Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

*AK47- *

Women in mosques - No curtains, no walls, no partitions!
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"It is perfectly Islamic to hold meetings of men and women inside the Masjid, whether for prayers or for any other Islamic purpose, without separating them with a curtain, partition or wall". An emphatic ruling from Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi.**
Question: We have a big controversy going on in our Masjid. Some brothers want to build a wall in the Musalla to separate men from women. Is it required in Islam? What are the basic rules of Shari’ah in this matter?

Answer: Men and women both are allowed to pray in the mosque in the same Jama’ah. When men and women are together in the Masjid then we should have first men’s lines behind the Imam, then children and then women. This is the way Muslims used to pray behind the Prophet - peace be upon him. He did not make or ask his companions to have a curtain or wall between the lines of men and women. (See Al-Sindi’s Commentary on Sunan al-Nasa’I, p. 798)

According to the Shari’ah it is not required to have a partition, neither of temporary nor of permanent nature, between men and women in the Masjid. Partitions were introduced inside the Masajid later in Islamic history.

Jama’ah means a congregation of people who are praying behind one Imam in continuous lines without any barrier or interruption. People who pray behind the Imam they should either see the Imam or see those who are in front of them. There is no Jama’ah when a person is in one room and his/her Imam in another room, the lines are not continuous and the people behind the Imam are also not visible. Otherwise people would not have to come to the Masjid for Jama’ah prayer. They would stay home and pray listening to the loudspeakers from their Masajid or through intercoms. They could nowadays even pray Jama’ah prayer in this way in their own homes listening to the prayer broadcasts coming from Makkah and Madinah on their radios, television sets or through the Internet. But no jurists have ever allowed a Jama’ah prayer in this way.

The definition of Jama’ah that I gave above is a general one and it is applicable to both men and women. Only in the case of necessity this rule can be relaxed. For example, if the Masjid was too small and people had to pray on different levels or in different rooms to accommodate every person then this would be permissible because of necessity. Muslims should not deliberately and for no reason bifurcate their congregation in their Masajid.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

How about since the time of our beloved Prophet (saw)! The whole “women not in the masjid” thing was invented by you desis. In almost all Arab countries the women pray in the masjids behind the men. Even in Hanafi masjids in Syria and Bosnia you will find it done properly this way. Barriers and other such cultural nonsense come to us courtesy of the subcontinent

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Women were never explicitly forbidden to lead a congregation in prayer. However, the scholarship that deals with the rituals we follow extract them mostly from the hadith. Given the hadith, there is only the one (weak) account of a women actually leading a congregation of a mixed gathering.

Prayer is a core ritual, and so if we start playing around with how we structure Jamaats, then where do we stop? I want to put the emphasis on the core ritual part…

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Careful…no one is rejecting anything.

Needless to say, the Sunnah is typically used to deterine what is forbidden. Female prayers were never explicitly forbidden. So the arguments aren’t completely out of the blue.

I’d argue that they’re simply malformed. The Sunnah are also used to determine how to perform our key rituals (Namaz, Hajj, etc). In this case, it’s a matter of following as closely as possible.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Mixed gatherings were allowed, and are Sunnah. What was not done (we shouldn’t say ‘allowed’ as this isn’t a legal matter exactly) is shoulder-to-shoulder kind of mixed gatherings. The business about a wall or a barrier seperating men from women is strange talk, unless by barrier you mean a line of children.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

AQ: Just for shyts and giggles, why don't you enlighten us to a hadith that strictly forbids women from leading prayers or says that ONLY men can lead prayers?

Only one of these two options (or both) can make your case strong. Otherwise, your position is strongly influenced by male-dominated culture (of basically all of mankind).

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

^^

Neither is there a Hadith prohibiting anyone from going around dancing and singing as a form of worship…So if I decide tomorrow that doing the breakdance while doing my Wuzu is OK since it was not mentioned doesn’t make it right…

As you grow up a bit, you’ll learn that there is a difference between what is permitted and what is no part of Islam…

This instance is no part of Islam and it not being permitted or disallowed doesn’t make it valid making part of Islam…Innovation is hellfire and trying to mess and alter the purity of the commands of Allah :swt: has grievous consequences…

If you believe in Allah :saw: and his Prophet :saw: then any such innovations will seem like poison to you…

What is permitted, allowed and condoned is polygamy, which I believe every Muslim should have the freedom to practice…

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

rather i’d say the onus is on you to show clearly a verse or hadith which expressly permits women to lead in prayer a mixed gathering… acts of worship and the ways in which they are performed are legislated by Allah… it is not for anyone to make up his or her own manner of worship under the misunderstanding that, well, there’s no text forbidding it… otherwise we may as well forget about revelation from Allah and invent our own forms of devotion…

“And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands.” (Qur’an 8:35)

in other words, self-invented with no authority from Allah

p.s. i see Lajawab has just made a similar point :slight_smile:

p.p.s.

I believe Al Tabari (d. 310 AH) is one of a rarity of scholars who held that it is permissible for a woman to be the imam in prayer in absolute terms, i.e. for both women and men (not sure if he stipulates certain conditions however). This differs with the overriding majority view. One reason for the slight disagreement is based on how to understand the following report (which i’ve abridged):-

"When the Prophet (saw) proceeded to the battle of Al Badr…

Umm Waraqa sought permission from the Prophet (saw) to have a mu’azin in her house.

He (saw) appointed a mu’azin to make the call to prayer in her house, and he commanded her to lead the people of her house in prayer.

Abd Al Rahman said, ‘I saw her mu’azin and he was an old man.’"

(See Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol. 1, #591 and #592)

Al Sanani’s (d. 1182 AH) conclusion in his work Subul al Salam suggests that rather than taking this report to grant permission to women in absolute terms it should be taken to mean that she may lead the “people of her house” (males included) or any other mahrams in prayer but not non-mahrams (unless elderly).

armughal posted another view on the hadith of Umm Waraqa in this thread…

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=180821

… which gives Mufti Desai’s understanding of why the hadith doesn’t permit women to lead mixed gatherings… see also:

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=14326

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

gupguppy, it is bias that makes people set limitations to even this hadith. just the fact that we're trying to analyze exactly who these men were that umm waraqa was leading is INDICATION that bias of male-dominated culture is factoring in.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

^ what in your unbiased opinion can we learn from the hadith?

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

What hadith derives from a time when there wasn't a male-dominated culture within Islam? That's a circular argument.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

^ so how many authors of the 27 or so books of the New Testament were female then?

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

If you read what i said instead of posting blindly i did’nt mention women not allowed in the mosque you can say sorry when you ready.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

By means of barrier this in realistic terms this is usually a curtain it is not strange at all.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

None. Ancient times had a male dominated, patriarchal society. That’s why IMO a timeless religion should transcend time and not consider a different culture and norms as ‘innovation’.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Gupguppy, you can learn that there is nothing demeaning or embarrasing about allowing a woman to lead you. What matters is that the leader must have a brain that they actually use. That's all.

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

So what??? Isn't Islam suppose to promote that men and women are equal?? :D

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

The hadith was in fact a weak one…

Male bias is a factor, but for the actual method of performing the rituals of Namaz in a group, it is quite clear that females had typically not lead the prayer in congregation. They’ve lead armies, but not prayer :slight_smile:

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

Following the rituals of Islam are not meant to be political. The onus is on those to proove that the ritual somehow reduces the intrinsic worth of a female. No doubt mysoginist scholars of old have tried to do this, but the fact is it’s all about following the traditions of the Rasool (pbuh).

Re: Woman leads Muslim prayer service in Toronto

The point was that many, many hadith were taken from women.