In some areas of Pakistan (and also in many other Muslim countries) women choose or are forced to cover their faces in the name of Islam. Since this is a man-made requirement (it is not in Quran), isn’t this an innovation, or bidat?
Zara
I am not sure about it being in the Holy Quran, But I am certain that there are Hadees Sharif regarding this matter. Unfortunately I don't know any hadees on this matter by heart so I cannot quote any. You have to bear in mind that not everything about Islam and Islamic society has come from the Holy Quran. A large number of Islamic laws and principles have come from Hadees sharif.
Naz
since u insist on blaming men for one reason or another. i will talk about men. a close thing for men would be growing a beard. "Islam (Quran and Hadith)" prescribes it and there is sawab for men who keep a beard as it signifies purity and simplicity.
Now if i dont keep it for one reason or another.... should i call it a man made custom a bidat and put it down. Similarly pardah for women is prescribed. The ones who observe it are rewarded for keeping it in Islam. The ones who dont.... well who cares about them but they shouldnt put it down and convince others into not doing it.
choose or are forced to cover their faces in the name of Islam. <<<<<
if a woman is forced to cover her face then thats wrong. it should be the choice of the woman. then again forcing of anything is bad.
but if they chose to do it... then whats wrong with that? btw its my observation that a man with a beard and noor earns more respect and dignity than a one who doesnt and same goes for women who observe pardah.
i just dont understand that a paak thing like Pardah that separates muslim women from the rest of the world would be seen as such a bad evil thing among some muslim women. Pathetic indeed.
Hello Mundyaa. Where does Quran mention keeping a beard? Interesting comparison, though. I think Pardah is enforced much strongly than beards with men, and covering your whole body with cloth is much different than wearing a beard.
If covering the face is not compulsory, and is not even in the Quran, then why are women sometimes forced to do it and why is it a law in Saudi Arabia?
Mundyaa, we were evidently posting simulaneously, and you addressed one of my questions even before I managed to post it.
You mentioned that if it is forced, then that is bad, but if it is voluntary, then it's good. Hmm, I don't know for sure, but in the areas where it is practices I don't think that most women could get up one morning and decide not to do it.
For me, this is an example of extremism in religion. More (covering) is not always better. If God thought it should be covered, wouldn't he have said that? This is adding a practice to the religion that was not prescribed by God, so I am wondering why it is not considered innovation.
[This message has been edited by zaraatif (edited May 08, 2000).]
Zaraa,I would humbly advice you to do a little bit of homework before claiming the act to a Bidaa't. Who told you that its not in Quran.
"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Though, the fuqaha' stated that in certain situations, women are permitted to uncover their faces in front of non-mahram men when it is necessary to do so, and it is permitted for those men to look at them, provided that this do not go beyond the bounds of what is necessary, because what is permitted on the grounds of necessity should not be exaggerated.
- Proposal of marriage
- Business dealings
- Medical treatment
- In court (if she is one of the parties or giving testimony)
- In front of mature boys who feel no physical desire
- In front of the man who has no desire
- Old women who are past marriageable age
- Hajj and `Umrah
- Compulsion (Laws in non-Islamic countries prohibiting them to cover their face).
Enough Said
Tariq,
Everything that you have quoted which is in parentheses is actually interpretation added in rather than translation. That is why it is in parentheses. You got that from a Saudi translation, right? The way it would read without the parenthesis is:
"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Compare that translation to others and you will see what I mean. There is no mention of covering the face.
Zara
Where does Quran mention keeping a beard? Interesting comparison, though. I think Pardah is enforced much strongly than beards with men, and covering your whole body with cloth is much different than wearing a beard. <<<<<<<<
For me Islam comprises of Quran and Hadith. Thats what I wanted to convey. If you dont consider the later to be Islam then you are mislead.
I will want to think that you are not against the concept of pardah but only when its ENFORCED onto others. Here is what I think.
Farz namaz is enforced.
Sunnat namaz is not enforced. But there is great sawab for praying sunnat namaz.
Growing a beard is not enforced. But there is sawab for keeping it.
Pardah is not enforced. But there is sawab for observing it.
Now convincing and even forcing someone to pray namaz especially when it comes to someone very close to you is a very good deed. Especially parents should make an effort by doing so with their children.
Convincing someone to observe pardah and to keep a beard might be a good thing if the other person is convinced by heart and will be growing a beard or keeping a pardah for sawab and not just because it was enforced onto him/her.
But convincing others into NOT growing a beard and observing pardah is im afraid misleading and a sin.
Many things that we do in pakistan are based out of no where...they dont belong in islam...people do it because they THINK its a good thing to do...ignorence is major part of problem people dont read quran or hadith by them selves...they have peers and molvies to read it for them that is stupid...islam is a complete religion it does not need thinking of some ignorent stupid person to have some things added or subtracted...people do it on name of naaiki...but really they are putting hell fire in their mouths.
Jaawan
Till next time**Keep_It_Simple_Stupid**©
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited May 08, 2000).]
Zara, first disregard my post of the same content in the other thread.
I agree with you that I got the Saudi translation (and interpratation). Is that wrong? Please don't take me worng. I am not arguing with you. I just want to develop some understanding reagrding this matter.
"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies".
Is "Face" not part of your body?
Mundyaa,
You worry about your sin, I will worry about mine. But please debate with me if you wish! I still don't think that wearing a beard can be cared to covering the face? Then why don't men cover their face if it is such a good thing, why only women? Do women have something extra on their faces that men don't have?
Tariq,
I agree with you that the face is part of the body. However, the saudis have tried to make this verse sound more dramatic than it is. Other translations say that it should be wrapped around the "bosoms." Bosoms is indeed correct, because I looked up the word in a concordance of the Qruan (which gives the definition of each word in each verse).
Zara
Good explanation Zara. You seem to know what you are talking about. Though I have one more question. According to my understanding, women are asked to cover themselves cause men are pigs (couldn't comeup with a better arguement). So now you are required to cover your chest so they (we) cannot ogle. Dont you think that a beutiful woamn's face can arouse men more than her below-the-neck area. Shouldn't it be covered too?
I think that SOME responsibility should be left with the men. Don't you? Isn't part of Islam to build inner strength?
I think it is too much to ask women to cover their faces out of doors. Would you want to wear a sheet over your head? God does not ask women to do this.
Zara
Tariq,
You are driving your conclusions NOT from the actual verse of the Quran but from Sahih Bukhuri V.1, p. 108, hadith no. 148.
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 148:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).
The verse al-Ahzab 33:59 that you have quoted below have additional interpretations built into it which has been derived from Bukhari hadith no. 148. Here is the translation of the verse 33:59 that you provided:
[al-Ahzab 33:59]"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Compare the verse that you have provided with the often-quoted & renowned: Yususali, Pickthal and Shakir to recognise that the emphasis on "ALL OVER THEIR BODIES" is coming from the Hadith and, not the verse of the Quran!
al-Ahzab 033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Tariq – By giving more significance to the hadith DISTORTS the actual meaning of the verse al-Ahzab 33:59.
You worry about your sin, I will worry about mine. But please debate with me if you wish! I still don't think that wearing a beard can be cared to covering the face? Then why don't men cover their face if it is such a good thing, why only women? Do women have something extra on their faces that men don't have? <<<<
weeein weeein weeein. there are a lot of things that women have that men dont have and vice versa. Women dont grow mustache and/or beards unless i.e u r from india. Similarly men cant give birth to children only women can.
If their anatomy is different and so are the ways to hide their bodies. The argument you have can also be applied to chests..... why are women made to cover their chests and men arent? after all men also have them so why should women cover their breasts just cos they are bigger unless i.e u r an indian. :)
yeah and learn the difference between debating and whining first.
now now mundyaa,
you dont need to start bashing indians to rally support for your weak arguments regarding the actual topic.
Queer Yar, He does. Man, paranoia has no borders or boundaries. This is his way of internationalizing poli-tits.
Mundyaa,
Rant, rant, rant! Learn how to debate instead of ranting and raving ;).
Women do have breasts and men don't. That is why they should cover their chests, agreed. But they do not have breasts on their faces, Mundyaa! That is my point.
Zara
im not bashing indians...... merely pointing out a common observation. i thought it was considered beautiful to grow mustache in indian women? atleast the ones i came across had mustache bigger than mine. i was very envious of them. :)