This is something that has always bothered me. I understand that it is asked in Islam to keep a bit of a boundry between males and females, and I’m not in favor of mixing in the workplace anyway (ps. do not debate this point at all. Current stats of workplaces clearly show the amount of at work affairs which go on)
However, at the same point, whats stopping these governments from building and maintaining women only industries? There are many skills which women are much better at, and wouldn’t this help the country overall?
Forget that even, what about women in the mosque? I mean many things can be justified but what justification is there for not letting women in mosques/schools/workplaces (eg taliban govt or the nwfp govt now) and letting them be contributing members of the society? By simply keeping them indoors you’ve halving the potential of the country right?
Anyhow.. just something playing on my mind, since from what I’ve noticed, women would constantly ask the Prophet questions, would visit the mosque and generally participate in the society. Thought I’d gather some views on the topic
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
However, at the same point, whats stopping these governments from building and maintaining women only industries? There are many skills which women are much better at, and wouldn't this help the country overall?
[/QUOTE]
Whats stopping women from building such industries themselves? Why wait for government (any government) to do everything? Most industries and businesses are developed by private enterprise, anyway. When men can do it, women can too. And do. In Pak, there are several women-owned businesses. Same here in US.
I will love to argue the original assumption of segregating the male and female work-areas, but I guess that is not what you want to discuss. So maybe some other time.
I'm talking about govts like taliban/nwfp types. In those governments its actually the men stopping the women.
And since you would love it oh so much ;-) to discuss the original point with me, and knowing how I am such a nice person, do open a new thread and we can beat the crap out of that issue once again :D
I am sorry. I think (I may be wrong) that Taliban are not the best specimen of a good government. Their hearts may be at the right place, but in essence they were an army (a rag tag one to boot) who was forced into the rule of government and were found severely wanting.
MMA in NWFP is the same. Their are basically religious people who have gotten themseleves in the role of rule-makers. They may turn out good. So far they have not done a great job. With time, they may make better rules to enforce whatever they believe in.
But the point is, to expect inept people to take the lead and develop industries to cater to women is perhaps asking a lot. Experienced and good government leaders do take lead in such issues. Women Bank, Women loans and Women industries are part of policies in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Malaysia to name a few. I am sure there are many more such examples all over the world.
Even in western countries women-owned business are treated specially. Not because they want to segregate women based on some religious laws, but because they feel women have historically been mis-treated and focus of bias, so it will take more affirmative actions to bring them up to speed in industry and business.
Faisal the point is not whether men and women can do equal jobs. I am a firm believer in the fact that there is a reason we are different genders, because each has their own strengths, if both genders had the same tasks in society, all of us might as well have been the same gender.
What I want to know is, if these governments (however lacking they may be) they may have a point in the segregation of genders in society, but that does not mean that women themselves (i.e. even despite the segregation) can not contribute to society. To teach the females, you need female teachers.. for female patients, you need female docs.. to manage the female section of the mosque (if there is one) you need females to organize it, run separate kind of events etc... you get the drift?
To me there are two separate roads of thought.. one says 'Why are you supressing women by not letting them work WITH men?', the other says 'this isn't the duty of the woman, she should be indoors!!' and they're both incorrect (IMO) the best productivity can be found at the mean of this argument i.e. having either female counterparts in ALL professions such medicine, IT and hence establishing schools/colleges/organizations for them, rather than completely kicking them out of the societal circle.
I ask, because I know that many muslim females here in North America are very active with regards to their societal duties. Such as helping the mosque, managing the females section, running classes and camps etc, and they do this all while following the strict niqab and keeping minimal touch with the males!! To me, that seems like an excellent way of avoiding what has happened in many western workplaces, and at the same time not stopping the females from contributing.
I'm talking about govts like taliban/nwfp types. In those governments its actually the men stopping the women....]
...]What I want to know is, if these governments (however lacking they may be) they may have a point in the segregation of genders in society, but that does not mean that women themselves (i.e. even despite the segregation) can not contribute to society. To teach the females, you need female teachers.. for female patients, you need female docs.. to manage the female section of the mosque (if there is one) you need females to organize it, run separate kind of events etc... you get the drift?
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever been to the NWFP? Or are you basing your assumptions on plain old hearsay? 'Cause mister those are some pretty big assumptions you're making.
GfQ.. yeh unfortunately this is only from what I have heard. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, if you have some article etc which can give me a clearer picture of whats going up there then please do share.
I actually talked to a couple of friends who reside up there and they said the same things.. but like I said, i would be more than happy to know i'm wrong.
the thing about women not having a place in the mosque is something i've experienced myself though :)
I agree with the Main point of discussion.
Females are very important part of any society.
They should not be forced to stay indoors all the time.
Faisal Bhai, you made some valid points about taliban and MMA. but i am unable to understand that whenever some hardcore islamist make Rule, why they leave out commonsense.Like for example i heard a news item that in Saudi Arabia 5 or 6 school girls were burned to death in presence of firemen cuase
**Males are not allowed to touch females ** in Saudi Araibia. and in Taliban era they banned females from doing jobs.they never thought about female patients who is going to treat them ?
I Reckon MMA is going on these lines.
Ammaar ,...i agree with you to some extent ...but not all :)
being a woman i don't mind staying home ...actually this is what i prefer ....n i would say more power to a system which will practically allow us to take care of our households
concept of houswives is very much misrepresented ....(i think)
when a women is serving strangers in a plane as an air hostess or she is working in an office etc.....she is regarded as an active part of her community ....but if the same women gives priority to her household n her kids ....she is thought as a burden ....or at least someone taking no responsibility ....to me its ridiculous
but well , when it comes to professions like doctors or teachers ....i say they should go ahead ....but women out on streets just for the sake of being 'independent' ......a big 'no'
as for MMA ....i think we shouldn't just criticis them .....they r humans like us ....but definitely they r more devoted to a cause...n when for the first time in our history they r being given a chance ....let them work on it ......or we will just witness more n more unrest
If anyone thinks that housewives are taking "no responsibility" or are "not and active par of the community", they are indeed ridiculous. But that is not the issue at hand. It is whether women who are working as air-hostesses or doctors or pilots or bankers or launching missles from a submarine also as responsible and an active part of the community.
To deny them access to their personal professional fulfillment on the basis of religion while allowing men to do it. That is ridiculous.
though , as a women i can debate on 'personal professional fulfillment' as u can check the statistics of sexual abuse in the world's most freedom lover country against these women ....but well , to each his own ....n i can understand as being a non muslim , the issue at hand is complete nonsense for you ...so its ok ....!! :)
Matsui, I know it’ll be hard for you to comprehend but many muslim women actually ARE family centred and are not too interested in a career anyway.. and this is not a forced belief on them!!
Afia,
I completely agree with you. More often than not I’ve noticed that a lot of women prefer to take care of their household.. their kids and their husband.
Social involvement isn’t necesserily in terms of an ‘outdoor job’, but more so about how to just be involved in the community? Get together with the local women, have a permanent praying place.. have a teacher.. gather up the kids and teach them about islam collectively. That sort of thing.
Education/career etc can be pursued by those women who find that as a means of satisfaction.. and ofcourse by those who dont have as many responsibilities (i.e. not married yet or dont have kids yet).
But I do agree that independence for the sake of rebellion is not something I like either
Ammar, Trust me, I understand completely. There is no difference between housewives and women who are muslim, hindu, christian, martian etc. "Family centered" values are not a monopoly of one religion or culture.
whiile in a patriarchial society it might serve your notions of anachronistic male dominance. In the currrent world,women have fought for equal opporunities in the fields of professional endeavours ranging from science, sport, disciplines mechanical and scholarly. It is up to the men, to stop being impediments by suggesting that women cannot do both. Or steo up and leave your mediocre being to help your wife or sister achieve her fullest potential.
You should meet the muslim women that work in banks and are docors and athletes, ask them whether they agree with the notion of their career not as important as yours middling one.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *
GfQ.. yeh unfortunately this is only from what I have heard. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, if you have some article etc which can give me a clearer picture of whats going up there then please do share.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry I don't have any articles,etc. to share with you, all I've got is firsthand knowledge. There is nothing 'going on' up there, I've been asked that quite a few times, especially because it comes up so much in the media, everything there is normal, how would I define normal? - I guess the best way to put it is that there is nothing 'going on up there' that isn't 'going on' in the rest of Pak. I've noticed in the last few years that a lot of people from areas outside the frontier have some sort of complex about those that do live in the frontier, i.e. illiterate, uneducated, religious fanatics, etc., it gets a little annoying at times, but i'm getting off topic. You're asking about the status of women in society in NWFP. I don't see anything out of the ordinary in their role, they are not prevented from contributing to society in whatever way, they are not prevented from learning, from working or the like. Sure the environment is segregated, but thats to be expected in an area that claims to be staunchly muslim, but mister, the women there are far, far from suppressed. Your claims seem pretty ridiculous to me, but no more ridiculous than the astonishment i've encountered from others that ask about my family, and learn that they're nowhere near the exception in nwfp, as i said before there seems to be some sort of complex regarding those that reside in nwfp. Anyways, you mentioned women and mosques, as someone has already stated, that is not a problem unique to the frontier, so i'm not sure what you were getting at with that.
Anyways, i'm out, I only spoke up because such blatant stereotyping doesn't go over well with me.
my impressions had been from whatever I had read in most newspapers.. the only pakistani newspaper i follow regularly is dawn, and many published news articles and editorials constantly pointed to there being a bit of a stricter code of conduct for women. I didn't mean to say women were opressed .. NOT THE POINT AT ALL!! My viewpoint was just that I do agree with the segregation, but if only it would be followed with an equal increase in the opportunities present.
Anyhow I do apologize for the misconceptions. The point was not to stereotype the people in NWFP but more so the 'thought'.. even though as you state that the thought is not common in NWFP, it is prevalent in other areas of the world, and i could point to many guppies here who uphold that viewpoint. As you can clearly see from my initial post the point was to rationalize the two common thought processes on this issue and not to point fingers.
Anyhoo.. you had more knowledge of "whats going up there".. so you clarified the issue there is no need to get upset over it.
and in Taliban era they banned females from doing jobs.they never thought about female patients who is going to treat them ?
but many muslim women actually ARE family centred and are not too interested in a career anyway.. and this is not a forced belief on them!!