my opinion, in the knowledge of Allah. In all circumstances we must praise Allah.
Then you have mentioned my bearing malice against the Caliphs, my late offering of oath of allegiance to them and revolt against them, I seek the refuge of Allah from revolt ( I definitely did not commit it). As regards my late approach for oath of allegiance and disapproval of their Caliphate, it is not for me to offer any apology to people because Allah has already made a decision (on Caliphate) at the time of the passing away of the Holy Prophet (SAW). (That is to say) when the Quraish claimed leadership for their group while the Ansar (local inhabitants of Madinah) for themselves, the latter handed over the Caliphate and government to the emigrants on yielding to their plea that Holy Prophet (SAW) belonged to them, therefore, they were more deserving for the leadership. Consequently when they (emigrants) established their right for Caliphate vis-୶is Ansar on the basis of their relationship with the Holy Prophet (SAW) then one who would be nearer in relationship with the Prophet (SAW) would also be more deserving for that Caliphate. In the absence of this principle the Ansar were more rightful to the Caliphate on the basis of their majority. (Now) I fail to understand whether my companions (the emigrants) have been absolved to the charge of snatching my right or have done injustice to Ansar. But nay I have deduced that my right was snatched and I have abandoned my right in their favor for Allah's pleasure. May Allah forgive them".
Any who can prove From QURAN that 1st Calip (ABU BAKRE) was declare by ALLAH AND THEN PROPHET MOHAMMAD (sa)????? Please come forward.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
Subhanallah! How we muslims have mastered to use our scriptures and historical sources of knowledge to caste away and butcher each other. A post topic analysis would reveal nothing good came out of this thread. History should be used to learn lessons so previous mistakes are not repeated. Our emotional maturity and logic is in a decline. Sunni's who view muslims as Shia's and Shia's who view muslims as Sunni's are a banner of division without even discussing the history.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
USresident, more ppl read this thread than wh posted in it, and more ppl posted here than those who argued, and more ppl argued than those who focused on the differences.
the thread served a purpose if one person walked away with one ounce of more knowledge than he or she had before reading this thread.
if nothing else, I am that one person, I had not read the statements of yazid about islamic being false before, so ai walk away with more knowledge than before and this this thread was very useful to me, yes there were distractions, but thats okay.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
who cares what who believes! religion is a personal choice, you would not want someone to call u a kafir for believeing in the caliph’s and shias dont like being callef kfirs b/c of their bleief in Hazrat Ali, and granted while it goes against most of our perosnal beliefs for any group to claim there are more prohets after the last one - while we may all think this is clear in the koran - maybe somehow some ppl will find different things - ahmadis are not he only ones i hear there are other groups lie agha khani’s and nation of islam!!!
all i am saying is for the benefit of all muslims! can we not put all these differences behind! specially since its not like b/c u disagree with them the other person - ahmadiy or not will suddenly change thier belief! chances are you will just further alienate them cause anger and hatred b/t groups and accomplish nothing positive-
i am just saying lets stop being divisive!!! there is sooooo much more we have in common! so much more, can we not focus on that!!!
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
the thread served a purpose if one person walked away with one ounce of more knowledge than he or she had before reading this thread.
if nothing else, I am that one person, I had not read the statements of yazid about islamic being false before, so ai walk away with more knowledge than before and this this thread was very useful to me, yes there were distractions, but thats okay.
Different temperaments. Sir, I hope that knowledge will resound some lessons in the future. There are no conclusions here, all the knowledge has little to do with our articles of faith. You cannot change the past. The praises or insults heaped upon the muslim personalities of our history will not bring you an inch closer to Allah SWT, its only your deeds not your discussions that bring about some definitive good. In reality Sunnis and Shias will resort to even throwing each other out of the fold of Islam when we start discussing history. If the knowledge you walk away with from here only increases your bias for other muslims then what good is that knowledge? It works against our unity.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
Facts are facts and fictions may become propaganda (and acceptable by many) but can never become facts. Few things all Muslim should remember are that:
Quran could not have anything that is not fact. It is obvious, as Allah has all the knowledge of past, present and future, and has authority (Qudrat) over all that has to happen, thus Allah cannot say (or predict) anything that is contrary to facts.
Nothing that happens (happened, happening or would happen) in this world is not within the control of Allah or that it happened without the will and consent of Allah, be it good or bad. (Will or consent of Allah does not mean approval of Allah)
If Allah wants anything to happen (or anything he desires), it does happen. No power or force exists, that can stop what Allah wills or desires.
Prophet (SAW) could not have said anything contrary to facts as his knowledge was from Allah, and certainly, knowledge coming from Allah cannot be contrary to facts. Thus, any hadith that is contrary to facts cannot be words of Prophet (SAW) but has to be concocted hadith.
A Muslim should also remember that there is no such thing as ‘IF’ in Islam when it comes to facts. What happened (gone by), a Muslim takes it as will of Allah and accept that without ‘IF’ and ‘But’ (though hope that whatever happened was for good as many things we do not know that could be good and bad for future, contrary to what it seems at the time).
A Muslim can strive for a thing (for or against) before it happens but after it happens, a Muslim should accept that as will of Allah.
It does not matter that what happened was good or bad, as good and bad, all happens with the will and consent of Allah. One should always accept what happened as will of Allah and even though one can say that what happened was good or bad (according to one’s belief), but one cannot say that what happened was not meant to happen (or that, it happened against the will of Allah, though a thing can happen against the approval of Allah).
Example: It is fine to say that ‘it was wrong, barbaric and evil act that Hind (mother of Muawiah) chew raw heart of Hamza (RA)’, but to say that it happened against the will of Allah is wrong].
Now it is fact that:
Abu Bakr (RA) was the first Khalif.
Umar (RA) was the second Khalif.
Usman (RA) was the third Khalif.
Ali (RA) was the fourth Khalif.
Thus, regardless of what one believes, one should accept the facts regarding Khalafat as will of Allah and should not say that what happened was contrary to the will of Allah. (It happened according to the approval of Allah (or not) or was it right or wrong, it is different matter).
Regardless: What happened in the past was not something that is ‘unconcerned past’. All what happened in the past has moulded us what we are now and our views (and beliefs) regarding what happened in the past (be that good or bad) would surely going to play a part in our questioning on the day of Judgement. That day, every beliefs (and views), would be questioned, and our fate (Kismet about our end in Hell or Heaven) would largely depend on that.
Anyone (even those living today) in love with Abu-Jahl (and those who were wrong) would be with Abu-Jahl and anyone who will be in love with Prophet (SAW) and those who were righteous would be with Prophet (SAW).
[One cannot love Yazid and still expect to enter Heaven where only righteous would go and enemies of Prophet (SAW) and his family cannot go. Heaven where Hasnain (RA) (Hasnain = Hasan plus Hussain, a name used as combined name for both) would be leaders, how can Yazid or his sympathisers can go there, is not only incomprehensible, rather completely impossible]
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
Yes it is, and no matter how you use this knowledge its always going to rub against another muslim. Unless you have counter knowledge for what you know now, you will always oppose another muslim with another view point. And again what is being debated has doubts about its veracity so whenever you discuss it you are unconsciencely spreading lies or rumours because you cannot verify any of it. Such knowledge causes more harm than good.
None of this history has been authenticated or developed like in the case of Hadith where we can have somewhat blind faith of a lesser degree. None of this kind of history will help you live your daily life but I guarantee it will definitely make it divisive at some point.
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
i am sorry but u keep on forcing me to repeat the christian anology here…
christians too say that if u believe in Christ u r in heaven, and if u dont believe in him (i.e to be the son of God) than u have no place in heaven…
when u tell them that jesus was not the son, but a prophet of God, they think u hate him…
Re: ~! Yazid? Was he really what they make him out to be?
^ that was never a question, the question was ..was he has big of a jerk as some think. the end result it that ppl agree that he was a jerk, but I think ther eis no agreement on the magnitude of his jerk-ness
