Great scenario. Walk into a country, destroy all its infrastructure and institutions and when anarchy takes over then create a council and ask it to request a withdrawal and also tell the world if we leave there will be civil war. (Who created these conditions in the first place?). Ooooh!!!!! what would the world do without such compassionate upholders of freedom and liberty. The mind boggles.
^^ the americans tried so desperatly to so seeds of disunity putting shias and sunni in confrontation.
It backfired bigtime where even in examples like battles of fallujah you had shias and sunnis uniting even travelling all way from basra and bagdad to fight the occupiers!
Mawarid,
The ethnic and tribal tensions of Iraq were always there. The tyranny of Saddam just added a layer of conflict. Rip away the Saddam layer and you get to see Iraq for what it really is, the Arab Yugoslavia. We did not make it this way, it has been this way for centuries.
The real question is, will Iraqi nationalism, essentially British drawn borders, overcome local, tribal, and ethnic concerns. I doubt it. Sistani is saying that he wants a democracy, but only if the democracy guarantees Shia dominance with no checks and balances from the minority groups. Sunni's will not be happy until they are running the country again, and the Kurds think the rest of them are holding back the Kurds, who are the most ignored in this debate because they have had their civil war, and are past it...
You can lead a camel to water, but you cannot make it drink. The prospect of democracy is infront of Iraqis, and I personally am convinced that they must either learn to seize it, or the window on democracy will close.
is he an idiot !!! or does he regard other people of the world to be foolish and ignorant likes of fox-news-watching americans.. Iraqis have been DYING for americans/perverted/ruthless/barbaric/occupiers to LEAVE already.. sheesh !! unless powell/bremer (others who make such statements) want it in writing.. signed n notorized..
or perhaps americans feel they have the firm grip on the pseudo-iraqi-ruling party to be.. (or not to be), that will never really ask them to leave.. bravo !! cheapantics..
Yes, he has made many “boastful” predictions throughout the war, and been proven so wrong every time, that frankly it has become embarrassing. Just read his prediction in April about how America would truimuph in Falluja, and get all it’s demands met - my, my how wrong that was. 
Or the fact the Iraqi Kurdish leaders have recently been blasting the US for creating the mess in Iraq.
“Iraqi Kurdish leaders have recently been blasting the US for creating the mess in Iraq.”
US still welcome in Kurdistan
15 May 2004
IWPR - By Kareem Omer
Kurdish peshmerga fighters even protect the American base and accompany soldiers on main roads.
By Kareem Omer in Sulaimaniyah (ICR No. 63, 14-May-04)
American soldiers based here don’t have to call in air strikes against foreign fighters or exchange gunfire with Baathist loyalists.
Nor do they live in mortal fear of deadly IEDs, or improvised explosive devices, along the roadsides.
In fact, says one soldier who travels in this area, “I always see the thumbs up, and little kids offer us candies.”
Major John T Hubert, one of around a hundred members of the US army and special forces based in the Sulaimaniyah governorate in north-eastern Iraq, said, “I tell people I have the best job in Iraq. People love us here.”
He and his fellow soldiers in the 451 civil affairs battalion are assigned to monitor up to 28 CPA projects initiated by the local Kurdish government.
The Kurds have been running their own governments in parts of northern Iraq since the end of the 1991 Gulf war.
With a budget of 1.6 million US dollars, the civil affairs soldiers have overseen school renovations, bridge and sewage reconstruction, and the building of a 195,000 dollar dialysis centre. They have also equipped student activities centres, and other smaller projects.
Based in an old Iraqi military facility on the outskirts of Sulaimaniyah, the American troops spend their spare time playing cards and chatting online with their families and friends back home.
They also venture out to explore nearby mountains or stay in the luxurious hotel at Dukan Lake, 45 minutes from Sulaimaniyah.
To make life a bit safer for them, Kurdish peshmerga fighters protect the American base and accompany soldiers on the main roads.
“I gain a lot of comfort from the PUK [Patriotic Union of Kurdistan] leaders and peshmergas,” said Sgt George L Rivera, who sent Iranian rugs and jewellery to his family in America, along with the standard photographs. “I feel safe here,” he said.
Other US soldiers echo his feeling.
“The Kurdish military and police made every resource available to ensure the safety of American troops” said Major Mike Simonelli of the US army reserves who served in Sulaimaniyah from the end of the fighting last year until this March.
Significantly, the Kurds do not view the US soldiers as foreign occupiers of their land. “We look at them like guests who will not stay here forever,” said police officer Abdulla Kamal.
The Kurdish press - both party and independent - never refer to American forces as “occupiers”, “invaders” or “the enemy”, as do news outlets in other parts of Iraq. Here, they are called coalition forces, US soldiers or liberators.
And in other parts of Iraq, where Shia and Sunni religious leaders form a nucleus of opposition to the coalition forces, Kurdish clerics espouse a more tolerant view.
“We are happy the American forces are here,” said Sheikh Majed Hafid, whose grandfather, Sheikh Mahmood, led the Kurdish rebellion against the British occupation in the early 1920s.
The sheikh is the Imam of the Grand Mosque which lies in the heart of the Sulaimaniyah bazaar, not far from a billboard-sized mural of his grandfather who looks over a bustling traffic circle – the site of demonstrations against the British and their Iraqi government in the 1920s.
Deep inside the mosque, Sheikh Majed sits at his computer in front of a bookshelf which houses classical poems in the Farsi language by the Iranian poet Hafiz, along with Arabic religious texts and Kurdish language Islamic books.
Throughout the centuries, the sheikh points out, the Kurds have been under the rule of Persian, Ottoman and the Baath party invaders. But the Americans are a lot easier to get along with.
“We don’t care if they stay here for another 100 years,” he said.
Kareem Omer is a journalist based in Sulaimaniyah and is IWPR’s Kurdistan coordinator.
http://www.kurdmedia.com/reports.asp?id=1979
Read it and weap…
It's always amusing to see how con-ies like OG and Seminole really feel for the iraqi ppl..."ooh if we leave, kurds are going to kill sunnis...sunnis are going to kill shias etc etc...." and they strongly believethat american military presnce would be the soln. to that...
well then why not send american military to other ppl in the worl with even more civil unrest? like Africa...?? why does the Iraq have the blessing to have its internal problems fixed by US...
The hypocrisy is so ever clear...
^ The hypocrisy that is clear to me is those who pretend to feel for the Iraqi people or ANY OTHER people while offering nothing but complaints with no solutions or action. Where were you when the Iraqis were suffering under Saddam? Counting the dead as you are now? Where are you NOW when there is suffering going on in almost every Muslim country around the globe? (Note I mention Muslim country while your question asks about Africa. It is beyond any reasonable rationale to expect you to help a non-Muslim country.) The fact is that the US has been the largest humanitarian provider and proliferator of freedom and democracy while others are busy complaining and doing nothing to tackle the problems.
ahaan…so your soln is to kill 10000 innocent children and women…take them prisoners (of which 90% of them are innocent)…and then build gay pyramids..mighty impressed by Egypt hunh?
Yeh mayble I’d also be able to come up with solns if i would be talking in my head to Father(God) like Bush and be surrounded by religous christian freaks..
so ur equating the iraqi suffering under US with their suffering under Saddam…very correct analysis, those poor people are the ones who suffer at the end, be it saddam or bremer in power…
I did aganist Saddam what i’m doing aganist this crusade right now…speak up.
Africa has muslims and non-muslims..hillbilly… 
True, US has given out lots of aid to other countries, but that is besides the point here. Proliferator of freedom? haha, how, by closing down newspaper in Iraq?
You still have not answered my question. If US waged a crusade in Iraq for the liberation of Iraqi people, why not send troops to other parts of the world with more unrest?
When I ask what you have done, I am asking what your governments, military, clergy or anyone else that represents you - just as you ask me to answer for my government, military or people.
When I speak of the realities of US providing aid and democracy around the world (including Africa), I speak of its magnanimity. In other words, the US is asked and has provided help to countries that have nothing to do with their culture or religion. This is in stark contrast to the egocentric policy practiced by the Muslim world.
You concentrate on nothing but the negative, totally ignoring any thing good that has or will come from this action in Iraq. While naked pyramids didn't do much to promote freedom and democracy in the short term, it does not spell doom for the future of Iraq. Changes have been made and there is a possibility for a future.
Shutting down some piddly little anti-American newspaper run by thugs in clerical robes does not negate the fact that the US is chiefly responsible for the profliferatrion of democratic nations over the past century.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *.
Shutting down some piddly little anti-American newspaper run by thugs in clerical robes does not negate the fact that the US is chiefly responsible for the profliferatrion of democratic nations over the past century.
[/QUOTE]
Freedom of speech SHOULD be respected. You have inappropriately used 'labels' to justify your [wrong] point of view. You imply that the editorial staff and the jouranlaists working for this newspaper in question were 'thugs in clerical robes'. Other than demeaning the clerics, we also know this was not true for the newspaper in question.
If America has to occupy some country, it must set up a good example by placing in effect the same values it uses for its own people.
As for those who say Saddam was tyrant blah blah...let me assure you that he was even a tyrant when the biggest ally of the US ....which was for over a DECADE, a period during which, with strong US support, he invaded Iran and killed millions using the chemical warfare for which the technology/know how was provided to him by the Americans themselves. And dont tell me the 'dumbass Arabs' had the brains to make and use the stuff from there own. Saddam was a US pawn, his purpose was served so that he was removed. This is precisely which you US-chamchaas should question the action of US at this specific time, when Iraqis are being abused...heck they maybe just 'dumb Arabs' but they are also human beings....for the love of humanity, its wrong to impose war on a country, destroy it's infrastructure, rape and molest it's people and bomb their homes. Saddam did all this because of a nod from his big-daddy. It comes as little surprise that US is now using the same tactics that Saddam did, for Saddam and US were always inter related. Plain and simple - Iraq is now much, much worse off than it was under Saddam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
When I ask what you have done, I am asking what your governments, military, clergy or anyone else that represents you - just as you ask me to answer for my government, military or people.
[/QUOTE]
so what have mine (muslim) govts/military done aganist this crusade? have they sent their armies to fight aganist US? they did nothing to save innocents while under Saddam..and they'r doing nothing right now too...
[QUOTE]
When I speak of the realities of US providing aid and democracy around the world (including Africa), I speak of its magnanimity. In other words, the US is asked and has provided help to countries that have nothing to do with their culture or religion. This is in stark contrast to the egocentric policy practiced by the Muslim world.
[/QUOTE]
ahaan..i heard ya the first time. Now why doesn't US send its trrops there too? just like Iraq..
[QUOTE]
You concentrate on nothing but the negative, totally ignoring any thing good that has or will come from this action in Iraq. While naked pyramids didn't do much to promote freedom and democracy in the short term, it does not spell doom for the future of Iraq. Changes have been made and there is a possibility for a future.
[/QUOTE]
good thing..yeh that 10000 ppl were killed? Those pyramids depicted the attitude of american higherups in the military in iraq...those ppl being prosecuteds are just pawns...who were taking ordsers of "softening up" prisoners...and these very same ppl have been entrusted to bring "freedom" to iraq..
And where is freedom of speech when u go and start closing newspapers? Or is it only limited to views congruent to the crusaders?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Where were you when the Iraqis were suffering under Saddam?
[/QUOTE]
I believe you people were supporting him to the hilt in his invasion and 8-year war against Iran, and shaking his hands while he was chemically bombing people. When he gassed the Kurds you people decided to try to stop Congressional condemnation of him, and carry on supporting him. Then you people made the Iraqi people suffer under the cruel sanctions regime which killed millions of Iraqi's while we actively opposed this.
After Saddam had served your purposes you needed to ensure the oil remained in your control, so after telling bare faced lies over WMD you illegally invaded Iraq, and have so far butchered 12,000 Iraqi's. My what concern you hypocrites have had for the Iraqi people over all these decades?
It's over for you in Iraq - you have been defeated.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ehsan: *
*^ Iraq was there before America....
[/QUOTE]
**
And just to add on to the earlier comment regarding the "dumbass" people of Iraq - their ancestors had managed to create one of the most highly sophisticated civilizations in the world for their time period. Mesopotamia, Babylon - these words ring a bell in anyone's hollow head ?
[quote]
And yes I forgot the most important thing they bought to Iraq "shock and awe". Poor, dumbass Iraqis, they should be grateful to the Americans for doing so much for them in such short a period. Saddam is probably in "shock and awe" at the American record at Al Ghuraib prison.
[/quote]
Saddam Hussein is probably sitting in some cell laughing his head off at these new torture techniques at the Abu Ghraib prison. Too bad his tete-a-tete with the US admin didn't last a few more decades - he could have learned a few valuable porn torture methods from his former chums.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
*
And just to add on to the earlier comment regarding the "dumbass" people of Iraq - their ancestors had managed to create one of the most highly sophisticated civilizations in the world for their time period. Mesopotamia, Babylon - these words ring a bell in anyone's hollow head ?
[/QUOTE]
There is a famous saying about Baghdad.. Either all innovations came to Baghdad or came from Baghdad.... Worlds first scientific convention was held in Baghdad by these dumbass people of Iraq... I wonder why do these super bright follow these dumbass people of Iraq and hold world scientific convention each year. Ohhhhhh truth hurts...LOL..
The ancestors of Baghdad did a lot of wonderful things, but now they are nothing of there past history. Quit living in the glory of the past and see the realities of today.
Yes i have seen the "realities" of today, thank you, and i was rather disgusted by some realities we have all been witness to in the past few days.
There is no "glory" in doing what the Occupying Powers have been perpetrating on the people of Iraq. Withdrawal is the only option.
Semi, This is the cult of personality which is rife with blame displacement and absolving themselves of responsibility. When Saddam was killin ghis people, it was US' fault. It didn't occur to these guys to declare jihad aganst Saddam and go after his head. WHy? because Sadda was fighting Shias, who many here consider not such great muslims. They complain that why isn't US in Africa. Well, neither are they? Actually they are...just fomenting violence. tsk...tsk
That’s 20 foreign terrorists i.e. occupation soldiers killed in the last week alone, as the Fallujah-style humiliations continue for them all over Iraq.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
That's 20 foreign terrorists i.e. occupation soldiers killed in the last week alone, as the Fallujah-style humiliations continue for them all over Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe they should keep a casualty counter as a sticky thread?