Ya Ali madad

[pwner]

Re: Ya Ali madad

So much takfeer. Great!

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Ya Ali madad

One Shair of The Great Allama Iqbal, decides this matter Once for All , as ::

Q , Madad Mangtaa ha Oroo K Darr Say Iqbal......
Vo Konn Sa Kam Ha, Jo Hotaa Nhe Taray Parvar-digaar Say..

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

@psyah

This is also where I must say I cannot agree in principle with saying “Ya Ali madad” … It is not even something that we ask from RasoolAllah (SAW) … And it comes back to the definition of shirk …

Du’a and 'ibadah are both to be directed to Allah (SWT) … The Key Chapter - the Opener - The Fatihah … Gives us clues to what is the criteria of shirk …

A du’a is asking for help and ibadah is making an offering … It hence confines us to understand that … There are some things that are Right of Allah (SWT) alone and we ask them from Him and there are some things we can offer and they too are expressly the right of Allah (SWT) …

If the argument of not being good enough to ask directly was valid … Then the argument of not being good enough to worship directly would be too … And that is what the mushrik Makkans were already doing … Before the advent of Islam.

However, since I am also a believer of the idea of great and noble people of Allah (SWT) which are prophets and companions of prophets and martyrs to be alive … Then asking from them certain things is okay … So it all falls on the interpretation of that word madad …

If we ask them for what is the express right of Allah (SWT) like forgiveness of sins then that is haram and shirk … Or like to make our destiny good, or for wealth, or health, and so on … All shirk … If we ask them to smile on us on the Day of Judgment, or if we say Salam to them, or if we ask RasoolAllah (SAW) to provide waseelah to us … Then that is specifically impossible to be asked from Allah (SWT) … and not within the rights outlined by shirk …

I have huge problems with replacing a Salam which is the right of Allah (SWT) - to be granted peace and that being replaced by the name of another in the same setting … i.e. As a greeting!

If this statement means something else … No one so far has had the courage to explain it … It is because for them it IS an alternative to Salam … :nono: … In the absence of not having a clear understanding of what is meant by the term madad here … I would give the benefit of the doubt and say that this phrase as a greeting is most definitely a reprehensible bidd’a.

Some people refrain from asking anything from the holy men of Allah (SWT) … This is also a safe position because they have saved themselves of shirk and bidd’a … If we are really going to step close to the boundary we NEED to know very well what defines that boundary or else we could be pushed out of it …

You should ask directly from Allah for your needs. But you can not call waseela like Ya Ali Madad the shirk either.
If ‘iyyaka nastaeen…’ means Ya Ghous Madad is not allowed then ‘al Hamdo lillah’ (Hamd is for Allah) should also mean that no Hamd can be done except for Allah. Yet we know that Prophet’s very name is Muhammad (One With Hamd)!

Cherry picking words from Quran like people typically do is a sure sign of going astray. Every sect gives Quran as a proof of its authenticity. Kharijis did it to justify the fatwa of kufr on Ali.

If ‘iyyaka nastaeen…’ really be implemented then dialing 911 is shirk as well.

---

Comparing Ya Ali Madad with Meccan calls of help from Laat and Uzza is a preposterous argument. I think it was ibn Wahhab who used it for the first time in Islam. It shows what a low life he was to compare Laat and Uzza with the Prophet and his Ahle Bait.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Ya Ali madad

One Shair of The Great Allama Iqbal, decides this matter Once for All , as ::

Q , Madad Mangtaa ha Oroo K Darr Say Iqbal......
Vo Konn Sa Kam Ha, Jo Hotaa Nhe Taray Parvar-digaar Say..
ALLAH is closer than ur shah-Rug". He helps directly, wethr u accept it or not. We do not need any third Person in the form of Wasila or link, between us and ALLAH.
All u guys, keep on doin what u r doin, Ali (R.A) + Peer Fakir + Wasila theory are enough for u, good for u. WHILE ALLAH IS ENOUGH FOR ME..
You guys must Study ISLAM thoroughly. I do not want to waste my time as I Know u guys are not mentaly Prepared to accept it. No offense plz..
ALLAH IS ENOUGH. That is it

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

@bao_bihari

and how to interpret

إِيَّاكَ نَعۡبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسۡتَعِينُ

THE HELP, The Ultimate Help is from Allah alone. Just like THE LISTENER, THE SEER, THE ALI; is Allah.
It was Allah Himself who gave others ability to listen. It was Allah Himself who gave others the ability to see ... similarly it was Allah Himself who gave others the ability to help ... with his permission or on his behalf.

I am curious how you guys interpret "Al Hamdo lillahe Rabbil Alameen". I already said in the last post what my opinion is about it.

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

ALLAH IS ENOUGH. That is it

Then why does kalima have the second part about the Prophet? Why are there angels? Couldn't Allah do it all alone? Couldn't Allah come to give Quran to the Prophet himself instead of using Jibrael? Couldn't Allah take away life Himself instead of asking Izrael to do it for him?

Think about your argument. It will blow off your mind.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Ya Ali madad

Khoji, you are so wrong, infact absolutely wrong. YES, kalima, does have second Part about Prophet (PBUH), BUT KALIMA DOES NOT ORDER US TO ASK HELP FROM PROPHET (PBUH). Similarly, there are angelz, but it does not mean that we should ask help from angels becz ALLAH does not Do Work himself. We ask help from ALLAH and then ALLAH orders his angels to Do the work.. But you People think that becz Angels are appointed to do the work, so we Should ask angels directly for help, so wrong, so wrong, so wrong. Agr ALLAH na chahain tou Farishtay Kuch be nhe Kar Saktay, Mister Khoji. Think about it, And plz do not mind. Tell me, if u ask help from Ali (R.A) or any other Peer fakir, and ALLAH does NOT Want to help u , then will angles and ALI (R.A) Be able to help u? Similarly, If u ask help from Ali (R.A) and ALI (R.A) does not want to help u, but ALLAH wants to help u, then tell me, will not angels help u ? Yar Simple c bat ha. Magr ap logo ko q samaj nhe aa rahi, mary bhi.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Ya Ali madad

In case, if ALLAH gives otherz the ability to help , even then we should ask ALLAH for help , becz ALLAH is the one who gave otherz the ability to help and ALLAH is the Orignal source.. I do not agree to ur statement that one can use Powerz on the behalf of ALLAH. Specially dead People like Ali (R.A), and other Peer Fakeer who are dead in their graves just like other human. Insan, insan ki help nhe kar sakta mary bhi. ALLAH is enough for all mankind.

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

@Princejall

Khoji, you are so wrong, infact absolutely wrong. YES, kalima, does have second Part about Prophet (PBUH), BUT KALIMA DOES NOT ORDER US TO ASK HELP FROM PROPHET (PBUH). Similarly, there are angelz, but it does not mean that we should ask help from angels becz ALLAH does not Do Work himself. We ask help from ALLAH and then ALLAH orders his angels to Do the work.. But you People think that becz Angels are appointed to do the work, so we Should ask angels directly for help, so wrong, so wrong, so wrong. Agr ALLAH na chahain tou Farishtay Kuch be nhe Kar Saktay, Mister Khoji. Think about it, And plz do not mind. Tell me, if u ask help from Ali (R.A) or any other Peer fakir, and ALLAH does NOT Want to help u , then will angles and ALI (R.A) Be able to help u? Similarly, If u ask help from Ali (R.A) and ALI (R.A) does not want to help u, but ALLAH wants to help u, then tell me, will not angels help u ? Yar Simple c bat ha. Magr ap logo ko q samaj nhe aa rahi, mary bhi.

sigh.
You won here. I can’t argue with you.

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

In case, if ALLAH gives otherz the ability to help , even then we should ask ALLAH for help , becz ALLAH is the one who gave otherz the ability to help and ALLAH is the Orignal source..

THEN DON'T YOU DARE CALL 911 AGAIN!

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Ya Ali madad

^hahahahahahahahaha. OK

[bao_bihari]

Re: Ya Ali madad

THE HELP, The Ultimate Help is from Allah alone. Just like THE LISTENER, THE SEER, THE ALI; is Allah. It was Allah Himself who gave others ability to listen. It was Allah Himself who gave others the ability to see ... similarly it was Allah Himself who gave others the ability to help ... with his permission or on his behalf.

I am curious how you guys interpret "Al Hamdo lillahe Rabbil Alameen". I already said in the last post what my opinion is about it.

Mind explaining the colored quote?

[Surdar_Asif]

Re: Ya Ali madad

One Shair of The Great Allama Iqbal, decides this matter Once for All , as :: Q , Madad Mangtaa ha Oroo K Darr Say Iqbal...... Vo Konn Sa Kam Ha, Jo Hotaa Nhe Taray Parvar-digaar Say..

So many kids here that it is impossible to spoon feed them with basic corrections. You guys seem to not even show basic understanding of wordly concepts let alone commenting on Allama's work, forget about the book of God which you people seem to only read selective parts of and that too with big wide blinkers on. Ask an elder to read and explain to you Allama Iqbal's 'Asrar e Khudi' and think about how Iqbal introuduces Imam Ali whom Allama Iqbal calls "The Hand of God".

Qoum kya cheez kay, qoumoun ki Imamat hay kiya
Isko kiya samjhein ye bicharay, dou raka't kay Imam
-Allama Iqbal

[Sa1eem]

Re: Ya Ali madad

^ Peace Sa1eem

No body is saying Allah (SWT) helps directly ... But if they did say that they would not be wrong ... Sometimes Allah (SWT) helps directly without intermediaries ...

Rather people here are saying we should ask Allah (SWT) directly for help ... How Allah (SWT) chooses to fulfil that request is up to His Majesty to deal with our affairs. … … …

Brother Salaam.

Don’t you think, instead of ‘should’ right and appropriate word should be ‘could’?

Asking help directly is fine, but I hope you should have put some thoughts to my last post. In my last post I quoted an Ayah 4:64. Can you read the ayah again and tell me, what Allah is telling people to do?

Surah 4, ayah 64: We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the **Messenger had asked forgiveness for them**, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

From above ayah, what I can understand is that, Allah is telling Muslims … actually Sahabas of Prophet (SAW) … that it is better for Muslims who wronged themselves (did sin), when repenting (doing Istagfar) they go to Prophet (SAW) and ask Allah’s forgiveness from Prophet (SAW) … and then Prophet (SAW) ask forgiveness for them from Allah … and if it was done this way … using Prophet (SAW) as intermediary … then sinners would have indeed found Allah most merciful … and that means, they would have got forgiven.

So, in this ayah it is clear that Allah is advising people to make Prophet (SAW) an intermediary between them and Allah, even when asking forgiveness from Allah for their sins … or instead of asking forgiveness directly from Allah it is better that they go to Prophet (SAW) and ask forgiveness from Allah through him (SAW) as intermediary.

Now, people advised in ayah are Sahabas and certainly if Allah is close to our jugular vein, Allah must be close to their jugular vein too … still, Allah is not saying that to ask forgiveness directly from Allah, rather go through Prophet (SAW) and make him intermediary.

Actually, it is clear from 'ayah 4:64' that Allah prefer that people approach Allah (even when asking forgiveness) through intermediaries who Allah likes (or who are close to Allah), and if those intermediaries ask Allah on behalf of those (people) who approached them, Allah look at dua of intermediaries mercifully ... more mercifully than dua made directly to Allah by people.

It seems, today we have a new breed of people (aka Wahabis and kharjees) who think they are much better placed in front of Allah then even Sahabas, and thus it hurts their ego to reach Allah through intermediaries, so they prefer direct hot-line contact with Allah for their dua. I know that trying to reach Allah directly is fine, but their denial of reaching Allah through intermediaries shows their ignorance of Islam, their belief of self-importance, and their ego as big as Iblees.

[vroom]

Re: Ya Ali madad

salam

@psyah

This is also where I must say I cannot agree in principle with saying “Ya Ali madad” … It is not even something that we ask from RasoolAllah (SAW) … And it comes back to the definition of shirk …

Psyah, I never expected such a mistake from you. It comes back to definition of shirk but if it was asking from RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Alihi wa Sallam it would be better? No, No That’s not how tawheed and shirk work

Du’a and 'ibadah are both to be directed to Allah (SWT) … The Key Chapter - the Opener - The Fatihah … Gives us clues to what is the criteria of shirk …

what are the clues to the criteria of shirk you find in Al-Fatiha?

A du’a is asking for help and ibadah is making an offering … It hence confines us to understand that … There are some things that are Right of Allah (SWT) alone and we ask them from Him and there are some things we can offer and they too are expressly the right of Allah (SWT) …

A dua should contain All elements of Worship but a call to other then Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala does not contain the elements of worship, so it remains a call and not ibadah (worship)

so like we allow kissing of hands and feet, and do not say it is prostration

Also the Sajda of Tazeem is a great example that not everything that is similar to an act of ibadah is necessarily an act of Shirk or Ibadah. They are both Sajda and Sajda, but only one qualifies as Ibadah. The first thing Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala did was to clarify this. SubhanAllah

If the argument of not being good enough to ask directly was valid … Then the argument of not being good enough to worship directly would be too … And that is what the mushrik Makkans were already doing … Before the advent of Islam.

I think the only comment to suggest such a thing (impossibility of asking directly) was aimed at answering a previous post in a certain way. Nobody has that it is not recommended to go straight to Allah Most Merciful

However, since I am also a believer of the idea of great and noble people of Allah (SWT) which are prophets and companions of prophets and martyrs to be alive … Then asking from them certain things is okay … So it all falls on the interpretation of that word madad …

If it was shirk then it wouldn’t be ‘ok’ at all

The word ‘madad’ is irrelevant or almost irrelevant because the same request can be made without using the word Madad. so it would be ‘Ya Ali’ meaning Ya Ali [Madad]

If we ask them for what is the express right of Allah (SWT) like forgiveness of sins then that is haram and shirk … Or like to make our destiny good, or for wealth, or health, and so on … All shirk … If we ask them to smile on us on the Day of Judgment, or if we say Salam to them, or if we ask RasoolAllah (SAW) to provide waseelah to us … Then that is specifically impossible to be asked from Allah (SWT) … and not within the rights outlined by shirk …

Rights outlined by shirk are ‘non given’ attributes. Anything that is (believed to be) given to the person to distribute is not shirk. so possibly a false belief but not shirk as long as its a ‘given’ quality and as long as it is not believed to be equal as Allah All Mighty Ability or Attribute. Some words can be used for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala and Creation but it does not count as shirk (as long as background belief is Ok). Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala has shown us this in the Quran. The lesson here is that even that is not shirk, but a great virtue given by Allah Most Merciful

I have huge problems with replacing a Salam which is the right of Allah (SWT) - to be granted peace and that being replaced by the name of another in the same setting … i.e. As a greeting!

If this statement means something else … No one so far has had the courage to explain it … It is because for them it IS an alternative to Salam … :nono: … In the absence of not having a clear understanding of what is meant by the term madad here … I would give the benefit of the doubt and say that this phrase as a greeting is most definitely a reprehensible bidd’a.

As a greeting it is a (possible) Bidah, (possibly) mocking and possibly shirk but nobody here has given the isamaili pov

Some people refrain from asking anything from the holy men of Allah (SWT) … This is also a safe position because they have saved themselves of shirk and bidd’a … If we are really going to step close to the boundary we NEED to know very well what defines that boundary or else we could be pushed out of it …

If they hold ‘Ya Ali Madad’ or similar calls to be shirk in all circumstances then they are a reprehensible Bidah themselves, and if they propagate their Bidah then they are a people who are subverting Islam to their confusion.
Their groups also propagate the confusion in the first place!

It is not necessary to call ‘ya Ali Madad’ or similar but at the same time it is not shirk and it is permissible (not mustahab as far as i know). Everyone must respect this as a valid Islamic position

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Ya Ali madad

Brother Saleem - First of all allow me to give let me tell that I’m really envious of your typing speed and the long posts that you can generate. I salute for this.

May Allah Almighty give you more speed so that you can dazzle the viewers with immense words that you can generate within a few hours – Admirable!

Having got that out of the way, I am going to have a go at your complete post so that you know I didn’t skip any point raised by you.

@Sa1eem

Brother ‏Ibn Sadique: Please learn Islam and do not accuse people of what they have never said or wrote … For instance, you want to accuse me that I wrote ‘worshiping other than Allah is not shirk’, when ‘I never wrote anywhere that one can worship anyone other than Allah’.

I have learnt Islam form scholars of repute, But thanks I don’t want to learn the sources that you have been exposed to.
Please show me where have I accused you of what you claim?

@Sa1eem

I think you have big problems understanding and knowing Islam, but that maybe because it seems we have two different beliefs (Aqeedah).

Your perception is correct I do have a problem understanding but it is not Islam but I have a big problem with Brelviyah school of thought.

Yes I agree with that we have differences in Aqeedah

I follow Fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah (rahimullah)I follow Aqeedah Tahawiyyah and Aqeedah maturidiyyah which most of Hanafis follow. Read about Aqeedah in the following link:

Aqeedah Tahawiyyah Text | TAWHEED

@Sa1eem

For you ‘calling’ is ‘worshipping’, and you believe that ‘calling someone other than Allah is Shirk’ … even when caller has neither intention nor belief that one the person is calling is deity (god = illah).

No, It is not me, but the Blessed Messenger of Allah Almighty (peace and blessings be upon him) said so:

The Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said “Duaa(calling) is worship” (Sunnan Abi Dawud, hadith 1474 and Musnad Imam Ahmad)

Yes I and Muslims (apart from your type) believe that calling upon someone other than Allah Almighty which is in His Domain is shirk if done intentionally, if unintentionally or by lack of knowledge than minor shirk.

Can you ask anyone directly other than Allah Almighty to forgive my sins? I deliberately worded my sins in case you come back and accuse me of calling you sinful

Intentions are matter of the heart – nobody can see the intentions in the heart.

if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck looks like a duck it must be a duck – then we judge it to be a duck!

You got a cheek complaining – All your posts are very offensive – always addressing others as followers of shaitaan – It is a lie – did I have a moan about it? No, because coming from you it makes no difference at all.

@Sa1eem

Your second belief is that, when a person leaves this world (Nafs dies), Ruh of that person dies too, hence that person cannot hear, cannot see, cannot feel, cannot reply, cannot do anything, cannot help, nor can pray for anyone … hence your ‘call someone other than Allah being Shirk’ becomes ‘call someone other than Allah who has died is Shrik’.

Yet again you are wrong. You are just presuming things and letting your imagination run wild.

Why are you lumping false beliefs on me. My sincere advice to you is to change your tutor – he is feeding you all the wrong information.

The angel of death takes the Ruh out of the body –the body dies and Ruh is taken to alam al barzakh and experiences the ‘life’ to come. That station is in Ghayb – leave it as it is so no speculations.

@Sa1eem

As for Muslims, we believe that those who pass away, they move (inteqal) from this world to world behind curtain (Alam-e-Barzakh), and that they are as much alive as one living in this world, with exception that their test in this world ends. Thus, those who passed away, they can hear, see, feel, reply, give dua, and can help or do things whatever Allah permits them.

By ‘us Muslims’ you mean Brelvis – or are excluding likes of me out?

Alhamdulilah! My beliefs same like that of Muslims - Alhamdulilah! Must be shocking for you! Let you tutor know that I too believe in Alam al Barzakh!!!

If the people in the Alam al Barzakh can hear us and reply us, we don’t scholars now. We can get fatwas from the eminent scholars who have passed into Alam Al Barzakh

Why doesn’t one of your eminent scholars get in touch with the Blessed Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and sort out all the differences among the Fuqaha?

There is no connection between the two ‘worlds’ only what Allah Almighty permits through dreams.

@Sa1eem

For us Muslims, calling someone for help or whatever, be that person alive with us or has passed away is not worshiping that person neither it is Shrik. Rather, it is recognition that there is life after death and a person that passed away can do anything with permission of Allah (if that person has permission of Allah).

By ‘us Muslims’ you mean Brelvis – or are excluding likes of me out?

@Sa1eem

For us Muslims, shirk and worship depends on our beliefs and intentions … and that means, until we do not call someone (be that someone alive or passed away) with belief that the person is Deity (has his own power as god to fulfil anything) then that is not worship nor shirk..

By ‘us Muslims’ you mean Brelvis – or are excluding likes of me out?

@Sa1eem

Now, if your beliefs became same as what we Muslims believe … that death is just ‘going behind curtain’ … or behind ‘pardah’ … where a person moves from ‘world of test’ to ‘world behind curtain’, then it would be easy for you to understand what I am saying.

By ‘we Muslims’ you mean Brelvis – or are excluding likes of me out?

Did you find any difference in my beliefs and yours?

@Sa1eem

Please do not think that from above statement I mean you are not Muslim. What I am saying is that, beliefs of sect you belong to is different then we Muslims (or sect we and majority of other Muslims belong to). I am putting down the beliefs of us Muslims, so that you can see the difference and also find answers to the questions you raised. I can further explain with references, but I am not sure you would accept our beliefs (Aqeedah), hence me writing further would be beating the bush, so my rest of the post is for you (to know our beliefs) as well as for anyone who may have confusion regarding the matter we believe, that I wrote earlier..

Alhamdulilah! I really appreciate that you have included me in the camp of Muslims, very grudgingly though – I hope your tutor doesn’t tick you off.

Yes I agree with you I will never believe what Brelvis believe. There is no textual evidence that some of Brelvis rituals ever performed by the Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) I do have Brelvi relatives and get on very well with them but never participate with their rituals which all Brelvis perform as they are not from the Sunnah of the Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) and neither from the Blessed Quran.

@Sa1eem

Please read carefully (actually, I answered similar query few years back, and fortunately I found some of those material, so posting them here):
As Muslim, it is our belief (Aqeedah) that we cannot call anyone other than Allah for help 'with belief’ that the person could give ‘help’ on their own account independent of Allah. All source of help a person receives originates from Allah, and whoever one calls are intermediary (Zariya), who can do whatever only with permission of Allah. This is true for us, be the person we call is alive or passed away (no difference between the two).

Do you believe Allah Almighty is nearer to you than the person you are calling for help?

Do you believe Allah Almighty is hears you better than the person you are calling for help?

Do you believe Allah Almighty can intervene even before the person intervened for you?

Do you believe Allah Almighty can’t have direct connection you?

Do you believe Allah Almighty can respond to your call without the intervention of the intermediary?

@Sa1eem

In Islam, Allah has told Muslims to give to other Muslims who are in need, and there is nowhere Allah has said that those who are in need should not ask others for help or ask others for whatever they need…

What’s this got to with the topic on hand? In this world Muslims must help and cooperate with each other particularly, right?

But can you ask other Muslim to forgive your sins if you have any? Of course you won’t as you know only Allah Almighty can do that. It is in His Domain.

Or can other Muslim ask you to forgive his sins (not committed against you)?

@Sa1eem

Actually, for a Muslim to help needy if they can, give to needy if they have anything, plus give dua to all in abundance is part of Islam … and similarly for needy Muslims to ask others if they need anything and take from them if given is part of Islam, as these are the ways of Allah and whoever do not believe on this asking/giving is not Muslim (Zakat is fard, and process of Zakat itself is process of giving by those who have and taking by those who need). ..

Agree with you 100%

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Ya Ali madad

Thus, asking others for help when in need, and asking others for dua is character of Muslims. Only fraun, Namrood, Iblis, follower of Iblis, people with similar character as Iblis, people who are under the influence of Iblis, people who are so proud of themselves that to ask others hurt their ego, or people who are so miser that giving to needy hurt them, would disagree with that (disagreeing with this process is disagreeing with Zakat and many things Islam promotes)..

I hope you are not counting me among these horrible people!

Do these ‘horrible’ turn to Allah Almighty for help?

Anyhow, requirement of asking is that, whenever asking,** belief** of one should be that in the end, it is Allah who provides and those who are asked can be only intermediaries (Zariya).

I agree with you; but

Do you believe Allah Almighty can’t have direct connection you?

Do you believe Allah Almighty can respond to your call without the intervention of the intermediary?

Do you believe Allah Almighty will deal with you stingily without the intervention of the intermediary?

Similarly, requirement of giving (in whatever form and shape) is that the giver should believe that whatever they have is gift from Allah and it is their duty to help others with what they have, as guardian of what Allah has given them.

Agree with you 100%

This belief is true regardless of the person asking someone a glass of water, wages for work, medical treatment, or dua ... that is, those who give glass of water, wage for work, medical treatment, or dua, they are only intermediaries (Zariyas) and in reality the provider is Allah.

Agree with you 100%

As for death, our Aqeedah is that, there is no such thing in Islam that a person dies spiritually even though that person may have died physically. Thus, asking from a person who died physically is same as asking a person who is living physically, because in the end, both are helpless in helping others on their own account and could only become go-in-between (Zariya) if Allah wants to, as help and provisions are always from Allah.

“When My servants ask you about Me [tell them], ‘Verily I am close [to them]; I listen to the prayer of everyone who calls on Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me in order that the may be guided aright.’” (2:186)

Do you think Allah Almighty needs a go-in-between to help whosoever calls upon Him? Do you think Allah Almighty is helpless without a go-in-between?

Further, to provide help or provisions through someone, regardless of them being physically Alive or not, is no big deal for Allah, as when/if Allah wants to, a person becomes helpful, regardless of that person is physically alive or not (and anyone who do not believe that Allah could do that even if Allah wants to, than that person cannot be a Muslim).

Do you think Allah Almighty needs a go-in-between to help whosoever calls upon Him? Do you think Allah Almighty is helpless without a go-in-between?

Allah has made material world a place where each of his creation depends on other of Allah’s creations for everything. We can see that when baby is born (humans or animals), as from the time of birth that baby depends on another of Allah’s creation (usually Mother for food, comfort and protection). That obviously does not mean the one providing is God of one provided, or taking help from other is accepting other as God, but it only means that one accepts the way Allah has created this material world, and whoever does not accept this as way of Allah and revolts and misguide others against this way of Allah, are friend of Shaitan.

Agreed 100% Alhamdililah I am not a friend of Shaitan the cursed.

Even when it comes to guidance of human beings, Allah never sent obvious guidance directly to individuals rather Allah has sent guidance through his selected guides as intermediaries (Prophets and other humans close to Allah or Wali-Allah), and this is the way of Allah in this material world.

Agreed 100% and Allah Almighty is the source of Guidance and it is only Him who chooses those who will be guided.

This is especially true for humans as we are going through test of ‘Iman on unseen’, so belief on Allah and his providing provisions has to be unseen. Shaitan has always misguided humans making them revolt against Prophets and Wali-Allahs (friends of Allah) by making his followers demeaning and abusing people close to Allah, as Iblis himself tried to demean and abuse Allah by not respecting Allah’s raising of Adam (AS) status making Adam (AS) worthy of Sajdah-e-tazeem. Shaitan continuously prompt humans that they are so close to Allah that they should expect guidance and hearing from Allah directly ... though it does not mean that it is not possible for Allah, but that is not way Allah adopted for this material world where Allah is testing his creations. These misguided humans full of ego do not even realise that all guidance ever came to them is through intermediaries (Prophets, parents, guardians, Saints, elders, scholars, etc) and thus without realisation, fall for Shaitan’s ploy.

Agree with you 100% but what’s this got to do with the topic on hand?

For those, who believe that they are so close to Allah that they should ask and expect everything from Allah directly and that there should be no intermediaries in between, then they should ask Allah to send them Quran as guidance directly too, rejecting anything Allah sent to them indirectly through intermediaries. Reason is simple.

Now you are trying to be funny.

Quran and all components of Islam that Allah sent to Prophet (SAW) is through Jabrael (AS) as intermediary between him and Prophet (SAW) who passed Quran and components of Islam to people of his time. Muslims of today got Quran and all components of Islam through generations of Muslims between them and prophet (SAW). So neither Muslims nor Prophet (SAW) got Quran and components of Islam directly from Allah … though that does not mean Allah could not have done that … and fact is that Prophet (SAW) always had direct contact with Allah, though for worldly purpose, this is how things happened … Jabrael (AS) was shown as intermediary).

Agree with you 100% but what’s this got to do with the topic on hand?

Anyhow, if any Muslim would do that (reject Quran and expect direct message from Allah for his guidance), than they would find that Allah would never send them Quran or any message directly, nor Allah would send Angel telling them anything about guidance, but by just desiring such, these misguided Muslims would only end up as Kafir with end in Jahannum.

Agree with you 100% but what’s this got to do with the topic on hand?

Asking Allah directly: It is true that Allah has told Muslims to ask him only (but have never used the word ‘directly’). Actually, asking Allah for help is to do with 'in belief sense', not 'in literal sense' ....

** He is the Living (One): There is no god but He: Call upon Him, giving Him sincere devotion. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds! 40:65

Transliteration: Huwa alhayyu la ilaha illa huwa faodAAoohu mukhliseena lahu alddeena alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameena

“When My servants ask you about Me [tell them], ‘Verily I am close [to them]; I listen to the prayer of everyone who calls on Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me in order that they may be guided aright.’” (2:186)

What do you understand the blessed versed quoted above?

Did He say go look for intermediaries? Or did He ask people to call upon Him directly?

When you read the Duas from the Quran, and there are plenty of them, directly addressing Allah Almighty – starting with “Allah Huma” are you not addressing Allah Almighty directly?

Then it is Allah Almighty’s choice to find the means to meet the needs of the one who called upon Him?

as I wrote earlier, that when asking anyone, belief should be that actual source who provides is Allah and whoever one is asking is just intermediary whom Allah has or may have bestowed ability to provide. If that asking (to ask Allah) was in ‘literally sense and directly’ than a believer could not even ask anything from anyone, including a glass of water from his wife/children, wages from his employer, medical treatment from his doctor, dua from any person, etc.

The provider is Allah Almighty rest are just the means.

Well, if asking was in literal sense than Prophets (AS) could not have even asked kuffars to accept Islam, rather Prophet (AS) would have asked Allah to make Kuffars accept Islam. Actual Islamic belief is that in the end it is Allah who gives guidance, but still Prophet (AS) gives guidance and asks Kuffars to receive guidance from him.

?????

One could find verses in Quran that says ‘those who help Prophet (SAW) ....’ or that ‘those who help Allah’… so, one should think. In this material world Allah do not help directly but helps through intermediaries, else one would be denying not only common sense, historical facts, but would be making all Prophets Mushrik (those who asked help from people other than Allah), would be making Allah Mushrik (as Allah asked people in Quran to help Prophet and Allah too), and would be denying many ayahs of Quran, including following ayahs, so read carefully the ayahs and think: For instance: Ayah (7:157) ... where Allah asking human to help Prophet (SAW) ... So, if 'direct help only from Allah' is true than where is that direct help gone, instead here it is Allah telling Muslims to help Prophets (AS), how come?

What’s this got to with the topic on hand?

Surah 7, ayah 157: Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

Ayah (3:124) … Allah is telling Muslims that he did not helped directly, but his help came through 3000 angels. So, if anyone thinks that Allah help directly, then why Angels?

Surah 3, ayah 124: Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down?

Ayah (4:75): Allah is telling people that why not help those Men, women and children who cry: ‘Raise for us from thee one who protect and help’ (or asking Allah to raise people who protect and help them). Why Allah is saying that ‘people asking to raise from thee (Allah) one who protects and help, why not ask Allah to protect and help directly?’

Surah 4, ayah 75: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Ayah (8:72): Allah telling Muslims that it is their duty to help other Muslims? How come? If Allah helps directly than shouldn’t it be that Allah should help directly and not ask people to help?

Surah 8, ayah 72: Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.

Ayah (22:40) Allah mentions that he repel some men by means of others (made one group of men intermediaries to repel other group and do not repel them directly) … and talk about people helping cause of Allah, shows that Allah uses intermediaries. Is Allah using means to provide or help, doing shirk too?

Just think, if Allah helps directly and there are no intermediaries then how come Allah used one men against other as well as Allah is talking about people helping Allah’s cause?

Actually, Allah says in ayah below that if he has not used one group of men to repel other group of men than places where Allah is worshipped would have got pulled down (as even then Allah would not have intervened directly) ... shows that in this world Allah do not interfere directly but use intermediaries to do whatever he wants.

What’s this got to with the topic on hand?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Ya Ali madad

I know that misguided (or people with wahabi believe) would say that these ayahs are valid when Prophet (SAW) was alive, but we Muslims believe that these ayahs are valid at all time until judgment day … and that asking forgiveness making Prophet (SAW) as intermediary is also valid until judgment day, and that death of a person does not change anything … because person is always there, only his nafs dies (detaching the person from material world of test).

Who is denying waseela of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)here?

Just as much you are allergic to ‘wahabis’ trust me people are allergic to Bralvis

As far as acts of earlier Muslims, there are numerous hadiths where people asked from Prophet (SAW) as intermediaries for sorting out worldly problems, even after the death of Prophet (SAW). Do some search and you would find them.

Who is denying waseela of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)here?

Bralevis bring every pir fakir you name it as waseela apart from the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

One should know that only Kafirs and Mushriks believe that God literally comes down on earth and help them directly ... like Kali Mai, Vishnu, Sunny, etc in Hindu beliefs getting born or materialising on earth (as autaar) to help them directly fighting evils, injustices or poverty. Greeks had many Gods and Goddesses like ‘Hercules’ coming down on earth to fight evil and help them directly. In case of Christians it is Isa (AS) who was born on earth to help them directly by washing their sins.

What’s this got to with the topic on hand?

Actually, many Kuffars thinks that God or Gods help them directly. It is this thinking that corrupted most religion Allah sent. Whenever believers started thinking that ‘Allah helps them directly’, with time they start considering whoever help them is God … and thus they become Kafir with numerous gods. Now it seems new breed are born amongst Muslims like Wahabis and Kharjees who believe the same that Allah literally help them directly and not through intermediaries.

Is it beyond Allah Almighty to help directly or is Allah Almighty dependent on the intermediaries and without them He can do nothing?

Enough said on this thread - do not intend go around in circles. I am going abroad for a week. This thread no more

[khoji]

Re: Ya Ali madad

Mind explaining the colored quote?

What is there to explain? These are Allah's attributes. "al Sami", "al Baseer", "al Ali".

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Let me digress a bit and give a piece of my mind on this subject:

In my opinion, the hatred of Ahle Bait is to such a level in Ibn Wahhab's religion that many of his followers do not even acknowledge that ALI is one of the attributes of Allah.

Aayatul Kursi ends with the words 'wa huwal ALIul AZEEM". Yet we now hear "Sadaq Allahul AZEEM" instead of the full "Sadaq Allahul ALIul AZEEM".

---

This name ALI is so much vilified in that religion that now it is difficult to find people with the name ALI. One of my friend's name is Furqan Ali. He says that many people take him as Shia only because his last name is Ali! This shows to what lows Islam has been brought by the hatred of Ahle Bait.

Pashtun people a lot of whom have a tradition of following teachings inspired by ibn Wahhab, have altogether given up naming their children ALI. I know a Pathan who thinks he is unfortunate that he is named ALI. tsk tsk tsk.

[teggy]

Re: Ya Ali madad

What is there to explain? These are Allah's attributes. "al Sami", "al Baseer", "al Ali".

---

Let me digress a bit and give a piece of my mind on this subject:

In my opinion, the hatred of Ahle Bait is to so such a level in Ibn Wahhab's religion that many of his followers do not even acknowledge that ALI is one of the attributes of Allah.

Aayatul Kursi ends with the words 'wa huwal ALIul AZEEM". Yet we now hear "Sadaq Allahul AZEEM" instead of the full "Sadaq Allahul ALIul AZEEM".

---

This name ALI is so much vilified in that religion that now it is difficult to find people with the name ALI. One of my friend's name is Furqan Ali. He says that many people take him as Shia only because his last name is Ali! This shows to what lows Islam has been brought by the hatred of Ahle Bait.

Pashtun people a lot of whom have a tradition of following teachings inspired by ibn Wahhab, have altogether given up naming their children ALI. I know a Pathan who thinks he is unfortunate that he is named ALI. tsk tsk tsk.

It goes both ways, brother. For instance, in an effort to get your point across you found it quite easy to generalize a whole swath of people based on the interaction of a few people that you may know personally.

Though this doesn't relate at all to the topic at hand, but some ignorant folks on the other end of the spectrum might raise the argument that they've never met a person named Umar or Abu Bakr from the Shia brethren. I know, that probably isn't valid, but you get the point I'm raising?!

Islam came to extinguish Jahaliyya, but it seems that some who claim to follow it have yet to give up some of the Jahalat because they identify with one or another clique. May Allah guide us, and unite our hearts on what is common, and give us all the taufeek to leave minute matters which only cause a divide.

PS: I believe Ali is a beautiful name.