With no offense to women

Re: With no offense to women

Dawa, how do you know what I have read of Jewish history? I simply have not brought it into this thread as it is completely unrelated. I happen to be an educated westerner and therefore have had education in world history. I can also go googling around and find national statistics on pakistani rates of drug abuse, adultery, STDs, teenage pregnancies etc etc but is that the point here? I dont think so....

All of your spoutings on pre-marital sex in the USA may sadly be true....however, what are the same stats in Muslim countries? There are good and bad people everywhere. Westerners are not the whoring, evil Muslim-haters that you make them out to be - far from it. The sad part of this is that while westerners are willing and able to give easterners a chance, that is not reciprocated by people like you - although I have to say that thank goodness, you're type is not the norm.

You completely missed my point about any negative feelings westerners have towards muslims - all I was saying is that westerners have negative bias against OBL types and never did I try to imply that you were from swat...dont know where you got that idea....

Anyway, to answer your questions about me personally...I was born and raised christian. I married a Muslim. And at the moment, I cannot claim to have a religion. Its something that I am personally working on and reading about. Reading about Islaam is a wondrous thing, its a truly lovely religion....at least till you hear the things being spouted by "jihadi types" like the maulvi in Swat. But thats beside the point here, yeah?

I have seen and experienced life here in USA and in Pakiland. Like I said, there are good and bad people in each and every corner of the planet, the west is not a paradise of angels but neither is it a den of fornicating infidels as you've tried to imply. Same goes for Pakiland. To say some of the ignorant things you've been saying about life in the west leads me to beleive that you live in Pak and have never visited the USA nor have you met personally any westerner.

Re: With no offense to women

Thanks everyone for the informative posts.

Now coming to the following comment.

Hmm....If I apply your logic on your own post, it would become the following:

^^ But I won't apply your logic on your post. Why ?!?, because I think you have a right to sincerely give your opinion/criticizm on what I say, because it is the duty of every human to encourage what he thinks is morally right and discourage what he thinks is morally wrong.

Also your logic automatically applies on you when you say:

^ So yes, according to your logic (which applies also on you),** let them decide themselves if my first post is right or wrong "for them". You are not their keeper, they are not your pets**

Makes sense ?:)

And ofcourse I was just giving my opinion which might be wrong. You would be "Certainly" right to say "You are not their keeper, they are not your pets" **ONLY** when I am physically forcing them or mentally controlling them to go against their will, which I am not. And they can happily ignore and criticize my posts, if they don't agree with me. I am just giving my views. SO, your "this" point is unreasonable.

Re: With no offense to women

sorry sis...i do not mean to say that..you are more knowledgeable than me...no doubt...the point is jewish history is full of wicked and betraying plans and incidents..like that plan of raising slogans of woman equality..bring them out of house...and then shatter the house institution...and jewish media nd think-tanks are fully suporting it...so tahts the connection...

sis...plz..dont take as East vs.West...both have pluses and minuses...the media influencial effect on west is far far greater than east...unfortuately..we are also on thier ways...this is just because the colourful neon signs of equality of women ...which west poses..and then make the symbol of grace...and bashfulness...dignity..like a perl or a diamond.....just a hooker of 35 $ per hour !!!!!

thankyou sis for the information...i pray that allah may show u the right path of islam..ameen ...andd plz..never jdge islam by swati jahil maulvis...learn what quran and sunnah says...best wishes from me always for you....ameen

i agree..exceptions are always in every case... i just talk abot the what majority is following...anywys...if my words feel you hurt ..i am deeply sorry ...i am not against West...they are wonderful people..so much tolerant and moderatre..majority...but what trends are going in West..and what jewish media is portraying about muslims..this thing is making the bay between two even more deeper...so needs a dialogue ...rather than clash of civilizations....

best regards
wasalam.

Re: With no offense to women

Ok... wow.
Ok let me try this. Submission to Peace:
" I heard some people saying that if a man can walk/swim without a shirt, so can a women ?!?!"
This is said because the law is to hide one's genitalia. Breasts are not considered genitalia. Change the law, change the debate.
Men and women should be treated equally, according to the law, and in practice. However, equality does not mean ignoring obvious differences. Men should be treated equally amongst men, but a man with only one arm is obviously not going to be made to lift heavy objects in a factory environment the same as a man with two arms would. Demanding equality does not mean that you reject reality.

Educating women has nothing to do with degrading them. The degradation comes from attemping to equate equality with one being androgenous. Of course, this doesn't work.
And yes, there are stereotypes about Western nations and the people who reside in them. However, 30% of caucasian babies are born illegitimate. 60% of african american babies are born illegitimate. 8 out of 10 women have sex before marriage. The majority of couples now reside in 'alternative,' lifestyles, meaning most people in america who have a family, are not married. 63% of people 14-21 are sexually active, and as the previous statistic has shown, most of them are not married.
The world itself is very backwards when it comes to women. The world is one giant patriarchal slam fest where women are and will be treated inferior.
We even have Bratz Babies movies where BABIES are in midriff tops and shaking their butts on the camera. Infants being sexual. I used to work in a female clothing store, a mother bought a thong for her 10 year old daughter. Why would a 10 year old even know what a thong is? Modesty has disappeared for women in this society. Men can no longer gauge what a woman's boundaries are because they're taught (as well as women), to be constantly available. If you aren't available, then you must be damaged. So because men can't gauge what a woman's boundaries are, they take any rejection as a personal rebuke. This also contributes to the rape epidemic we have in the USA. Women are taught less that their value lies in their minds or on their accomplishments in life, rather, they are taught that if they have value, they will be wanted by men.
I want to add one more thing.
A famous French philospher/politician once said:
'The chief cause of the extrodinary prosperity and growing power of america was due to the superiority of their women. I also observed that the virtue of americn women was protected by punishing rape by death. American legislators have made almost every article in the criminal code less harsh, yet they punish rape by death. And no other crime is viewed with such disdain by public opinion. There is reason for this. As the Americans think nothing is more precious than a woman's honor, and nothing deserving more respect than her freedom, they think that no punishment could be too severe for those who would take both from her against her will. In France, where the same crime is subject to milder penalties, it is difficult to find a jury that will convict. is the reason the scorn of women or the scorn of chastity? i can not rid myself of the feeling that it is both."
( this was quoted mid 1800's I believe. I can find the exact quote, if need be).
Now rapists on average get 5 years in jail.
Just think about it.

Re: With no offense to women

^
First of all, thanks for an informative post with good reasoning.

I seriously doubt that. I need referrances. According to what I heard in a discussion infront of thousands of people including Americans and other people, The stats says the following from the US department of crime.

  1. Almost every minute a woman is raped in USA.

  2. A rapist is taken to trial for the first time, after doing approx. 120 rapes and the court leaves him without punishment considering it to be his** FIRST RAPE !?!? **( Most cases of rape are not reported as the victom is either killed and her body disappeared or she is afraid of the threat/ embarrassment after the trial.

  3. More than 95 % cases of rapists when asked about the reason of their rape, their reply is :
    a. The victom was wearing seductive and revealing dress
    b. The victom was behaving in a seductive manner.

  4. In more than 95 % of cases of rape, either the victom or the rapist was found to have more alcohol in his blood than usual.

  5. The US department of Crime agrees that the most effective way of stoping rape is to follow the way used in the Saudia. That is, women should cover herself completely and the rapist should be punished to death, but they also agree that this is not practiced in most cases.

When I was listening to the discussion and Dr. Zakir Naik mentioned these stats, there were senior officals from USA also attending the discussion. If these stats were wrong, they could have immediately cross checked them. BUT they agreed of those stats to be true.

Re: With no offense to women

ooo I didn't put it into context. This was a quote from Alexis de Tocqueville, who lived from 1805-1859. The law has changed now, that's why I mentioned it. The simple fact that before, women were respected, and now they are not.

Re: With no offense to women

^ Oh..ok. I appologise for misunderstanding your post. :)

Re: With no offense to women

^ again, finding clear disasters in other cultures and justifying their experimentation as a better way is not right either.

at many levels, oppression and exploitation of women in the west and in the east is primarily due to the mentality of men and those women who think that women's exhibitionism from male and female designer shows female models cat walks to disgusting nude females' clubs and bars to the porn magazines and actual brothels is all servicing men.

so while denying sexual liberty to women, in legal and married context (desperate wives situations), in the world there are countless women subjected to trafficking, violence, rapes, brutal physical and mental torture and eventually lives that are painful due to disease and even murders at the hands of men who have abused these women.

no woman chooses to be in any of these ignoble conditions. men are responsible for this.

west or no-west - caucasian or brown or pacific or arab or african or hispanic

all women are at some point in time, go through their men’s' insensitivity.

that is why in the west we had feminism, that yes, may have had flaw of negating women's powers at home, but no one can deny that with that came a lot of failures in raising good families.

even when women were not promiscuous, but working, and managing house responsibilities, their husbands were fooling around with other single or desperate married women.

clearly we wont want this to be the end of a societal system in any society.

first off, people need to get married to one person of opposite sex, at a good age, when both have sufficient education and financial stability, (30 +) , and not act like a mouse or bat, and sneak or fly away last minute.
(this risk has to be taken and it better taken be free of doubts and with a really good intention)

second, each couple needs to define its distribution of labor out side of and in side of the house and plan their family.

third, each couple must have a mission as a couple, as a member of their original families and as example for their off spring and be contributing member of the society they are a part of.

there is no room for promiscuity in a wedding.

that is why a woman must divorce such a man or a man must divorce such a woman. if this couple has child/ren - s/he/they will suffer either way. may a single parent can raise them well.

at work, and at home, a couple must be a complete source of comfort for each other - emotionally, economically, socially, personality, physically and spiritually.
rest is up to the Maker to make it work.

then, you wont need the self destructive free-wheeling demoralized personal life of sexual glitz and the glam of trying out many people, from age of puberty -to 50+ and then these people were busy partying and now they are old and all alone. what a loss.

Re: With no offense to women

sorry sis...thats not "always "......

Re: With no offense to women

Men are not only responsible for women's troubles. Women are as well, because we allow this to happen.
These things--trafficking, violence, rape, etc, would not be possible if society at large were not so accepting of them. Just look at the laws of the land, and you'll see how the majority of people feel about such atrocities. In America, domestic violence is listed as a misdemeanor, whilst smoking marijuana, is a federal offence. Where are our priorities?
When men are taught not to respect women, they will abuse them. When women are taught that our men deserve more respect than us, then we allow the abuse to continue. It's a mentality that ultimately helps no one, because women remain opressed, and men remain selfish and ignornant of their own falsehoods.
This society is seeped in hedonism. Can you blame anyone who indulges in it? We're a product of our environment, and if no one has ever seen anything different, how would they know to change? Who would tell them to change? People who demand sexual morality, and true equality between the sexes are considered fringe groups.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a true feminist. But that doesn't mean I ignore obvious differences between men and women. Equal, but not the same. The current role of feminiism at large in the USA now, is to strip each person of their respective gender, and to impose a new, androgenous gender. This not only plays into the hands of greedy men who would exploit at will, it again harms our women because to be a woman, you would be spitting in the face of "femininism." The current role of feminism is to turn our women into men, and that is obviously not what feminism itself seeks to do. So when you see these promiscuous women, they're not sexually liberated, nor are they empowered. They are only servicing men who want them to believe in this delusion. Men, as well as women, are caught up in the same farce.

Re: With no offense to women

^ Well summed up.

I feel I know where the problem lies. (Though just my views, I might be wrong)

Men and women are two complicated creatures (for human minds) who were designed differently by the ultimate Lord. Now why do I call them complicated for human mind? Because from the time of birth of Adam (a.s) till now not a single human has been able to derive an ultimate formula for them, which might be suitable and applicable for all men and all women in all situations. Every human made formulas were full of flaws and injustice one way or the other.

^ The ultimate Lord knew this fact that men and women won't be able to invent a good rule for themselves as their knowledge is very limited about themselves, and "ONLY" the ultimate Lord HIMSELF knows EACH and EVERY ASPECT of both the genders. SO, the ultimate Lord sent HIS OWN "Formula" to Earth through the Prophets (saw) in the form of Holy Books and The teachings of the Prophets (a.s)

Now, no matter how much all the educated philosophers try they CAN NOT develop a better formula than what the ultimate Lord has VERY CLEARLY mentioned in the Holy Books (ofcourse in the orignal copies of the books)

So, better use the formula of Allah than trying to develop our own, because we know our "knowledge" and "wisdom" is "infinitly , infinitly , infinitly ......uptill infinity " times less than HIM, and life is too short to experiment our own ideas on the next generations and destroy them with it. So let us accept the "Ultimate formula" sooner or later.

Re: With no offense to women

stp, you are right, we cannot attain perfection in all situations, and for all beings, male or female, but those who are able to discern the difference, have no license to not actively live and promote the ethics of engaging with each other, even as strangers or legally wed people. may be that is what Allah wants to see, and that is why the ayet

“For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for patient men and women, for humble men and women, for charitable men and women, for fasting men and women, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise: for them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward.” (Quran 33:35)

dushwari

Re: With no offense to women

Sister, that is a good point. If I am able to understand what you intended to say, I would like to share few related aspects.

I remember a saying (It is either the words from Quran or a Hadith, but either of them)

Momin men and Momin women are helpers of each others.

Like during wars Momin women used to give water to injured na-mehram momin men, ( Kindly correct me if I am wrong) so according to the situation, if one's intentions are sincere and positive and if one doesn't cross the limits set by the ultimate Lord, the right step should be taken for the benefit of both genders.

Re: With no offense to women

MatineeSiren,

i agree with you.

what i was pointing out was that be it a liberal culture like all western countries, or a name sake strict culture like in SA, women are literally not able to work nor move alone in driving, there are layers upon layers of exploitation of women's ability to be autonomous.

i will be the first young female feminist who will shake up any woman who deliberately exposes her self or chooses a life of indignity.

i am not of the mind set like you that in order to gain rights, women must become men - NO. that is in fact the counter productive result which any right minded feminist will denounce and fight against.

God equipped us with the ability to have a child, including the male child.

so i find it hard to believe that same men, who women give birth to,
become the oppressors.

is it their nature, is it the social conditioning?
is it that good men, are afraid of bad men?
is it that bad men attract bad women ?
is it the culture and unjust traditions that none of the generational idiots ever woke up to break?
is it a sense of aloof ness, because what ever goes, is discounted as ' i see no evil, hear no evil'?
is every man and every woman so selfish that seeing suffering of others does not at all prick their conscience?
is is that bad women instigate and refresh the cycle of oppression of good women?
is it that bad women and bad men, comply in their vicious plans to destroy happy marriages of wed couples, by seducing them into adultery
?
and the gamut goes on and on....

the point is what can women do to educate other women to not suffer in silence, to not be victims of domestic violence, to feel empowered to raise good men, who know how to respect women

and make women comfortable in learning and seeking knowledge and in being strong and proactive equal partners in the social, economic, civic and spiritual spheres of a society.

at the end, who would not want to come home to a husband or a wife, to seek comfort and gain strength in the companion's presence and fortitude of resilient spirit.

issue for cultural and religious feminism, today is as following - that men as always, and now women too, to some extent have become and are becoming ever more lustful and that is short lived, and actually leave them with diseases and no long term solace.

how can we prevent mis interpretation of fighting for women's rights, from getting labeled that feminism is about mere sexual liberation. and religiously as well as biologically, women's sexual desires, within a legal wedlock are not deniable by anyone, in fact a woman can leave a man, if she finds him discomfort able.

if any thing, to fail men, women must take control of men, by completely making it clear by actions, thoughts and words, that no man, as na mherem can dare to come within an arm's distance from them. and this, in words, well meant - must suffice.

only then, feminism will have achieved what it set out to obtain.
distribution of domestic labor, and allowing compassion in wed lock, deciding about various social and even universal aspects of life in general - will come second.

first the pact has to be contracted on fair terms.

other issues for another time and discussion.

Re: With no offense to women

best explanation that can be given.....excellent...

Re: With no offense to women

What the......umm heera what planet are you from?

Re: With no offense to women

West is bad.

Now focus on the East.

Where people get away with throwing acid on their mistress's face.
Where enjoyind pederastry is as prevalent as teenage sex in West.
Where women are locked up in homes to preserve female "honor" while they die of curable diseases.
Where the value of a woman is low, and the burden of a woman is high.

Truly in the East women are expected to do more, but recieve less. And this is their state. The average Pakistani/Indian Muslim will blame the wife for a divorce, even if the husband was at fault.

The West gives women equal burden but also equal blame. The East gives women more burden, more blame, and less rights.

West > East
America >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pakistan