I have a strong hunch that those of you who profess to be anti-war now will continue to rage against what happens in post-war Iraq no matter how good things become for the Iraqi people. Therefore, I’d sort of like to know before the events occur whether you would admit that you were wrong about Iraq under a given set of circumstances. The scenario I pose is as follows:
The war is quickly over resulting in the removal of Saddam from power
It is learned and proved that Saddam had stockpiles of bio and chemical agents ready for use (he might even have used them in the war) and had an active WMD program including use of moving laboratories
There are relatively few civilian casualties (except for those maybe inflicted by Saddam himself)
Sanctions terminate quickly
Malnutrition among the Iraqi children drops precipitously
The Iraqi people welcome the American and UK troops as liberators with flowers in the streets
Iraq’s natural resources are developed and used for the benefit of the Iraqi people
Within a couple of years, a new representative government emerges in Iraq
If all this were to occur, would you acknowledge that you were wrong about what to do with Iraq?
My prayers are that the majority of the world is proven wrong ... But what if its not the case? Would US admit its wrong doing? Is there a history?
Azkar
ps: again, I am not against the war to disarm .. I am against the lies that have been put forward to rally support .. and to demonstrate the support .. hey, its US's survival at stake .. go for it .. but dont say US has the world on its side .. cuz its NOT ...
and the only good hope US has is that Iraq uses chem/bio weapons ... and they wil say .. Aha!! Told you!! ...
lies lies lies ...US has dropped itself to the levels of that corrupt regime in Baghdad ...
I dont believe US will NOT plant evidence if the same is not found to convict the IRAQ ... but then again ... US knows IRAQ HAS wmds ... cuz the sold them!!! and that asshole is not giving them up ... Why did the US not come clean and admit they screwed up, sold him wmds and now they are going to bring them[weapons] back home or destroy them ... why go through the twisted lies?? Thats my only problem ... Come clean and the world will be on your side!!
Azkar:
My question does not involve an analysis of the reasons for going to war at all. Many times people do the "right" thing for the "wrong" reasons. My inquiry solely addresses the outcome. If that is the outcome, would you say the US did the right thing?
Somehow or other though, I don't share your belief that the US could do anything that would put the whole world on its side on any issue. You are right that the US could probably dig up 100,000 liters of anthrax and small pox burried by Saddam near the Euphjrates river and a great many people would accuse the US of planting it there. When it comes to judging the US, truth takes a back seat to a good story.
what you are asking is ... if the end results are good, would I say, US did the right thing [lied and went on to war] ... Sure .. I would agree .. as I still agree with its stance ... but I was taught 'Lying is bad' ... Why does it only apply to individuals and not to the governments .. But I guess, then some will say a lie that results in good for others is no lie ...
I just hope that these lies bring out good results .. My prayers are for those who will shower in the rains of cluster bombs[people] and under the threat of chem/bio weapons [troops]... No one of these are at fault ... its their ignorant, arrogant and corrupt leaders who thrust them into the war ...
among the lies are:
OBL and Iraq are connected
US has world support
HE (Iraq) has 'developed' wmds .. beep .. HE was GIVEN ...
He (Iraq) is a direct threat to US
He(Iraq) will give wmds to terrorists ... beep ... wrong ...
We (US) are going to liberate the Iraqi people .. beep .. beep ...
He (Iraq) has nukes ... beep ... its a choco bar .. its a gad damn nuke .. people no when u got one!! again .. plz dont lie and fabricate evidence ...
Look into the mind of a dictator and you will see my reasoning .. he wants to rule .. he wants power .. and he knows he cannot beat the US .. it will be suicide .. that asshole will keep abusing his people and keep killing by the thousands ... but US bombs will kill millions! ..
Excellent questions Myvoice. In my opinion, majority will admit that they were wrong, but you will have a few diehard terrorist sympathizers for who USA can never do right. You would surely have come across a few who still admire the Taliban.
My only hope is that the sweep doesn’t end after Iraq. This is an excellent God given (Subhan Allah) opportunity to clean the mess in the Mideast. Hopefully, somewhere along the way, there's a Palestinian State, real democracy in Iran, end of family rule in the Shiekdoms, along with prelusion of religious tolerance of the Western kind. Amen. May Allah honor our beloved President George Walker Bush with victory and protect the brave men and women in uniform who are not afraid to lay down their lives, so this world will be better place for all to live. Jazak Allah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Excellent questions Myvoice. In my opinion, majority will admit that they were wrong, but you will have a few diehard terrorist sympathizers for who USA can never do right. You would surely have come across a few who still admire the Taliban.
My only hope is that the sweep doesn’t end after Iraq. This is an excellent God given (Subhan Allah) opportunity to clean the mess in the Mideast. Hopefully, somewhere along the way, there's a Palestinian State, real democracy in Iran, end of family rule in the Shiekdoms, along with prelusion of religious tolerance of the Western kind. Amen. May Allah honor our beloved President George Walker Bush with victory and protect the brave men and women in uniform who are not afraid to lay down their lives, so this world will be better place for all to live. Jazak Allah.
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Replying to the original post:
I would not admit I am wrong because I have always been hoping that all those 'ifs' would become reality (except for #2). But I am with AC on it - I hope that things go well for all involved, but I will not forget the devious tactics that brought us to this conclusion. No matter how right the US will be after the fact they were wrong before it.
A question for the other side: What if one or more of those 'ifs' turn out negative?
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*Originally posted by underthedome: *
The mistake the U.S. made is taking this to the UN in the first place.
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UN is for UNITED nations .. going in was no mistake, kid. Acting alone is no act of UNITED .. but then again, many say they dont care what happens in the world .. somehow they think they are immune.. they believe US can exist without the rest of the world .. sooo true ... right?
UN is for UNITED nations .. going in was no mistake, kid. Acting alone is no act of UNITED .. but then again, many say they dont care what happens in the world .. somehow they think they are immune.. they believe US can exist without the rest of the world .. sooo true ... right?
[/QUOTE]
The U.S. and its allies have gone it alone before when the UN has failed to act with great success. I was all for bringing this to the UN thinking it would take responsibility, I was wrong. Just another question mark to an organization that allows Syria on it's Security Council and Libya on it's Commission for Human Rights. And to the contrary the U.S. very much needs and cares about the world hence it's march towards disarming Iraq. Pull up the amount of Aid the U.S. gives and tell me they don't care what happens to the world.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
When it comes to judging the US, truth takes a back seat to a good story.
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maybe it's because of the numerous instances of forged evidence and distorted facts, half truths and outright lies used by the US governments over a period of time to fool their own public and the world..
Azkar:
First, I give all due respect to your opinions as I am sure you do for mine. To me, the US administration has made a couple of factual assertions that are susceptible of proof: (1) Saddam has WMD and (2) Saddam has an ongoing WMD development program. If no WMD are found and we find no WMD development program, I will conclude the administration lied. If both of those things prove true, that is truth enough for me.
Much of what you report as lies constitute what I view as opinions. Opinions may be right or wrong but opinions are not lies.
“He (Iraq) is a direct threat to US:” I have heard the argument that Saddam can’t even shoot down a plane in the no fly zone so how can he be a threat to the US. In response, I need to ask how many US warplanes did Al Qaeda shoot down? Iraq undeniably has more financial and technological resources than Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization has or had. Iraq is definitely not a direct threat to the US within the context of a conventional war. Saddam has always had grandiose thoughts regarding his own legacy. He has never limited his designs on being remembered as a guy who wanted to only rape, pillage, torture and kill his own people. The single most significant way that Saddam can inflate himself in history and be worshipped by many is to participate in or assist the inflicting of massive harm on America and/or Israel. Thus, what you see so clearly as a lie, I see as an obvious truth. That he may not presently have the capacity to deliver the destruction he would like does not make the proposition a lie.
“He(Iraq) will give wmds to terrorists:” IMO, if that is the only delivery mechanism that would enable him to deliver WMD against either the US or Israel, he would use it. However, I think that this is much more a matter of opinion than a matter of fact.
As to the development of WMD, Saddam, to my understanding, was not given WMD. To be sure, certain precursors necessary for the development of WMD were supplied to Iraq. Saddam himself has admitted (and the first UN inspectors discovered) that Saddam had a pretty substantial bio, chemical and nuclear development program going. It’s not the “stash” he was given that threatens the world. It’s what he did with the stash and how he has amplified it that is the problem.
I am also a skeptical about the motives of the US. But either way, I know good can come up with this war, as it will remove Saddam and end sanctions, and get Iraqis back into the community of nations.
Yes, their will be civilian casualties like in any war, but even right now people in Iraq are dieing due to sanctions and Saddam's hording of wealth. War will be better for the long-term benefit of Iraqis.
Re: Would you admit you were wrong about Iraq if ...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
I have a strong hunch that those of you who profess to be anti-war now will continue to rage against what happens in post-war Iraq no matter how good things become for the Iraqi people. Therefore, I’d sort of like to know before the events occur whether you would admit that you were wrong about Iraq under a given set of circumstances. The scenario I pose is as follows:
[QUOTE]
The war is quickly over resulting in the removal of Saddam from power
[/QUOTE]
I hope and pray that war is over quickly without killing the innocent civilians by the use of "shock and awe".
[QUOTE]
It is learned and proved that Saddam had stockpiles of bio and chemical agents ready for use (he might even have used them in the war) and had an active WMD program including use of moving laboratories
[/QUOTE]
So, he has them.... USA has many chemical and biological weapons. Every country in the world does what it sees fit for its survival. Iraq needed those weapons and moving labs to save the hard work of so many of its scientists and workers.
[QUOTE]
There are relatively few civilian casualties (except for those maybe inflicted by Saddam himself)
[/QUOTE]
I will believe it when I see it.
4.
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Sanctions terminate quickly
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Sanctions should have been terminated long time ago... say 1996.
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Malnutrition among the Iraqi children drops precipitously
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Do you not believe that Iraqi children have suffered because of the sanctions?
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The Iraqi people welcome the American and UK troops as liberators with flowers in the streets
[/QUOTE]
This will happen... I don’t know about the flowers but there will be some who will welcome them.
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Iraq’s natural resources are developed and used for the benefit of the Iraqi people.
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Yes, people who toe the US line and do as they are ordered. In addition, what little money is left (after Halliburton, Flour, Bechtel) will be divided among the people who will act as told by these companies.
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Within a couple of years, a new representative government emerges in Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
Now, this I have to admit is a pipe dream. You have spoken like a person who lives in the fantasy world. Did you not mention that you were an avid reader of the mystery and conspiracy novels?
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If all this were to occur, would you acknowledge that you were wrong about what to do with Iraq?
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Ok if everything you mentioned happens as you say. I will admit I was wrong.