Fraudia,
Since our ‘learned’ friends here have spent so much time explaining that anything with origins in pagan or chritian rituals is har’am for muslims, and by referring to them we are ‘spreading falsehood’, so with regrads to your simple query, I leave it for your own goodself to come to the right conclusion.
Have a very nice day
[quote]
Originally posted by mm10:
**
Encyclopedia Britanica confirms that 25 December was pagan festival and not birthdate of Jesus (alaihe salam).
**
That shows that you are not aware what gheebat means. Go and look up somewhere.
**
You have evaded my question. I asked you to evidence you allegation that they are issuing fatwas and then issuin contradictory fatwas every day. Do you wish to wriggle out of this mistake? I believe you have to either apologise for your incorrect allegation, or come up with some evidence. This is correct procedure. You cannot say incorrect things and then go away when you are challenged.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
Factfinder…in other words you have no explanation for what I asked? Why can't you simply say that?
[/quote]
You have not understood my post. Forget it. Others will understand.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Encyclopedia Britanica confirms that 25 December was pagan festival and not birthdate of Jesus (alaihe salam).
So what! let them celebrate X-mas whenever they want, what does it make a difference to our “Imaan” if we felicitate them on thier festivals! I think U R too hard shelled to come out of it!
You have evaded my question. Do you wish to wriggle out of this mistake? I believe you have to either apologise for your incorrect allegation, or come up with some evidence. This is correct procedure. You cannot say incorrect things and then go away when you are challenged.
http://www.dawn-usa.com/pak/
Go to above link and you will find some live and fresh evidence.
Every one makes mistakes, so do you! none is perfect! I care for my Islamic values as much as you. Why should I take a forced obligation from you when I am disclosing truth
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
BTW Your attitude is very cynical and introverted ! Waslam!
**
[/QUOTE]
Ibrahim says; salaams to all
Hey Pristine,
Your replies shows lack of sincerity on your part which means you are Not Pristine in your character and that is indeed sad to note.
Instead of trying to prove, you could have a valid point in your assertions , you start another thread to belittle the remarks conveyed in this thread.
Not knowing that you simply do not have the wisdom to comprehend what has been conveyed by that scholar
I guess in your case “common sense is bound to speak too late.”
May Allah (swt) help you come to your senses soon.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Those things that hurt, INSTRUCT! **
Instead of attacking a person, focus on your argument. Your continued attempts to provoke are being noted. I started this thread, because some one pointed out that wishing non-muslims is forbidden. I consolidated their reasoning and the differing opinion (first post), and opened it for public debate.
In the subsequent debate, you guys came with your evidences and arguments. The other side, presented its point of view. In the end, I summarized your viewpoint in one paragraph. And left it to the readers to make up their mind on the issue. If you have a problem with the summary, speak up. If someone is not satisfied with that summary, they can read up the whole thread.
I didn't agree to the ruling, and I gave my own reasoning from the first post onwards, but that is not to say that I was trying to force-feed my opinion on others (unlike some other participants in this thread). If someone agrees to my reasoning, most welcome, if you don't, its your choice. I don't start accusations like "lack of integrity", "do not have the wisdom", "come to your senses soon" and other bakwas. We are not here to take lectures from you or anyone. We are here to share and debate, not try to act like a pompous ass.
That is how a debate is handled. We can not force someone to accept our point of view. Our aim is to provide them information. That we did.
In the middle, you needlessly engaged in character assasination, and when I specifically pointed out those instances, now you have avoided the issue and compounded with further baseless allegations.
As regards the other thread, it is on a different issue, though related to the discussion here. What have I said there which is incorrect? Have I misquoted the fatwa? And if you have a problem with the reasoning there, explain your answer in that thread, instead of acting so defensive.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:Instead of attacking a person, focus on your argument. Your continued attempts to provoke are being noted.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Pristine read you own words as to how you responded in this debate and who attacked who? .
Summary of Pristine’s rebuttals ( In italic)
[1] 1) The crux of your argument is that muslims should ditch the gregarian calendar and adopt the hijri calendar.*
Ibrahim says; I did not make the hijri the crux of my argument, my argument was based on the Qur’an and its revelations. And the verses I quoted was sufficient for any Muslim with some knowledge about Islam to refrain from participating in Christmas or new celebrations or wishing and greetings.
Ibrahim says: I stressed on the Qur’an and what Islam teaches and Pristine started preaching about what appeared in his mind. I did not make any comment of Muslims ending up in the abyss if they failed to follow my reasoning.
Ibrahim says: my first reply was too rigid for him according to him, which were based on the Qur’an, so that means the Qur’an was too rigid, that is indeed sad.
While I agree with you, on the point of spreading falsehood by celebrating christmas, I am still unable to gather whether any of you are indeed against using gregarian calender or not. *
Ibrahim says: After agreeing that Christmas was wrong, Pristine now switched to , what about new year ( which I already concluded was the same in nature in my first post itself)
Now the change of direction was towards using the Gregorian calendar and not about the new year anymore. Which I replied with evidence from various sources
Ibrahim says: now the question went back to new year again. Which I replied with evidence from various sources
Ibrahim says: even after providing the evidence , Pristine go backs to claim it has nothing to do with religion. So I had to provide more evidence which I did.
Ibrahim says: To my surprise Pristine started claiming I attacked him, smeared him, made noise etc as per above statements , for which I asked for proof and his answer was
a) exactly what you have come to believe, as to what the New years is
b) that is more due to lack of knowledge on your part as to its origin.
From the above statements , Pristine was able to conclude all that he had written, which does not need much to be said anymore by those who have sufficient wisdom to understand his ability to comprehend the words I had written.
Ibrahim says; Finally he claims this was his summary .
In short there is
1) No dispute that it is a money making operation
2) No dispute that it was proclaimed by Pope Gregory as a Holy Day.
3) No dispute it has pagan origins
So what was the debate for?
Except the claim by pristine that
Pristine wrote: “The current new year celebrations are merely a time to party and feast, and nothing religious”
Thus he has won the debate by making the above statements with his own invisible proofs and that is final and everyone have to accept it.
When I asked why feast and party on this day only, he slapped this on me
hence it is for sure he has declared I have lost and I have to admit he has shown great wisdom and provided great proofs for his assertions.
[quote]
I don't start accusations like "lack of integrity", "do not have the wisdom", "come to your senses soon" and other bakwas. We are not here to take lectures from you or anyone. We are here to share and debate, not try to act like a pompous ass.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Exactly, if you were sincere you would have accepted the very first post where I revealed the Qur’an and showed you that ** it amounted to concealing the TRUTH, aiding and abetting falsehood, ** instead you switched to whether using the Georgian calendar was an issue in Islam after words you went on to the new year should be acceptable and has NO religious connections, afterwards you started accusing me of attacking you. And finally you started a new thread trying to belittle a respected scholar and the participants of this thread who opposed your assertions.
[quote]
In the middle, you needlessly engaged in character assasination, and when I specifically pointed out those instances, now you have avoided the issue and compounded with further baseless allegations.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Amazing , you played ball and kept trying your luck without much success and finally started accusing me of what knots and after reading your reply as to how you concluded, I had attacked you , there was nothing more to say, since even a child would not be able to find such an attack in my response.
[quote]
As regards the other thread, it is on a different issue, though related to the discussion here. What have I said there which is incorrect? Have I misquoted the fatwa? And if you have a problem with the reasoning there, explain your answer in that thread, instead of acting so defensive
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Tell us what was wrong with this thread, that you were unable to raise that issue here? ** You decided to split that fatwa and raise an issue in a separate thread to belittle that scholar as well as those who responded in this thread instead of accepting the fact that you had nothing to stand upon other than your own words. and that is incorrect **
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Understanding is forever unattainable but it is the only quest worthy of serious attention**
I firmly believe in discussing each different issue separately, so as not to allow people from shifting focus when asked uncomfortable questions. That is why the issue of weekend is taken separately.
Contrary to what you apparently come here for, I don't come here to 'win' or 'lose' arguments. This is just a discussion board, where we come to share opinions, not to win converts. If someone agrees to an opinion, well and good. Otherwise to each his own. You, on the other hand, expect people to agree to your point of view, or else they 'lack wisdom' and what not.
So, now I am completely ignoring your smear campaign, and instead focus on your argument.
Initially the question was on christmas and new year. Both are claimed as a religious occasions. However, when some participants raised questions to origins of the calendar itself, so I asked why muslims the world over still use the gregarian calender? After all, based on your evidence, the calendar itself is based on non-muslim origins.
Then the discussion turned to greeting non-muslims, where you posted that greeting is similar to spreading the falsehood and helping and aiding the christian beliefs.
I took your answer on its face value and summarized the whole argument for everyone to read and make up their minds. That was all.
If someone agrees to this reasoning, they should stop greeting, and if someone feels the argument is weak they will go their merry way. Our purpose is complete. I wanted folks like you to present your argument. Your purpose was to present information. That done, now leave the topic for people to read and digest.
Why do you have to come in with an unwanted post, that since there is no "win" and "lose" in this discussion, so obviously the other person is not sincere and has no wisdom.
And now, since you are obviously disinclined to debate the weekend issue in its proper place, so here it is:
Regarding the other post, it was only later that I noticed the words "not to take time off" in the fatwa. That means, even if you take time off from work on the occassion of Christmas, you are helping the festivities and spreading falsehood. Is that incorrect?
So, explicitly the Maulana instructed his followers to work on christmas and treat it as a normal day. And implicitly he made it forbidden to take days off for non-muslim festivals or events or occassions surrounded with falsehood.
And just as you have shown from historical evidence that the holiday (or holy day) of December 25 is based on pagan rituals, then what about taking a holiday on Sunday, or Saturday? Is it based on Islamic evidence? If its not, and indeed it is based on some pre-historic pagan ritual or christian tradition or jewish sabbath, why do muslims take off from work? Shouldn't they be working on that day?
And if you still feel that the words of fatwa are incorrectly translated, then feel free to provide a rational explanation.
And this time focus on the arguments. Spare us the unwanted commentary on our intentions and wisdom.
dear FF I think and hope you might have got satisfaction now with my above reply!
Pristine,
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
When I returned to the office after the weekend of Dec 16, everyone in my office greeted me by saying "hope you had a wonderful eid". This is just politeness on their part, because they knew it was the end of our fasting month and we had our eid the day after that. All of them are christians or jews and I am sure they do not subscribe to islamic rulings or care for the history. Its just politeness. So if they are wishing us for our festivals, according to 4:86 (u just quoted above) what is our obligation?
[/quote]
.
It has been authentically narrated in Bukhaaree, that the Messenger of Allaah - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said that, a time will come when (members of) his Ummah (i.e. the Muslims) will follow the non-Muslims step-for-step, so that if a disbeliever was to crawl into a lizards hole, so would a Muslim.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
several years back I had discussed the issue with a learned scholar, and as per his suggestion, I now return the greeting by saying "Happy Holidays".
[/quote]
Might i ask the name of this scholar?
[quote]
I am not trying to portray anyone as naive here, but we all very well know, that the Islam which you and I follow is just one fraction of the whole muslim population, a very large fraction, it may be. Even in the Ahle-Sunnah Wal-Jammah, there are four eminent scholars, whose rulings on some issues are differnt, even though the sources are the same. Doesn't mean that any of the four are wrong, it simply means that being human beings we can come to different conclusions on the same problem. The simplest of actions, where to place the hands during sala'h is something where there are two different opinions.
[/quote]
Firstly, the differences you have mentioned here are differences in Usool al-fiqh (fundamentals of Jurisprudence) and not in Aqeedah (firm belief and recognition) which is the issue of this discussion.
Secondly, all four of the respected Imaams whom you have mentioned, based their judgement upon the understanding of the Companions as this is from the 'Aqeedah' of 'Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jam'aa', whom you have mentioned above. Some of them based their rulings with limited ahadeeth, while they all acknowledged and clearly declared that if there are shortcomings with regards to any of their verdicts, then leave their teachings and take the Sunnah. This Sunnah is precisely what the companions had been upon together with their understanding of the verses of the Qur'aan as they best understood from the tafseer (interpretation/explanation) of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
And the scholars who have used this methodology to acquire the most accurate understanding should be followed on any issue with regards to Islaam. We are not implying that they do not err, as you have so correctly pointed out, after all we are all human. But what we are saying here, is that becuase they base their judgment upon the correct methodology using the correct sources, without a doubt it shall be more accurate, particularly when there is ijma'aa (consensus) regarding an issue, as in this case.
[quote]
And if we cross-check from eminent ulema of shi'ites, their interpretation is again different on the same issue, and they trace their sources back the Prophet (SAWW) as well.
[/quote]
I'm surprised you make reference to a people who ridicule the "The Best of Mankind" - the Companions - while rejecting the Qur'aan, that you and i read, for its authenticity.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
You and I are sure we are right, but there are thousands, may be millions, who may not agree to that ruling.
[/quote]
Strength is not in numbers, strength is in understanding.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
What are you trying to say here? Just because you didn't agree to an opinion of a website, why do you doubt that all scholars are wrong?
[/quote]
You know exactly what i am saying. If you can prove to me that the 'edict' pertaining to the web link which you have provided is from a scholar who has extracted his judgement from the correct sources, then it may hold some esteem, otherwise it shall be as insignificant to some as the wing of a mosquito!
It's up to you if you wish to follow such writings, as you alone shall be questioned for your actions. However, when you share them with others (as in this thread), then it becomes a duty - bi itnillaah - to bring forth the truth ...
And the truth is only one and shall remain one. Why do you think there shall only be one Muslim group out of a numerous that will be granted entry into Paradise? "Those who are upon my Sunnah and the way of my Companions ..." are the successful people as the Messenger - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - explained.
It is up to you to be upon the way of the companions and find the truth for yourself.
We can only advise.
WasSalaam
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
It has been authentically narrated in Bukhaaree, that the Messenger of Allaah - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said that, a time will come when (members of) his Ummah (i.e. the Muslims) will follow the non-Muslims step-for-step, so that if a disbeliever was to crawl into a lizards hole, so would a Muslim.
[/quote]
Someone posted ayat 4:86, and thus my question was in relevance to that. Do u dispute 4:86 or do u consider a hadith superior to ayat 4:86? I am sure its neither of these, so I am unable to see the direction your response is going to.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
*Might i ask the name of this scholar? *
[/quote]
You can, but it won't help. He was the imam of the mosque in our community at that time. Not from some internet scholar and not someone with a long arabic name either.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
*Firstly, the differences you have mentioned here are differences in Usool al-fiqh (fundamentals of Jurisprudence) and not in Aqeedah (firm belief and recognition) which is the issue of this discussion. *
[/quote]
You had posted a long explanation of how a correct fatwa is reached, reading which we can infer that if a fatwa is reached in that way it become obligatory for us to study and consider. Given that my point was only that even learned scholars can differ with each other on issues, despite adopting similar tests and consulting the same sources. The ruling can be right or wrong, as only Allah knows, but to close the mind to a study of the matter is indeed unfortunate.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
*I'm surprised you make reference to a people who ridicule the "The Best of Mankind" - the Companions - while rejecting the Qur'aan, that you and i read, for its authenticity. *
[/quote]
Of all the people who call themselves muslim, in this world, more than 20% are shi'ites. Now you may consider them heretics or whatnot, the point was simply that their scholars have also done similar research on many issues, using similar sort of sources, i.e. Quran and sunnah, and came up with diametrically different points of view.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
*If you can prove to me that the 'edict' pertaining to the web link which you have provided is from a scholar who has extracted his judgement from the correct sources, then it may hold some esteem, otherwise it shall be as insignificant to some as the wing of a mosquito! *
[/quote]
You don't agree to the ruling is one thing. However, if you have doubts about the credentials of the scholar, feel free to communicate with him. Its a website and I am sure you can email him to find out the rationale for his opinion and his own level of intelligence. I didn't ask you to bring forth the credentials of the Maulana whose opinion you posted. Its a given that we all know what we are doing. And if the opinion is wrong, whether the maulana has a long arabic name or a short Pakistani name, doesn't make an iota of difference, does it?
In any case, thats just one opinion, on this issue, those who don't agree to it, should continue to follow the opinion they feel is accurate. Those who have problems with the opinion you posted, have similar freedom. Remember, there is no compulsion in deen. Right?
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
*And the truth is only one and shall remain one. Why do you think there shall only be one Muslim group out of a numerous that will be granted entry into Paradise? *
[/quote]
Well, its only Allah who knows the answer to this. Every single major sect amongst muslims insist that they are the true followers of Quran and sunnah. No one has monopoly over this title. So, since we have no way of knowing this one way or the other, before the Day of Judgement, so lets refrain from passing judgements over others and be more humble in our approach towards matters of knoweldge and deen.
salaam all,
I am sorry I have not the time to read all the posts and if i am repeating myself, then please consider this a reminder.
Imagine the Messenger of Allaah sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam walking down the road in Makkah. Along comes Abu Jahl adn the Messenger of Allaah sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam says: 'Happy Hubal Day, Happy Manat Day, Happy Uzza Day'! By Allaah in whose Hand is my soul that would totally and undoubtedly destroy the very essence of Muhammad sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam's Messengership. Ok people might argue that thatw as at a time of war, I would disagree thatere was no war in Makkah. Likewies,let us just say that it was war, Abu Bakr's khilafa- a time of tranquility at least- was not. So Abu Bakr comes out of his house sees a Jew who says: 'Shubb a khair'(good evening) and Abu Bakr replied 'shubb a Khair'. To you and me it might sound innocuous, but it is indeed very grave. The greeting was introduced when the Messenger of Allaah sallAllaaho alaihi wa sallam died. The news reached the Persians and they celebrated. All Muslims would be outraged at this greeting, so how much more outraged we should become when the greeting is against Allaah azza wajal's Might adn Majesty!
In India there is almost a festival a day adn all these commomorate a false deity adn shirk. Prisitine can you really see yourselve saying: 'Merry Krishna Day, or Merry Hanuman/ Ganesh Day'. I hope and pray not, as to me these are disgusting manifestation of total rebellion against Allaah azza wajal' Supremacy.
Let us look at Christmas. What does 'merry christmas' mean. If we understand this we would not reply. Translated it means 'Good tidings on the day that son of god was born! Can any Muslim really reciprocate this tiding, adn if he/she does understanding what they are saying are they really muslims? I hope I have added some good to this debate.
wa salaam
It is not a question of satisfaction. You have again evaded my points and questions. It is futile discussing with a person who does not stick to the point, and has no evidence to support his/her views.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Pristine 2 years ago you said the following in this thread:
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/001631.html
The question was:
And your reply was:
But now you in this thread are saying the following:
Kinda weird ain’t it.
You say one thing in one thread - over 2 years ago.
Yet there is a reversal of opinions, in another thread.
Can you explain that?
Ours is not to reason why;
Ours is but to do and die