Women in Workforce

[quote]
Originally posted by armughal:
*google, i expect ppl here to have enuff brains to know that i aint comparing the age of my wife to a child but the physical strength and the susceptibility of being in trouble....
*

[/quote]

Armughal,
You know better than us what is your wife strength and weakness and you have every right to decide your affair according to your circumstances. But don’t you think it is unwise to generalize on ever single women based on your wife "weakness and of being in trouble"? Not every woman is like your wife.

very immature and cheep personal attacks

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif


It is easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.

[This message has been edited by secret_obsession (edited June 16, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by SaadiaB:
** I myself am very much against flirting in your workplace, be it boys or girls sheesh thats cheap!
Armughal, I kind of admire that you don't want your wife to work. In fact after working for several years, I feel that when I marry I will stop working. Let the man support his wife and childern, bring home the dough for food, rent, bills, cloths, education for kids, vacation and many more necessary things, and I will do my part in the house and raise his kids and he will get his two warm meal in the day. One thing I don't understand is the trust thing, like you dont trust others if your wife goes to work. Do you trust others if she goes shopping or if she tells you she is going to visit her parents or friends, what if she goes to her her bf instead, will you ever find out, what if you are way to work and thinking that your innocent wife is at home and waiting for you to come home, but instead she is enjoying her time with another guy. What I mean is this if a female wants to flirt or have relationship with other guy, there are hundred other ways as in her workplace, if you want to make sure, you know what she is up to, u'll have to lock her up in her room and install a webcamera where you can keep an eye on her and be sure that she is not going around to other guys.

**
[/quote]

if and if and if....
but dont u think letting her go off to work just increases the chances????
and who told u i'll let my wife go out for shopping alone????
i aint that open-minded....

am a muslim and know the hadith very well that a woman shud not travel (even if it means going shopping) without a mehram's company....

and pyaricgudia, u r too young yet to even make me read ur remarks with a thoughtful mind....
same goes for u too google....

and yes u r right secret-obsession....
maybe aapkiamanat and i may make a good jorri....
Quran does say altayyeboon-lil-tayeebat wal-tayeebato-lil-tayebeen....
dont read the whole verse or u'll think i put the others in the category mentioned after it....

Mostly insecurities, laziness, and cultural bs about man putting his foot down to keep the woman on a leash. I'm not going to say the future is here get up because women have been a part of the workforce since the dawn of Islam.

Khadija (R.A.) worked thats if you wanna bring "mullahism" into it.

Then,now and in the future, fliriting is always a factor to be dwelled upon. Question remains, can you trust your spouse to handle the matter? So what if women stare at her, you should question her efforts to ward off those people and yeah protect her but don't put four walls up around her. Thats just not fair.

I personally don't find that tying down the spouse is a good idea. S/he can choose to work or not. It goes against all that I believe in. I would like to think people have come out of this concocted belief about wives not working but I guess its still here and will remain till ignorance is vanquished.

Where has trust between spouses gone? Can the spouse not handle themself in a digified manner if approached by an undignified person?


Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.

.

[This message has been edited by Scratch (edited June 16, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by CocoNut:
**
Khadija (R.A.) worked thats if you wanna bring "mullahism" into it.

**
[/quote]

yes, she worked in an office surrounded by males and free intermingling with the opposite sex....
right????

dont distort images by giving incomplete details....
she had a business, most probably inherited from her father, and it was run by her servant(s)....
have never ever read of any instance where she went OUT OF THE HOUSE for work....

Armughal, you can stay indoors all your life. Dont force it on others.

I dont think this discussion gona end on any point, no one here can change others mind.

personally i respect armughal’s views & kinda agree with him. & the reasons are many, some of them are:

  1. being a man, i know how bloody we are & we know how to catch a fish,…honestly beleive it or not we know how to hit a iron when its hot enough. (means womans are still innocent not man)

  2. someone mentioned what when womans goes on shoping or something, well its perfectly okay if they go shopping, cos hiting the iron is not that easy we just cant hit it in day or two, it takes time…like when u spent 8 hours in office.

  3. Islam says taking care of wife & children is the responsibility of man not woman.

  4. working of womans is allowed in islam (when really needed, in WARs, etc)

  5. Cristianity who once beleived WOMAN"S IS HUMAN LIKE ANIMAL, & WOMAN DONT HAVE SOUL, …i wonder most ppl here supporting their ideas not islamic ideas.

i should stop writing now or i will never

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

& i m not comming in this thread again so dont ask me anything.

About my wife, Although i personally wont like her to work, but if she still wants to she can, just atleast not when the kids are too young.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/bravo.gif

[quote]
Originally posted by armughal:
** if and if and if....
but dont u think letting her go off to work just increases the chances????
and who told u i'll let my wife go out for shopping alone????
i aint that open-minded....

am a muslim and know the hadith very well that a woman shud not travel (even if it means going shopping) without a mehram's company....

**
[/quote]

If the "ifs" come true, what will you do then? well you think you can't trust the office environment, than you should not trust her or anyone at all. Maybe I believe the place you live must be full of Luffangeys, Kamchor, KameenaiN, Log, I had no problem with the office environment where I am living so far, infact it has given me confidence and I know I am able to deal with very complicated & tricky professional situations, which I would not have done before working. So I understand living in a pakistani or an arabic country, the situation must be very different, I don't know many pakistani working females living in Pakistan, but here it's quite normal. All most every pakistani female, I know works here, be it to support her husband, to have her childern future secured with the xtra dough, or just not waste her time sitting at home. So where does this idea of flirting with her colleague come from? that's not even in their wildest dreams.

The bottom line is, if you don't want your future wife to work, it's your right to think like this, no one is forcing you send her to work, infact you will have NO difficulity finding a wife, who is willing to stay at home, living 100% on her husbands expenses, so have fun while providing her with her rights.

[This message has been edited by SaadiaB (edited June 17, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by armughal:
** yes, she worked in an office surrounded by males and free intermingling with the opposite sex....
right????

dont distort images by giving incomplete details....

she had a business, most probably inherited from her father, and it was run by her servant(s)....
have never ever read of any instance where she went OUT OF THE HOUSE for work....

**
[/quote]

Alright armughal, I'm gonna make a meager effort to your your response. My previous reply was not intended towards you. It was towards the audience that thought contrary to what i believe in, whom have little/more knowledge of what i speak of and this info of Khadija (R.A.) was a tidbit of info rather than a whole detailed biography. Oh, by all means correct me if i'm wrong I'm no scholar. Here goes . . .

She mingled with men for business purposes, her slaves and personell were men as well, thats the point i was getting across.

Now as for distorting images by giving incomplete details. Pardon me for completely disagreeing with your beliefs about keeping women indoors, perhaps you would like to enlighten me why is it so wrong for a woman if she wanted to work outside of the house. If you can possibly convince me the slightest I maybe able to take what knowledge you will disperse and apply it to my personal life but so far it hardly seems that way.

The incomplete details you refer to are guilty yourself of making probabilities and assumptions without any core evidence that she inherited the business of her father. For that matter you furthered it by saying its run by her slaves?? Really now, lets not paint our own pictures here.

What is established is that she had a business and she met our Prophet, hence mingled with him and found out his way of life through business. Correct? I'd say so Yes. So she wasn't "intermining with the opposite sex" then? Wasn't he an opposite sex? Wasn't he in an open environment office? Was that not business conducted? Business has no boundaries to be conducted. From a drug dealer at a back alley to a Bombardier Boeng jet settlement, business can be conducted anywhere hence an office environment can be created in any given circumstance. I don't think you should accuse me sarcastically about Khadija (R.A.) intermining with the opposite sex in an office given the vastness of offices.

Just because you have never heard of an instance where she went out of the house for work (which I'm sure she did) doesn't mean you should assume she was locked in. I mean how else did the Prophet inquire about her when he was hesitant, she had a reputation business wise and otherwise too.

Ok, I'll just cut it short here and listen to the rest of what others have to say about this. You know its so nice of you to take one sentence out of context and not answer the remainder questions put forth. This is not the forum for religious content but just for this post I'll indulge and then pass along whatever you say because unless you can sway me otherwise I'm not going to listen to your bashing of my personal beliefs.

Lets see if you and the rest of the folks can be civil and do without the bashing.


Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.

[quote]
Originally posted by SaadiaB:
**

If the "ifs" come true, what will you do then? well you think you can't trust the office environment, than you should not trust her or anyone at all. Maybe I believe the place you live must be full of Luffangeys, Kamchor, KameenaiN, Log, I had no problem with the office environment
... bla bla bla
**
[/quote]

the survey poasted above is not of pakistan and neither of any arab country....
and dont give me all this about no flirting and all....
ever heard the sparks and flame theory????
we humans r no angels....
its just natural to get attracted to the opposite sex....
best to avoid it....

coconut, slaves r counted as mehrams....
Islam does not prohibit a woman from seeing her slave or even a servant....
(dont bring up issues of women having relations with servants cuz i am against servants as well)

Now King armughal you lost all arguments, that you are acting like a stubborn kid, go with peace, I have no intention or time to argue with a spoiled kid, in the body of a grown male.

Great! Thanks guys ... rolling eyes

aj, sorry. This really went off the track didn't it?

Perhaps you would like to start another thread and phrase your opening paragraph differently.

armughal,

Although I disagree with you, I respect your opinion and will not attempt to change it.

I know of several women out there that are less confident of themselves than I am. They are pegged as people that have low self-esteem and suffer from anxiety when asked to fend for themselves in the big bad world. I'm sure that you will make a more than suitable match for one of them providing both parties with what they are looking for in a spouse.

It takes all kinds.

Coconut,

You're so right.

I was waiting to see how this discussion pans out. The topic itself is interesting, and I believe armughal's posts turned it into a more relevant discussion. What non-muslims do in their social lives is no secret, so for this forum, the more appropriate twist will be, what do Muslims feel about the whole affairs-between-co-workers thing.

Ahmadjee, first of all, there is a lot of difference between flirting (many people do it in the garb of being friendly) and having sex. Not all flirtation ends up in sex, and your first post specifically talked about "office sex". So its more than flirting, its actually goes several steps ahead, from the flirtation stage. And so what I said in my initial post about sexual harassment issues should be clear to everyone. Sexual harassment, is a hot topic in USA and, probably, in other western countries too.

Anchal raised a good point, that when talking about women having sex, why are we conveniently ignoring that equal number of men, if not more, are also engaged in this activity. So if either of them is married, it raises important questions about marital fidelity.

Coming back to armughal's points, I believe he raises several interesting issues, although I will only like to expound upon some of them. I think, some of the responses provided by SaadiaB and Coconut also address the same issues and if any of you wish to get a more Islamically focused answer; I am sure you can do more research or discuss it in the Religion forum. As this is not posted in Religion forum, so I will restrict myself to only the social implications of this discussion.

Being married for many years and living in the west, probably gives me a slightly better perspective on this whole debate. Essentially, the discussion boils down to the matter of "trust". In our everyday lives, invariably we get attracted to opposite sex, which is natural. The sign of a mature and responsible adult is to keep such "sparks" under control, especially when you are married. Sexual virility is a poor excuse to behave as animals. Whether you meet someone in super-market, on a traffic signal or in an office environment, regardless of how much you are attracted to the other person, it helps to maintain a clear focus on your relationship with your spouse. If you don't do that everyday, and keep running after the next most beautiful thing, realistically, you can kiss your chances of a happy and satisfying marital life, good-bye.

Armughal also raises a valid point that working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week with other people is potentially far more serious than meeting someone in a super-market, for example. And the implications are that women, almost always, will be far more susceptible to sexual harassment than men. His argument is why subject her to that. This is very true. Although, most western countries, I know USA does, are coming down very hard on this issue. In addition, if someone is already married or engaged, then other co-workers, in most cases, respect that and will not be making passes. Then again, each case is different, so we cannot generalize on that account. Whether a wife should work or not is an entirely personal issue for the couple to decide, and it depends on many factors, so I will not be spending a lot of time discussing this issue.

The last point by armughal is again very interesting. This is about allowing wives to go around on daily chores without a mehram. Again, for the best Islamic answer, I may not be the right person, but logistically speaking; I have seen it both ways, though due to completely different reasons. Initially, when my wife didn't had a driver's license, we always used to do all shopping together, even groceries. All the time, I was in the office, she would be at home. This puts a lot of pressure on the both partners, especially if the husband works long hours. Now that she does drive by herself, this frees up both of us to make the best use of our time. I don't have to worry about going out again to get grocery at 10 pm on a weekday, and she can utilize morning hours to take kids to their schools, bring them back, do the groceries, meet with her friends and generally have a more productive life without being entirely dependent on the husband for small chores. Trust me, once your kids are school going and your wife doesn't drive, you will have a tough time managing all the different activities.

While, on a personal note, I have no disagreement with armughal, as he or anyone have to make their own decisions on these issues, I do sincerely advise him or anyone else, to contemplate and discuss these matters before marriage, with your spouse, so both of you enter into the relationship with greater clarity of mind and expectations. This saves a lot of heartache and headache in latter lives, as some of these differences in basic ideology in social lives can result in terrible tragedies.

Have a nice day.

[This message has been edited by Faisal (edited June 17, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by :
*And the implications are that women, almost always, will be far more susceptable to sexual harrasment than men. His argument is why subject her to that. This is very true. *
[/quote]

Faisal,

When you suggest that women will be far more susceptible to harassment, what do you base your comment on? The emotional vulnerability of the female gender relative to that of the male? The impact of a male-dominated global society?

Though I agree that women should be "protected" or "shielded", I take exception to armughal's opinion not at the conceptual level, but at the literal level where he suggests that this should not be a matter of choice for the woman. Perhaps I have misinterpretted what he has written. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Not really. I had based my perception on the reported cases of sexual harassment. In almost all such statistics, you will find that women reported a much higher percentage of sexual harassment than men. For example, one such study suggests that “anywhere between 40-70% of women and 10-20% of men have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace(Source. The percentage of men reporting sexual harassment is also on the rise, i.e. it tripled in recent years, but it is still far lower than women.

Also check out this:
http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/harass.html

Thanks for the clarification. I wanted to understand what factors you were basing your theory on.

[quote]
Originally posted by Faisal:
*Armughal also raises a valid point that working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week with other people is potentially far more serious than meeting someone in a super-market, for example. *
[/quote]

Overall good points, but I disagree with this upper quote. When a female wants an extra-matrimonial affair, it can beginn anywhere, the chances that the potential of a working female in an office environment, being involved in this pratice is greater, just ridiculous, does not make any sense in my mind.

You guys are scaring other men from letting their wifes to go to work. Let's take it, if this assumption is true, then non-working females(housewifes) should worry more about their office working men. :~O

[quote]
**
And the implications are that women, almost always, will be far more susceptible to sexual harassment than men.

[/quote]
**

This sexual harassment is another issue, it depends on the environment the female is working at. But again why are people so scared of being sexual harassed, there are laws in the west, that protect the rights of men and women.

[This message has been edited by SaadiaB (edited June 17, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by SaadiaB:

** Overall good points, but I disagree with this upper quote. When a female wants an extra-matrimonial affair, it can beginn anywhere, the chances that the potential of a working female in an office environment, being involved in this pratice is greater, just ridiculous, does not make any sense in my mind.**
[/quote]

You quoted it, slightly out of context, as that whole passage relates to sexual harassment and unwanted pressures. No one wants to be sexually harassed. Consentual sexual danglings between married co-workers is another issue and it relates to the matter of "trust", which is covered in an earlier paragraph. If a married woman wants to have an extra-marital affair, she can start it in any place, and is not restricted to office environment.