Would you admit you were wrong about Iraq if ...

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Azkar Choudhry: *
I hope you are right and the govt is sincere with us ... The US govt has never lied or cheated its citizens ...
[/QUOTE]

That's why we have governments: i.e. to have a single central body to lie to and cheat its citizens. Can you imagine the mess we'd have if every citizen was allowed to lie to and cheat every other citizen. Total Anarchy!!! But that is another topic.

In answer to the questions regarding my view if one or more of the "what ifs" did not occur.

If #2 above did NOT occur ("2. It is learned and proved that Saddam had stockpiles of bio and chemical agents ready for use (he might even have used them in the war) and had an active WMD program including use of moving laboratories"), the justness and rightness of the cause will, in my eyes, be dependent upon how the war is ultimately viewed by the Iraqi people. And I think their view will largely be dependent upon an end to sanctions, an end to malnutrition, development of oil reserves for their benefit rather than looting them, and the establishment of a representative government. Also, I think their views will be impacted by the number of civilian casualties caused by US/UK forces. I think they will be understanding and supportive of the action even if a larger number of civilians die IF the deaths are the result of Saddam unleashing chemical and biological agents on his own people.

If #2 above DOES occur (especially if Saddam uses the chemical or biological agents against troops, his own people, and/or others), IMO, that fact, in and of itself, will demonstrate that the US and UK were right to use military force. Such weapons must be removed from such people at almost any cost. There are some worst case scenatios that I can envision which would convince me that the war was a terrible mistake. But, in those scenarios, I probably wouldn't be around to admit that, you wouldn't be around to hear the admission and/or Gupshup wouldn't be around for me to post it on. Regardless of how we all feel about the war itself, we should all join in prayer that such worst case scenarios do not occur.

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The only people that are wrong are the warmongers who feel that they have the right to declare war on any nation without any legal justification.

[thumb=B]mirror1.JPG[/thumb]
Front Page from Britains Biggest Selling Tabloid (17 Mar)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
The only people that are wrong are the warmongers who feel that they have the right to declare war on any nation without any legal justification.
[/QUOTE]

Why don't you stick to the topic and answer the question posed. Or should I interpret your response as renouncing any and all possibility that you will admit you are wrong regardless of any set of circumstances that deliver great good to the people of Iraq and the people of the world?

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Bush's war against Iraq is illegal and your assumptions about what could happen after a war are wishful thinking.. FYI, UN experts have predicted that a war against Iraq could lead to up to 500,000 civilian casualties in the first few weeks and there would be huge destruction to the civilian infrastructure, which is very different to the scenarios which you have listed.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
Bush's war against Iraq is **illegal* and your assumptions about what could happen after a war are wishful thinking.. FYI, UN experts have predicted that a war against Iraq could lead to up to 500,000 civilian casualties in the first few weeks and there would be huge destruction to the civilian infrastructure, which is very different to the scenarios which you have listed.
[/QUOTE]

Again, I ask you to stick to the topic and answer the simple question posed. I did not ask for UN predictions of what will happen nor did I ask for your prediction about what will happen. I simply asked whether you would admit you were wrong on Iraq if certain things DID happen.

If you are so certain that this outcome will not, in fact, happen, you need not fear having your admission come back to haunt you in the future. However, if it does happen, I just want to get you on record now about whether such a rosy and wonderful outcome would be enough to have you admit that you were wrong.

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dil he, you have to remember that myvoice does not think that Unis relevant and here youo go posting what UN beleive. Sheesh, he only believes what his president tells him to believe. Any other side is wrong. Do not try to tell him this war can damage the infrastructure of Iraq and kill civilians. Ask him about how Halliburton, Bechtel, and Flour will profit from this war.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

I simply asked whether you would admit you were wrong on Iraq if certain things DID happen.

.
[/QUOTE]

-N-O- .... coz you or any country has no business in Iraq. simple... Iraq has trhe right to WMD as much as terrorist state of Israel.... or any terrorist for that matter.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
-N-O-
[/QUOTE]

No matter the "flowing rhetoric" and good pretenses:

The USA has NO cause to attack another country which is not even a threat to itself.

BTW: I hope the USA will declare war on Iraq and not just go in as a bandit raping the country and destroying it's citizen's possesions....

29

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
myvoice ji

Thats a lot of ifs you are pinning your hopes on. What if none of them turn out to be correct?
[/QUOTE]

Afghanistan is the best proof for that.

30

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
The only people that are wrong are the warmongers who feel that they have the right to declare war on any nation without any legal justification.

[thumb=B]mirror1.JPG[/thumb]
Front Page from Britains Biggest Selling Tabloid (17 Mar)
[/QUOTE]

DHP For a fair rebuttal, please do find the current issue of Soap OPera Digest at your local super market or on the web and do post the front page. It is a direct contradiction to the daily mirror. Luke and Laura forever!!!!!

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Re: Would you admit you were wrong about Iraq if …

It doesn’t really matter to me if War ends in a day or years decade. A sovereign nation is attacked because one government in whole world “fears” insecure because of its own weapons given to that nation.

It really goes against US, inspectors should have continued as the UN and “world” has said all along.

Civilian casualty, whether it be 1 or 100,000 is a casualty to me. Just like US considers its own citizens as very precious, I regard every human being on earth as “valuable”, “precious” if not a criminal (proved).

What do you mean by this? Of course sanctions will be removed, otherwise US soldiers will die of malnutrition. :hehe:

Is that one of the purposes of War? Is US going to bomb Iraq so its children are not malnutritioned anymore?

I’m sure there will be tens/hundreds of Kurds even Iraqis presenting flower, means what? I’m sure there are other nations who will be willing to do that if US takes over that country, do you want to “invade” those countries as well? Can you show me ur list please?

Right, and thats one of the purposes, isn’t it?

“couple of years”, sure that will happen.

So, is this the “To Do” list of American invasion of Iraq? Please tell me that US will leave all Iraqi oil wells alone and that there will be no more invasions on any other countries.

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Changez_like:

Perhaps you too could simply answer the question posed. It's really a pretty simple question to understand. If all those things happen, will you admit you were wrong about Iraq?

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MV

and if all of that dunn happen like you said will you admit that you were wrong. :D

you know what, the safest bet is to have no stance , this way you wont be right, but you wont be wrong either, whatever happens happens.

how da ya like dem apples :)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
MV

and if all of that dunn happen like you said will you admit that you were wrong. :D

you know what, the safest bet is to have no stance , this way you wont be right, but you wont be wrong either, whatever happens happens.

how da ya like dem apples :)
[/QUOTE]

Read my post of 9:43 pm on 3/17/03 on page 1 of this thread. I answered your question there. I don't have to place the "safe bet" by taking no stance as so many so-called anti-war people do.

There's an awful lot of people who have an awful lot to say against the US policy on Iraq who seem very uncomfortable getting off the fence on this question. If they answered yes to this question and these things happened, they'd look really foolish continuing with their US bashing posts on Iraq. And if they answer NO, reasonable people can pretty well tell where the anti-s are coming from.

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well see, you have reached a conclusion by reasoning and based on what you feel is important. jus like there are people who have analyzed the situation and taken an opposite stance. Now either people like yourself, or people like them can be proven wrong based on what happens.

The group I dont like comprises of those who are anti-war just for teh sake of being anti-war, and those who are pro-war just for teh sake of being pro-war.

P.s. the 9:43 was some other time zone i guess or did u mean GMT? I dod read all the posts just in case :)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
well see, you have reached a conclusion by reasoning and based on what you feel is important. jus like there are people who have analyzed the situation and taken an opposite stance. Now either people like yourself, or people like them can be proven wrong based on what happens.

The group I dont like comprises of those who are anti-war just for teh sake of being anti-war, and those who are pro-war just for teh sake of being pro-war.

P.s. the 9:43 was some other time zone i guess or did u mean GMT? I dod read all the posts just in case :)
[/QUOTE]

I think we are in near total agreement. I think there are many whose anti-war stance is merely a cloak for being anti-American. And these folks will continue to be anti-American and will oppose and complain about things the US does no matter what the outcome. I can respect the opinions of a true pacificist much more than I respect the anti-war stance of this group.

IMO, those so-called anti-war folks who are afraid to answer my question, or are evasive or answer no are those who would wish for the worst things to happen in the coming days to satisfy their anti-American bloodlust (the Iraqi people be damned). And, if the best possible outcome for the world and the Iraqi people does, in fact, happen, they will not let that stop them from carping on and on with their anti-American rhetoric.

I think it's worth the effort getting people on record now.

Based on the facts and information I have in front of me, I support the war. If I later find out that the facts and information I was given were false and if the outcome is not as I hope and pray, I would have no problem admitting I was wrong. And I've sketched out the scenario under which I would believe I was wrong in giving my support.

As to the time stamp, I just gave you the time that Gupshup shows when I look at the previous post. Maybe the time stamp is not the same for everyone.

37

MV

but what about those who are pro war just for the sake of being pro war or because good ol boys are gonan go kick teh **** outta dem aaay-raabs?

know what I mean mate?

there are anti-war ppl who are really anti war
there are psuedo anti-war folks who are really anti-US
and
there are pro-war ppl who are reaally pro-war
there are pseudo-pro war ppl who are really anti anybody else.

I cant stand the latter types in both categories, and sadly there are plenty of those around.

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^ :hehe:

Pro-War…what is is good for? Absolutely nothing!

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I’m not a fan of pro-war, it seems all they care about is the bling-bling and sneaker contracts. Amateur-war is where it’s at, they do it because they have passion for war.

40

MyVoice,

I will feel differently if God forbid Saddam uses poison gas he professes not to have, and that we have not found..on civilians and on our troops.

Yes I will definately feel differently if stockpiles of poison WMD's are found. I would have to admit that Bush was right about Saddam lying and hiding WMD's all these years.

But I think I will still regret that we allowed so little time for resolution 1441 to work, yes even though there has been countless others..with our troops there..missles were being destroyed without the troops firing off any bombs and without any casualties.

However, sinse this war is going to happen, I hope that the lives of the Iraqi's are greatly improved.

So Bush wins the war and gets elected for another 4 year term....

I get this creepy thought that my 11 year old nephew might one day be in Iraq. I mean look at North Korea..American troops have been there sinse the 1950's..and they now have nukes...yes the South has a much better life but the North is a threat.

What if something like this happens with Iraq? Though Ari Fletcher has said that Iraq's borders would remain the same.... and that the U.S. doesn't intend to occupy Iraq...

Supposedly the people in Basra, are Shihites and don't like Saddam, and don't get along with the Sunni's....and then you have the Kurds who also have a gripe with the Turks...

I don't think it will be that easy to create an American type democracy in Iraq nor if that is what the people there even want. There is the possibility that the Iraqi people will chose to have a fundamentalist religious government.

I don't think its unrealistic to think that there will be American Troops in Iraq for years...but maybe that will consist of U.N. peacekeeping mission......

Hope that the creepy thought is just a creepy thought. And life is good for the Iraqi's and that there is peace in the Middle East and that our young men come home alive and well and soon.

I suppose I am anti-premptive war. Not necessarily anti-war.

I just have not yet been convinced that we are doing the right thing.