Religion becomes so much more complicated when you go off what someone tells you, if you research what it is you’re having issues with most times I’ve found Islam to be much more liberal and open minded than what most people make it out to be. So do your own research, go to reliable sources and stop listening to people who seem adamant to throw a hundred made up hadith at you whilst they don’t bother to put any of them in practice (=mullahs. Please don’t stone me.)
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Yes that perfectly makes sense. I have heard women saying that Islam has been unfair to women and they usually give inheritence example that women are not considered equal to men. But they don't understand that men have more responsibilities than women and this justifies the inheritence law.
Same applies to other rules and if women are considered to be receiving unfair treatment by Islam, there is some leniency put on women and responsibility put on men which make things balanced.
Here are the things which are convenient for women:
- Its not Farz on women to pray in mosques in jamaat whereas it is farz for men.
- Household expenses and responsibilities of wife and children is not on women. Its on men.
- A wife can ask for compensation for breastfeeding the child from the husband. She can also demand separate living and maid.
- Women are eligible for haq meher from the husband whereas men are not.
- All the marriage expenses are onto the groom and not the bride (Islamically)
I am sure there are many others as well which I don't remember at the moment.
But the men are given such strong rights that women even if they demand these things dont really get them many a times. e.g. my maid's husband is a heavy drinker, gambles and does not give her money for her or the kids. Firstly, she wouldnt even have the right to divorce as easily as the man himself would be able to. She may be physically abused but what can she do about it etc.
One of our aunt's maid was being sold/rented by her husband to other men. What could she do about it? There should be such strong rights that place the equality to a level that men themselves would have been scared to take any such actions.
We the educated women still have some rights but those below the poverty level are living a life no one can imagine. Like its clearly mentioned that the man has EVERY POSSIBLE SORT of right over their wives, some more stronger rights placed would have suppressed the men from doing any wrong doings.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
I also would like to know what Islam says on the following topics:
Divorce
Women & Working outside home
If a woman is raped
Dowry
Inheritance
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
KKF has previously explained the logic behind the inheritence law in Islam. If man is entitled to have more share in inheritence, he has to spend the money on wife and children whereas whatever the women will get as inheritence, she will spend on herself only with no financial responsibilities. In this case, we can say that there is also a discrimination as why men are made to spend on his wife and children and women are not asked to spend on her husband and children. Rules and rights are very balanced in Islam. Its because men are made stronger physically and women's qawwam (provider) that they have started taking things in their hand and have forced women unnecessarily which make us think that the Islamic rules don't favour women and we are being ignored and left helpless by Islam, which is NOT the case. The examples which you mentioned show the complete disturbance of the Islam prescribed family system. Besides, the l aw and order system of our country should be strong enough to implement Islamic laws in order to protect the women from such men. We shouldn't blamce Islam for not catering to women's needs. We should blame our society and law and order institutions which are unable to implement what Islam has prescribed.Joint living is not encouraged by Islam. But majority of our newly married couples still start their new lives in joint family. If we change this, majority of the women's problems will solve (women as DILs, MILs and SILs). Similarly, if Divorce right is given to a girl at the time of nikah, she can easily come out of a bad marriage (as in the examples provided by you). If we start conducting marriages according to Islamic way, women and their families would be saved from giving dowry and spending lavish amounts on marriages (since nikah is required to be simple with just dates and valima expenses is on the groom). Thus, if we truly start following Islam, we can save ourselves from many problems. But our society norms stop us from completely following Islam.
Yeah it is so balanced that women in the Muslim world have the most freedom and enjoy their god given rights more than anyone in the world. When will the west learn from the Muslim world? I am so ashamed how oppressed we are in the west. *end of sarcasm*People will justify anything so they can be happy with their faith.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
People will justify anything so they can be happy with their faith.
People resort to justifying because you just can't seem to fathom that muslim women could actually be pretty happy with their faith but not necessarily with the culture they live in. For the West, the oppression of Afghani women = Islam :) They seem to have forgotten that their own culture was pretty darn discriminatory towards women not too long ago. Let me reiterate the word culture, not religion.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^no, actually turns out muslim women can happily take abuse and all that good stuff in the name of religion. You can only blame culture so much. What's the common denominator among the following countries :Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arab? Nope it's not culture it's Islam. At least the west has learned from its past and does everything in its power to eliminate discrimination against women and minorities. You have to accept some thingsAre wrong before you make any amendments. Unfortunately, for the Muslim women it's not going to happen because even they don't want to accept they are getting the short end of the stick.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^no, actually turns out muslim women can happily take abuse and all that good stuff in the name of religion. You can only blame culture so much. What's the common denominator among the following countries :Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arab? Nope it's not culture it's Islam. At least the west has learned from its past and does everything in its power to eliminate discrimination against women and minorities. You have to accept some thingsAre wrong before you make any amendments. Unfortunately, for the Muslim women it's not going to happen because even they don't want to accept they are getting the short end of the stick.
So why am I not going through any abuse in life, my parents are pretty strict muslims?
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^so why can't we see these acts of selflessness in any one the muslim countries?
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^no, actually turns out muslim women can happily take abuse and all that good stuff in the name of religion. You can only blame culture so much. What's the common denominator among the following countries :Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arab? Nope it's not culture it's Islam. At least the west has learned from its past and does everything in its power to eliminate discrimination against women and minorities. You have to accept some thingsAre wrong before you make any amendments. Unfortunately, for the Muslim women it's not going to happen because even they don't want to accept they are getting the short end of the stick.
Peace Theorist
I think you'll find that the same denominator exists for UK, US, China, Brazil, etc
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^so why can't we see these acts of selflessness in any one the muslim countries?
-Do NOT Judge Islam from Muslims...Judge Muslims from Islam
-Muslims HAVE to fit in Islam and NOT Islam fit in Muslims
-muslims must come into deen FULLY, not partially!
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^so why can't we see these acts of selflessness in any one the muslim countries?
Peace Theorist
Look to individuals not to whole countries ... you might find what you seek.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
So why am I not going through any abuse in life, my parents are pretty strict muslims?
Because you don't think it is abuse. Also you don't live in a place like Afghanistan so you don't count.You can sugar coat Islam all you want living abroad. That's not the true picture and the world knows It but you want to live in denial which is fine.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
^no, actually turns out muslim women can happily take abuse and all that good stuff in the name of religion. You can only blame culture so much. What's the common denominator among the following countries :Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arab? Nope it's not culture it's Islam. At least the west has learned from its past and does everything in its power to eliminate discrimination against women and minorities. You have to accept some thingsAre wrong before you make any amendments. Unfortunately, for the Muslim women it's not going to happen because even they don't want to accept they are getting the short end of the stick.
Why are you people so impressed with western culture where woman have so much rights that man can use them and at the end they even don't know that how many of their girl friends have their children. Seriously i don't want this freedom and rights. AS a Muslims we have everything what we need.
If you say that relationships before marriages is just cultural thing not a religion thing then abuse is not a Islamic thing. In fact Islam has strict punishments for people who do these things. Islam has not given any right to husband to beat his wife. These type of husbands are answerable in front of Allah.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Because you don't think it is abuse. Also you don't live in a place like Afghanistan so you don't count.You can sugar coat Islam all you want living abroad. That's not the true picture and the world knows It but you want to live in denial which is fine.
One of my friend told me that her colleague visited Afghanistan few months back and he was surprised when he saw everything with his own eyes. He told her that media is giving wrong picture of Afghanistan. Their lives are much better what media shows. Sp whatever you are saying if you have visited Afghanistan then i can believe you otherwise i don't trust media now :).
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Because you don't think it is abuse. Also you don't live in a place like Afghanistan so you don't count.You can sugar coat Islam all you want living abroad. That's not the true picture and the world knows It but you want to live in denial which is fine.
Exactly! I live in a free society not in the oppressed Afghan culture! Thank you for reiterating my point. I have also lived in KSA and I am still in contact with some Saudi friends and they might not be happy with the driving ban but they still stand up in prayer 5 times a day, I think that says it all. They are rebellious towards the Saudi culture but they have nothing against Allah whom they glorify 5 times a day!
And what's with "you don't think it is abuse"? Am I a retard that I won't understand when someone takes my basic rights away from me and oppresses me? I'm an adult, I have a brain, let me make up my mind about my religion myself. You're not even a muslim, what gives you the right to tell a muslim woman how she should feel?
What's the common denominator between road deaths? The car. But we don't blame the cars, we blame the drivers. Pretty simple logic that we seem to lose when speaking of religion.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
But the men are given such strong rights that women even if they demand these things dont really get them many a times. e.g. my maid's husband is a heavy drinker, gambles and does not give her money for her or the kids. Firstly, she wouldnt even have the right to divorce as easily as the man himself would be able to. She may be physically abused but what can she do about it etc.
One of our aunt's maid was being sold/rented by her husband to other men. What could she do about it? There should be such strong rights that place the equality to a level that men themselves would have been scared to take any such actions.
We the educated women still have some rights but those below the poverty level are living a life no one can imagine. Like its clearly mentioned that the man has EVERY POSSIBLE SORT of right over their wives, some more stronger rights placed would have suppressed the men from doing any wrong doings.
This inequality exists everywhere in the world and is more pronounced among those who are in economic hardships. Listen to some rap from the 90s, not the songs depicting violence but the songs that talk about life in the ghettos: women being prostituted, crack babies, people doing anything and everything to get a fix. This stuff still happens in America today. If you keep people poor, they will eventually do anything to get out. We can't even fathom that state of mind because most of us have grown up in relative comfort with parents who, more or less, support and encourage us.
^no, actually turns out muslim women can happily take abuse and all that good stuff in the name of religion. You can only blame culture so much. What's the common denominator among the following countries :Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arab? Nope it's not culture it's Islam. At least the west has learned from its past and does everything in its power to eliminate discrimination against women and minorities. You have to accept some thingsAre wrong before you make any amendments. Unfortunately, for the Muslim women it's not going to happen because even they don't want to accept they are getting the short end of the stick.
I disagree here. While I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion, a lot of the oppressive acts are cultural in nature and they can be committed by anyone.
As psyah mentions below, some things are ambiguous and he believes that the interpretation should be left up to the experts. I disagree with this. The experts can manipulate the population as they see fit. Power corrupts, and religious power is no different. The papal office has seen its fair share of scandals and muslims who reward similar privileges to mullahs risk becoming oppressed by others based on the interpretation of one man.
I also believe that people can be good or bad regardless of religion. My friend is an atheist and he made a very good point: are you really a good person if you have to be scared by Allah into acting morally? I believe most people are "good" and religion helps to keep them away from more minor infractions (making an ass of yourself by getting drunk) but people who are corrupt, murderers and thieves, will act in such a manner regardless of their religion or piousness.
Thus, my point is that the oppression of women, or other injustices, are caused by poor cultures, that have developed less civilized practices. They interpret Islam to suit their needs because they are uneducated, hungry, homeless, and seek to better their lives through any means, including violence.
An example of this is the competing interpretations of Islam in the 11th and 12th century. I don't remember the names of the schools, but one school of thought was similar to European "enlightenment", which the Europeans didn't arrive at until hundreds of years after. Unfortunately the more "fanatic" sect won politically, for various reason, one of which I believe is said to be the mongol invasion that destroyed Baghdad (the center of learning and probably the most culturally rich city in the world at the time).
Also, keep in mind that women had to fight for their rights and were basically considered property until about 70 years ago. Christian men basically owned them. Islam allowed women rights in the 7th century, it just so happens that, for various reasons, the CULTURE has evolved to oppress women.
I'm not defending organized religion unilaterally, I'm just saying that, like most complex issues, it's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
note: I have not quoted all of psyah's answer just the parts that I thought were relevant to my response.
Peace nadz123
Some of the things we do are out of habit and we get used to that some of our thinking patterns are due to the influence of the societies we live in and are exposed to ... not all of these will share the same values that are portrayed in our texts, on the other hand the same text can be viewed through the specs of various cultural norms and using the same text we can arrive at harsh interpretations that are quite restrictive and then we can arrive at easy interpretations that are quite liberal ... it totally depends on the slant we take when we read the texts.
As a result of this ambiguity it is often important to let the experts decipher the true and accurate picture ... however we are able to do some of it ourselves as well ... What we should do is think about the most strictest view and then think about the most lenient view and then think about what could be the middle path in that ... Islam is on the middle path.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Peace TheoristLook to individuals not to whole countries ... you might find what you seek.
Then what do you call ummah? Islam is a way of life; it is Your constitution Islam is not aPersonal religion. It is what makes up your ummah! Why just look at an individual when everyone in the society is affected by it? You not only govern your ownLife, you dictate others'. It is Islam that has Given individuals rights over another human being. Now in today's society, no progressive nation thinks a human has a right over another human being. If the west was so incredibly selfish, it wouldnt have health care and wellfare system in place. It wouldn't have hate crime laws to Punish individuals that break them.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Then what do you call ummah? Islam is a way of life; it is Your constitution Islam is not aPersonal religion. It is what makes up your ummah! Why just look at an individual when everyone in the society is affected by it? You not only govern your ownLife, you dictate others'. It is Islam that has Given individuals rights over another human being. Now in today's society, no progressive nation thinks a human has a right over another human being. If the west was so incredibly selfish, it wouldnt have health care and wellfare system in place. It wouldn't have hate crime laws to Punish individuals that break them.
You not only come across as a deeply bitter and trollish poster but a very ignorant and confused.
Instead of ranting on internet, how about you sit down and do some research about Islam instead of beating the drums about current day Muslims. Are you telling me Islam has no place for welfare system or the early Islamic societies never ever established such system? Dude the Welfare system came in Islamic societies thousands of years before West figured out the benefit system that we see today.
If you know Islam, please tell me how Islam discourages a health care system? Yes try talking Islam this time, instead of getting all excited by bashing Muslims.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
This inequality exists everywhere in the world and is more pronounced among those who are in economic hardships. Listen to some rap from the 90s, not the songs depicting violence but the songs that talk about life in the ghettos: women being prostituted, crack babies, people doing anything and everything to get a fix. This stuff still happens in America today. If you keep people poor, they will eventually do anything to get out. We can't even fathom that state of mind because most of us have grown up in relative comfort with parents who, more or less, support and encourage us. I disagree here. While I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion, a lot of the oppressive acts are cultural in nature and they can be committed by anyone.As psyah mentions below, some things are ambiguous and he believes that the interpretation should be left up to the experts. I disagree with this. The experts can manipulate the population as they see fit. Power corrupts, and religious power is no different. The papal office has seen its fair share of scandals and muslims who reward similar privileges to mullahs risk becoming oppressed by others based on the interpretation of one man. I also believe that people can be good or bad regardless of religion. My friend is an atheist and he made a very good point: are you really a good person if you have to be scared by Allah into acting morally? I believe most people are "good" and religion helps to keep them away from more minor infractions (making an ass of yourself by getting drunk) but people who are corrupt, murderers and thieves, will act in such a manner regardless of their religion or piousness. Thus, my point is that the oppression of women, or other injustices, are caused by poor cultures, that have developed less civilized practices. They interpret Islam to suit their needs because they are uneducated, hungry, homeless, and seek to better their lives through any means, including violence. An example of this is the competing interpretations of Islam in the 11th and 12th century. I don't remember the names of the schools, but one school of thought was similar to European "enlightenment", which the Europeans didn't arrive at until hundreds of years after. Unfortunately the more "fanatic" sect won politically, for various reason, one of which I believe is said to be the mongol invasion that destroyed Baghdad (the center of learning and probably the most culturally rich city in the world at the time). Also, keep in mind that women had to fight for their rights and were basically considered property until about 70 years ago. Christian men basically owned them. Islam allowed women rights in the 7th century, it just so happens that, for various reasons, the CULTURE has evolved to oppress women. I'm not defending organized religion unilaterally, I'm just saying that, like most complex issues, it's not as black and white as you're making it out to be. note: I have not quoted all of psyah's answer just the parts that I thought were relevant to my response.
Dude/dudette, I agree with you! I am probably the biggest advocate of human rights you can find here. I never said things like culture and economy don't add to mistreatment of women and minorities. As a matter of fact culture and economy are the biggerCulprits here. I have a problem when people compare the west with the muslim world. The two have nothing in common so why compare? They have no problem bad mouthing the west for being selfish yet they don't see the shortcomings Of their own religion! That's what bothers me. There are a million things wrong with the west but human rights is not one of them. We could argue racism is live and kicking here but basic human rights are far better here.
Re: How do you feel when you dont agree with bits of islam?
Why are you people so impressed with western culture where woman have so much rights that man can use them and at the end they even don't know that how many of their girl friends have their children. Seriously i don't want this freedom and rights. AS a Muslims we have everything what we need.
While I respect you defending your religion, what you've stated here is a gross exaggeration. I live in the US (though i'm from india) and 95% Americans I know have a stable, happy family life. Don't believe everything you see on American TV and hollywood. Women in the west are respected and have equal rights as men. Men don't go around "using" women - while there may be some cases, it is definitely not the norm.