women, islam, sex

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

all this talk about not consulting the sources directly and instead seeking refuge in a learned person's explanations reeks of escapism. for if one asks an aalim the alim might be able to offer a more politically correct, a less troubling version of things. perhaps he might even omit the ones that cant be reconciled to modern sensibilities.

why shouldnt one read the hadiths directly, if the books of ahadith are purported to be guidance for ever and ever? The prophet, as far as I remember, does not mention www.alislam.com.au as his legacy for the believers. theres two versions of that hadith, neither seems to bring the web based mulla in.

nor the non-web-based mulla for that matter.

there is absolutely no islamic basis for the notion that one should consult ulema for reading ahadith. im guessing this was adopted later on as more and more people couldnt reconcile themselves to everything in there.

22

Please do show sources please. Hazrat Mariah was his Wife, not a concubine.

23

questions:

  • what if someone comes up with a specific reference of Muslims practicing slavery today.
  • from what kind of logic do you make the jump from ‘it is not existing anymore’ to ‘it is not allowed anymore’? Muslim technological superiority doesnt exist anymore either, should we all embrace naturalism?
  • if something was ‘meant’ to be discouraged, but since it was so prevalent, it had to be phased out, how do you explain the fact that the prophet himself had slaves? along the lines of ‘its being done anyway, so might as well’?
24

.

25

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

there is absolutely no islamic basis for the notion that one should consult ulema for reading ahadith. im guessing this was adopted later on as more and more people couldnt reconcile themselves to everything in there.
[/QUOTE]
This argument raises few questions like: What was the basis of mentioning of "Scholars of the people of the book" in Quran?

Why are there ahaadeeth mentioning the importance of learned people and their company?

Why Quran distincts between the two types of scholars, Ulamaa-e-Haq and Ulamaa-e-Suu ?

26

AQ, there is a difference between saying that ulema have a position, and saying that one shouldnt read on his religion at all, except from the ulema's words. Cite me a reference that says that one shouldnt be reading ahadith by oneself, as has been repeatedly voiced on this thread.

27

You guys are getting on my nerves now.

The woman asked questions that deserve answers, not a bunch of bickering amongst yourself.
please stick to the topics or get the heck outta here and bicker in Cafe.

28

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ravage: *
AQ, there is a difference between saying that ulema have a position, and saying that one shouldnt read on his religion at all, except from the ulema's words.
[/QUOTE]
I absolutely agree ! one should **also* and must strive on his/her own; nonetheless, keep everything in context because there are thousands of places in Quran and even in ahaadeeth that can be interpreted wrong if are not understood in the reference to it's background and context. And to get knowledge you also go to a teacher besides reading books.

29

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sarah Splendor: *
Oh my god, I don't know what to think and believe anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Sarah, you need to realise two things.

  • Most muslims, shia and sunni both, acknowledge that history has not preserved ahadith the same way as Quran as remained unadulterated. Especially, IMO, with respect to ahadith.

  • Any realistic religion would need to conform to human needs and limitations. furthermore, different cultures demand different degrees of freedom, sexually. at the same time there needs to be a specific guideline, a specified way in order to ensure that we dont spiral into depravity.

what is abhorrent to you, may be completely natural to others.

30

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Maniac: *
Please do show sources please. Hazrat Mariah was his Wife, not a concubine.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry it was taken from 'Ar Raheeq Al Mukhtum' the sealed nectar, a famous biography. I havent got any other references for this though. But is was published by Darussalam, who are salafee and claim to strictly follow Quran and Sunna.

There may be conflicting reports on this issue but i dont know.

31

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
I absolutely agree ! one should **also* and must strive on his/her own; nonetheless, keep everything in context because there are thousands of places in Quran and even in ahaadeeth that can be interpreted wrong if are not understood in the reference to it's background and context. And to get knowledge you also go to a teacher besides reading books.
[/QUOTE]

agreed. thereby so long as the articles people cite do not directly address the hadith in question, it becomes irrelevant and diversionary to cite that particular aalim as the explanation.

online references do not cover everything that one may pick up when actually reading the books.

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

questions:

  • what if someone comes up with a specific reference of Muslims practicing slavery today.
  • from what kind of logic do you make the jump from 'it is not existing anymore' to 'it is not allowed anymore'? Muslim technological superiority doesnt exist anymore either, should we all embrace naturalism?
  • if something was 'meant' to be discouraged, but since it was so prevalent, it had to be phased out, how do you explain the fact that the prophet himself had slaves? along the lines of 'its being done anyway, so might as well'? [/QUOTE]

Look, I apologise, I havent got time to get into a huge discussion. This is what ive heard and it may be wrong.

I do get what your saying, but since slavery is no longer prevelant and all countries have agreements on this issue it dosent really concern us.

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sarah Splendor: *
Oh my god, I don't know what to think and believe anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should read some books on islam and islamic history which may help you understand these things that are worrying you.

Maybe ask a knowldgeable person, who may be better able to answer your questions.

Also we should be careful not to spend too much time on issues that dont really effect us (such as slavery) and focus more on other more relevant things.

34

2) Is sex with slaves permitted? I have read in places that it is and in other places that it is not because slavery has been abolished. But if it has been aboloshed then what is the repeated mention of "of whom your right hands posess" and these being lawful to you in the Quran? I have even read somethign along the lines of "Subhanallah, Islam is great because it allowed men to make their slaves pregnant and by being pregnant, the slaves were freed". I was astonished.

Well u kinda have to think about thier times, they had slaves and most slaves were used for sex and some ppl even used slaves as prostitutes to make money off of them. But Islam changed all that and by marrying a slave, you are giving her a higher status and rights. Plus, some things in the Quran are orders, some things we are engcouraged to do and somethings we are allowed. No where in the Quran does it say men should have four wives, no where does it say they will get ajar for having four wives...but looking at this messed up world today. Men go off n cheat anyways, they get gunnah for commiting zinna and the woman they do it with is basically screwed. Men are just like that I guess n its to help them from commiting that sin.

And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allâh has full knowledge about your Faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Auliyâ' or masters) and give them their Mahr according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not adulterous, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women.] This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; *but it is better for you that you practise self_restraint, and Allâh is Oft_Forgiving, Most Merciful. *
Q4:25

funny, how no one mentions the BETTER part that they should practice selfrestraint...

Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman).
Q4:28

(I kinda feel guilty for saying all men r jerks n comparing them with dogs when it kinda says in the Quran they were created that way :-/ )

Q24:33 And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allâh enriches them of His Bounty. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you know that they are good and trustworthy. And give them something yourselves out of the wealth of Allâh which He has bestowed upon you. *And force not your maids to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the (perishable) goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly). *

this ayah forbids exploiting them as prostitutes

P.S. PM :p

35

very well written tikhi jalebi.

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Tikhi yaar are you saying that men can't help but have relationships with more than one woman at one time? When you say "Men are just like that I guess", I completely and totally disagree. These are just excuses. I don't think that is what the ayat that you quoted is justifying yaar. The explanations you've added in parenthesis to the ayat are completely changing the meaning of the ayat I think yaar.

How can Islam allow for such an unfairness to a woman by her partner? From whatever I have read, my interpretation is completely different.

Maybe being a woman I am making a biased interpretation, however I know of many many men who are faithful to their wives and monogamous, atleast to my knowledge. Is there even any doubt that this is definitely possible? Not in my mind.

I think not being faithful and monogamous is wrong and blaming one's inherent weakness is just an excuse. Humans are ashraf-ul-makhlooqaat and should exercise self control.

37

well weather they do something about it or not, but most men r attracted to other women..ur saying that u know many men who r faithful well i know of alot who arent..and it kinda makes sense..btw I didnt put the parenthesis there..And I guess it depends on how they translate it n the interpretation too...but if u look at this ayahs exact meaning:

Allâh wishes to lighten for you; and man was created weak Q4:28

after the ayah about women and marrying...I think it makes sense wat kinda weakness its talkin about...right?
please someone correct me if I am wrong :-s

38

just to clear something.. the bad thing about the translation (specially english) is that we lose so much of the meanings…

men is a wrong Translation of Arabic word Insaan..

ﺎﻔﻴﻌﺿ ﻥﺎﺴﻧﻻﺍ ﻖﻠﺧ ﻭ

Insaan = Human beings not just man..

now go read the meaning .. i hope u will find the same argument and logic working on the other side of the river.

39

TJ i get ur point yaar -
men are attracted to women, sure
i guess there are women too who are attracted to men...
coz both women and men have extra marital affairs...
and MAN in that ayat refers to men and women both as i see it...
and usually we're all attracted to bad habits, thats the way humans are made, but we have to first establish that something IS wrong...and then keep saying NO...this is called JIHAD-E-NAFS...and then Allah swt will also make it easy for us

what is horrifying is that some people just think its OK and dont even admit its wrong...! sure, one is attracted to stealing when hungry, cheating when failing an exam, but does it make it OK? i dont think so yaar :S Islam teaches self denial not hedonism...we're supposed to be strong and not give in...

40

irem,

are you suggesting that the Prophet (saww) and a large number from the companions and those that came after them could not practice self-restraint? (yes, many of them had multiple wives) Is it so hard to imagine that maybe there's a reason why Allah (swt) granted this right to muslim men and not women?

Btw, i do agree with one thing... since the male-to-female ratio is pretty much 1:1 in the world, polygamy can not be practised by more than maybe 0.1%, practically speaking, since that would mean some ppl dont have wives at all.

I would definitely like answers to my initial question.