Women - brainless and impious ?

***A hadith states that the Prophet (SAW) upon him blessings and peace, addressed a group of women in the mosque, saying:

“I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked: “O Allah’s Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said: “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said: “This is the deficiency of your intelligence”… “Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said: “This is the deficiency in your religion.”

It is related in al-Bukhari and Muslim.***

Note:

  1. The least publicly experienced women are the ones most likely to need support when giving evidence, however, they are least experienced because they are best cared for, i.e. they have had little need to fend for themselves.

  2. Those who have prayed or fasted the least are those who have had most need not to fast or pray, hence are likely to be menstruating women or in their youth.

The deduction can hence be made that a group of women who fall in the above 2 areas are the most ‘deficient in intelligence and religion’ if you assume that:

a) not needing support in evidence is symbolic to ‘intelligence’ and
b) not needing to stop praying and fasting is symbolic to being highly ‘religious’

The reality is that adopting the two female witnesses is a concession and not praying or fasting is too. The concession allows women to gain the ‘confidence’ and the ‘spiritual reward’ equal to men who need to try harder.

Due to the advantage that women have, the prophet (SAW) used clever word play to make the advantage look like disadvantages to them in order to encourage them to give charity.

By telling them that they need not try as hard would actually provide them reasons to become complacent.

We know that this statement upon analysis does not brand all women as deficient, but rather only those who were in that group and the deficiency is really the advantage. It’s like a handicap in golf … women have a lower handicap than men in those matters …

The reason one would say this conversation took place is that the prophet Muhammad (SAW) never lied, but he (SAW) could use the truth in a way where it’s understanding would be useful for the Deen.

Re: Women - brainless and impious ?

The hadith itself doesn't make much sense. What made Muhammad (pbuh) come to the conclusion that these women were deficient in intelligence and religion? Wasn't it himself (or God) who dictated that the evidence of two women is equal to the witness of one man? You said, "The least publicly experienced women are the ones most likely to need support when giving evidence." How so? What kind of support are we takling about? If they witnessed a crime, then what support would they need in order to testify against the culprit? They will say what they saw.

I don't even comprehend Note 2. What does menstruation have anything to do with intelligence? Again, the rule that they cannot pray during their mense was imposed on them, it doesn't make them deficient in intelligence or religion. Besides, aren't women required to make up for the Ramadan days they miss afterwards due to menstruation? So how does the "concession" allow women to gain confidence and spiritual reward? I am so confused.

Re: Women - brainless and impious ?

man thats a lot of reverse psychology being attributed to the Prophet. Do you have any basis to support your analysis psyah?

Peace Miss_Noland

Look at the detail ... it will help. Notice the prophet Muhammad (SAW) addresses the women in the group directly, but when explaining his statement he uses the general case for all women. The wisdom hence that is behind why Allah (SWT) prescribed 2 women witnesses or 1 man witness is altogether prevalent in the representation of womanhood in the group that was before RasoolAllah (SAW). What is that wisdom? I have said that it is or rather could be that women were not always involved in public affairs and tense situations may make them nervous, but this is only a guess it could be an array of things or something else. The fact is that the prophet Muhammad (SAW) knew something about the female group before him and as a result of his unmatched insight he made that statement. He used the word 'intelligence' to represent the specific issue of public legal testimony, it was not a sweeping statement. The evidence for this can be found in the statement ... after he (SAW) sought affirmation from the women.

The same can be said of being unable to perform prayers and fasts at certain times, there must have been some insight that led RasoolAllah (SAW) to conclude that the female group before him represented them being 'deficient in religion' ... here 'religion' is used in place of a specific injunction based on the female natural cycle. Not that they are deficient in religion, rather that they have a need to observe, which is representatory in the group before him. It would not make sense to say this to pregnant women as they do not menstruate nor would it make sense to say this to elderly women. Hence, it could be that these women were young.

The context of this hadith is that it was a time when charity was being collected and a campaign was on to encourage alms giving. As part of this hadith the prophet Muhammad (SAW) also said that hell would be dominated by women, without actually saying that it would be those women before him, according to my belief those were all Sahabiyya so that riwayah was meant for other women, however it was said to them and they took it personally. Muhammad (SAW) got a message across without being false about it.

Note in the first instance he (SAW) said that THOSE women were 'most deficient in intelligence and religion' but then quoted a general case to support his argument, remember intelligence and religion are really code words as explained in the hadith itself, and in the second instance when relating of how he (SAW) saw many women in hell, he never said THOSE women were any of them.

Yes, of course

Re: Women - brainless and impious ?

People will make all kinds of excuses to make something implausible appear plausible, instead of admitting it might have been a weak hadith to begin with, or misinterpreted by the narrarator, or certain comments by the Prophet may have been left out or forgotten by those who heard the original statement which clouds the current interpretation of the hadith.

But then that would be admitting that the Hadith are a collection of knoweldge tainted with human-human transmission as oppose to Glorious direct revelation from God via an angel.

^ Yes, just like some people will make all kinds of excuses to make something plausible appear implausible.

Look around for examples.. you won't have to look very far. ; )

No, it won't help... Don't you see how twisted and wrong this is! What if men were called out for being deficient in intelligence and religion the same way Muhammad (pbuh) called out these women? I mean why go to this length to defend something that is so obviously very offensive! I understand that it's hard to hear criticism about something that has become a part of your identity but seriously?!!!! It gives me just another reason to believe this could NOT be God's religion. Wow, only a man will underestimate women like that...

Why don't you for once post a hadith or verse of Qur'an that calls out men for lacking intelligence? Just once..

Like what?

psych ji,

You dont make sense all the time, do you?

I know someone who was given some hadees books by her wahabi friend. I happened to have a glimse on those hadees books too. Right now I cannot recall which hadees books those were. But must be the ones wahabis follow.

In less than 30 mins, I was convinced that I was reading some kind of 'sex or porno material'. The issues were so descriptive than was need of. The non-sexual issues had mostly violent & extreme approach. But actually, anyone reading those books wont even be interested to read anything else other than the sexual issues because they were so descriptive as if meant to please the reader & not concentrate on the issues. It seemed that the intention of the author was to gain as many readers as possible by using the techniques the porn makers use.

Before these books made way to this home, the couple was living happily. After the hasband also had a glimse of those 'hadeeses' espeically the sex slave ones, his mind turned upside down & he started telling his wife that it was 'right as a muslim man' to have sexual relations with housemaids & he clearly started checking out their housemaid in weird ways after that.

The wife replaced that housemaid but the husband's mentality never changed back to 'normal'. All the new housemaids complained to wife about her husband's actions. The wife has become so insecure. She returned the books immediately to where they came from but still is totally in a state of depression due to her hubby's actions & change of beliefs.

They were a very happy couple before that before these hadees books arrived. I am sure these & many other hadees were never meant to start chaos between the couples & families by the prophet. They meant to 'do good' but one must be extremely wise to know exactly in what context they were meant and should be applicale in which situations.

Regarding your post of women brains deficiency, out of personal experience with jahil women of the deserted arab lands, I am not surprised about these kinds of hadeeses for women. When I keep those women, their actions, their hypocritic ways of doing things, in mind, I can clearly understand why such rules are there for women in the first place. Although, these rules should not be applied to all the women especially:

  • women who are not natives of deserted arab lands
  • do not come from tribal cultures / families (because in that case, they would have less 'tribal' qualities)
  • those who are are more spiritual
  • those take take charge & responsibility of their own lives & actions
  • are not dependent on any men
  • are not hypocritical
  • have a clear understanding of what is wrong is what is right

Much spiritual & 'responsible' women would firstly be unable to understand them at all & find them very crazy. And if you enforce similar rules on women by danda, you would either turn them away from islam or they'll end up in mental asylums.

Re: Women - brainless and impious ?

^ Very good post. I can agree with that a 100%

Peace Ambassador1

It seems either I have been unable to communicate my point or you have not understood what I wrote.

In post #4 above ... I wrote this

Note in the first instance he (SAW) said that THOSE women were 'most deficient in intelligence and religion' but then quoted a general case to support his argument, remember intelligence and religion are really code words as explained in the hadith itself, and in the second instance when relating of how he (SAW) saw many women in hell, he never said THOSE women were any of them.

Rather you are saying Arab women were deficient in the actual sense, but I am not even saying that. I am saying firstly he (SAW) was only talking to that group of women, and what he (SAW) said was only meant for them. Furthermore, because of the use of 'hyperbole' and 'synechdoche' in his speech to them one can conclude that the 'deficiency' was not even literal, but really a bit of reverse psychology.

If you are trying to take a feministic approach then I applaud you, but trust me my version is more in the favour of women than yours as I have neither applied it to any whole nation of women on any time, but simply for a group of female individuals nor that being have I applied it literally.

Another piece of evidence that demonstrates my point is if anyone is 'intellectually deficient' why would a wise and clever person use that to argue a point with them? They would neither understand it nor pay attention to it.

However, on the other hand, if the same person is able minded then telling that person something based on some sort of argument would be worth doing, because then they would do something about it. It would create the premise for action - in this case that was charity.

On the grand scheme of things it appears that a caution was effective in getting that specific group of women to act.

Peace PyariCgudia

I but only agree with you in principle, but we cannot state this hadith is weak in the sense of non-authentic. We can say that it might be incomplete, but I have provided the complete context here already, this was not from me but taken from the exegesis of scholars who have analysed this narration with respect to other hadith. There is another hadith same time on Eid in the masjid and RasoolAllah (SAW) is addressing the women in 'jest' behind the arm of Bilal (RA) and he says things to them so that they start giving from their jewelry.

Authenticity is determined by the strict criteria of transmission ... it is multiple and supported by other hadith, however what we can say is that WE may not have understood it.

In the case where other hadith are presented and using the other concepts here one is not being apologetic about the hadith rather simply explaining the correct way it should be understood.

Some hadith although sahih are actually called gharib which means that it is difficult to gauge the meaning from them without consulting other hadith around the same issue, it does not make them less authentic. So the problem is not with the early narrators, rather it is with how we understand those sayings in today's removed mindsets.

I am a woman but sorry i will not believe a woman narrating me what she saw at the crime place. Women have habit of exaggerating, spice up things and never stay to the point. You have to look at what majority does and then make a law according to that. God knew women too well and hence two witnesses condition.

A friend of mine who went thru divorce, his wife was swearing to God in front of judge that her hubby did all bad things to her. And she shameless woman was all lying.

Sorry but an extremely lame post so far on this site.

First Letter to Tahira

Women and Islam - Tolu-e-Islam Trust

Okay psyche, thanks for the post, I must have misunderstood.

But if it was for that specific group of women the prophet (pbuh) was dealing with at that time, why did they make it a general rule for all the muslim women? Is it because the majority of muslim women are like that or is it because majority of arab women are like that?

And no, I was not speaking out of feminist approach. I have myself found arab women of the desert generally more prone to lies, deception, hyppcricy & bad attitude. Majority of them, not all as in 100%.

Reverse psychology is also usually used with children in order to discipline them. Women back then were dumb I guess... It's not true anymore hence not needed and many rules regarding women should be changed. Something like that only encourages those who want to abuse and manipulate women, and it's evident in many Muslim countries. Instead of trying to make others understand the purpose behind what was said to these women, change it!... We could do without this primitive culture which no longer applies to women.

Wow...... to hear something like that is very disappointing to me and all the women who have worked really hard to do away with negative gender stereotypes against all the odds. If God knew women too well, women wouldn't be suffering today from inequality and injustice.

Peace Psyah!

This a a delicate and somewhat inflammatory topic.because it is not well understood by many people and hence no good conclusion can be expected.

I understand thast having menses and not being required to do the religous tasks should not be considered a negative point.

I do not know how having two women requirement for evidence be considered a positive trait unless it is explained a bit more.

The hadith word of being weak and less intelligent is even more inflammatory. Even though it most likely meant one woman could be fooled by someone and in order to protect her another woman should be consulted.

In Quran it was mentioned something like appoint two lest one may forget. It speaks of some specific transaction and not general day to day life events.

Not such a hard ruling in my humble opinion. So no need to beat it.

Yusuf Ali:

O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do.

Zohurul Hoque:

O you who believe! when you transact a loan-transaction for a fixed time, then write it down. And let a scribe put it down between you equitably; nor should a scribe refuse to write since Allah has taught him, so let him write down. And let him upon whom is the liability dictate, and let him revere Allah, his Rabb, and let him not depreciate anything from it. But if he upon whom is the liability is lacking understanding, or is infirm, or has no capability of dictating by himself, then let his attorney dictate equitably. And call on to witness two witnesses from among your males; but if there be not two males, then a male and two females out of those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two be in error then one of them may be able to remind the other. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are summoned. And do not neglect to write it down,- whether it be small or large,- along with its due time. This is more equitable in the sight of Allah, and more upright for evidence, and is the best that you do not doubt, except when it be a ready merchandise which you exchange among yourselves, in that case there is no blame on you if you do not write it. And have witnesses when you sell to one another; and let not a scribe be harmed nor a witness. And if you do then that is indeed a sin on you. And revere Allah; for Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knower of all things.

T. J. Irving:

You who believe, whenever you contract a debt for a stated period, write it down. Let some literate person write [what goes on] between you properly; no literate person should refuse to write it down. Just as God has taught him, so let him write it down, and let the borrower dictate. May he heed God and not omit any part of it. If the borrower is feeble-minded or incapacitated or cannot manage to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate it in all fairness, and seek out two witnesses from among your men-folk to act as witnesses. If there are not two men [available], then one man and two women [may serve] as witnesses from anyone you may approve of, so that if either of them should slip up, then the other woman may remind the other. Witnesses must not refuse [to serve] when they are called upon, nor try to get out of writing anything down whether it is small or large, along with its due date. Such [procedure] is more equitable so far as God is concerned and it makes for more valid testimony, as well as reducing the chances for doubt; unless it is some transaction handled on the spot that you pass around among yourselves, in which case it will not be held against you for not writing it down. Call in witnesses whenever you engage in trade, and let no literate man nor any witness feel obligated if you do so; that would be immoral on your part. Heed God, for God teaches you! God is Aware of everything.

T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:

O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allâh has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must fear Allâh, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable himself to dictate, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allâh; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So be afraid of Allâh; and Allâh teaches you. And Allâh is the All-Knower of each and everything.

M. Pickthall:

O ye who believe! when ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write; and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah, his Lord, and diminish naught therof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interest dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand), then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. Aand the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be not averse to writing down (the contract)whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell one to another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.

M.H. Shakir:

O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.