Wishing Non-Muslims

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Salaam

[quote]
Originally posted by mm10:
When you respect other's religion, they come to your religion for more learning becoz of your tolerance, thats why Holy prophet practiced religion for 40 years before handing over Allah's message to common folk!
[/quote]

What we are failing to realise is that in order to respect and tolerate other religions, we do not need to feel obliged to wish them well for their festivals.

Respect and Tolerance comes from the understanding that we do not force anything upon a people and allow them to worship and practice their beliefs as long as they do not intefere with our worshiping of the Lord and practicing our Religion. Further, we do not insult and ridicule their religion, so that they do not do the same to ours.

That is in essence what respect and tolerance refers to in Islaam. It does not imply greeting someone on their special occasions.

&peace

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited January 06, 2002).]

22

[quote]
Originally posted by mm10:
How such simple things can affect the integrity of holy Islam,
[/quote]

They cannot. But joining in the festivities is like participating in the falsehood.

**
[quote]
why to have respect for thoes ulema when thier interest is vested in to thier personal gains instead of Islam by issuing such controversial fatwas!**
[/quote]

What do you mean by thier interest is vested in to thier personal gains the worst thing that a person can do to himself is to start disrespecting his elders and scholars without genuine reason. If you have a reason, please enlighten us otherwise repent fro what you have said.

**
[quote]
When you respect other's religion, they come to your religion for more learning becoz of your tolerance, thats why Holy prophet practiced religion for 40 years before handing over Allah's message to common folk!**
[/quote]

If you believe that by joining their festivities you will attract them, I pity your thinking.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

23

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
Really? "Equally" knowledgable scholars? Please would you like to share some of these scholars with us, so that we can investigate and determine whether they base their judgement upon the understanding of the companions and those who have learnt from them in the lineage of knowledge and understanding. I'm sure you will agree that the best understanding of the Deen is that of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anum - do you not?
[/quote]

Hasnain,

I am not trying to portray anyone as naive here, but we all very well know, that the Islam which you and I follow is just one fraction of the whole muslim population, a very large fraction, it may be. Even in the Ahle-Sunnah Wal-Jammah, there are four eminent scholars, whose rulings on some issues are differnt, even though the sources are the same. Doesn't mean that any of the four are wrong, it simply means that being human beings we can come to different conclusions on the same problem. The simplest of actions, where to place the hands during sala'h is something where there are two different opinions.

And if we cross-check from eminent ulema of shi'ites, their interpretation is again different on the same issue, and they trace their sources back the Prophet (SAWW) as well.

So, lets not argue on something which is so blantantly obvious, and nor is it the intention of this thread to start dissing muslim scholars.

Here we are talking about a simple issue, as to whether it is ok, to wish someone "Happy New Year". So lets no complicate the issue by dragging the scholars, sources of their knowledge, their lineage, their link to the companions, their elementary school and college, and what not.

While each of us have our preferred sources of knowledge and teachers, whom we'd like to follow at the exclusion of others, it is inappropriate, atleast in my opinion, to close the mind to the possibility of human mistakes. Something which all of us can fall for. You and I are sure we are right, but there are thousands, may be millions, who may not agree to that ruling.

[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:

After all, what can be more wrong than judging by the Qur'aan, and the Sunnah of the Messenger - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as understood and explained by the "Best of Mankind", namely the Companions - radhiAllaahu anum?
And what can be more wrong than taking from such scholars who base their assessment on exactly that?
[/quote]

What are you trying to say here? Just because you didn't agree to an opinion of a website, why do you doubt that all scholars are wrong?

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:

*I am sure you will agree such things are evil and cannot be encouraged in Islam. *
[/quote]

Thanks for the historical lessons, but as your own post signifies, the new year means different things to different cultures and religions and even the dates are different. The current new year celebrations are merely a time to party and feast, and nothing religious.

24

Pristine,
You have such wise and tolerant views expressed hear. I agree that it is about tolerance, respect, thoughtfulness and confidence in your own beliefs that should guide your well wishes to others. We should wish and pray for the best to all of mankind. It does not mean we bear witness to their faith when doing so.

25

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
Dear Hasnain

we do not need to feel obliged to wish them well for their festivals.<<

We really R not obliged, but being neighbourers you have at least responsibility to share thier sorrows or joys! You can put your limits as you determine,
I don’t know how would you teach your kids or keep them in westren enviornment by being kept them secretly on these occasions within the confines of your house!

Think it from a family point of view, Islam is very accomodating not rejecting!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

26

They cannot. But joining in the festivities is like participating in the falsehood.

dear FF what gives you arbitration that we R participating falsehood, may be you R lost in falsehood under the candle

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

What do you mean by thier interest is vested in to thier personal gains the worst thing that a person can do to himself is to start disrespecting his elders and scholars without genuine reason. If you have a reason, please enlighten us otherwise repent fro what you have said.

Looks like you r one of them or at least related to them closely

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

but thats not the point!
Its thier cumulative behaviour which has placed ppl more away from them, e.g these R the ppl (e.g Qazi hussain ahmad, fazalur rahman and leaders of the most religious parties ) who R issuing every day new fatwas contradicting previous one! they have ruined so many lives in the name of Jihad etc… but thats not the point and I do’nt want topic to be switched from the topic.

If you believe that by joining their festivities you will attract them, I pity your thinking.

You R most welcome for that

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

27

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine: Thanks for the historical lessons, but as your own post signifies, the new year means different things to different cultures and religions and even the dates are different. The current new year celebrations are merely a time to party and feast, and nothing religious.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Pristine , earlier you asked, if The new year that was created by the Christians and celebrated by them had any religious significance.

I already took the trouble to show you what were their ** "HOLY DAYS” ** which are currently known as ** “HOLIDAYS” ** as being religious in nature at the point of its origin.

You now seem to negate this and say “The current new year celebrations are merely a time to party and feast, and nothing religious” , that does not change the fact that it originated as a Christian holy day , which originates not from Christianity but from paganism, ** since it was and still is a practice of the Christians to assimilate and transform other religious practices as their own in order to keep the faith going . **

For your info, Christians today have their own institute ( Pontifical Institute for foreign missions) in the Vatican where they study the Qur’an, Arabic and Muslim culture and traditions. ** They are monitoring as well as poking and probing the Muslim community on the net as well as at grass root levels where Islam is weak and Muslims are needy. ** The NGO’s and humanitarian relief organizations acts as a cover for their operations.

** They do this in order to transform Islam ( as well as others that oppose their views) and corrupt it to suit their purpose of deceiving the future generations into believing , exactly what you have come to believe, as to what the New years is. **

The level they have gone to would be astounding for instance they are willing to set up mosques in rural communities and employ their own brain washed Imams who will be claiming Allah and Jesus are one and the same ( Nauzubillah) .

Their achievements are well known, you only need to identify why the “ahmedia’s” are preaching their deviated teachings to understand the effectiveness of their works.

Thus if you understood the Christian Holy day which is the current New Year day, as only a time to have fun and party, that is more due to lack of knowledge on your part as to its origin.

BTW, why would only this day be a time to party and feast, what happens on this day that made it such ? why not some other day?

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Direction is more important than speed. Look at the milestone, not just the speedometer **

28

Well, if your clinching argument is that my opinion here is heretic and developed under direction from the ... what was it ... Pontifical Institute for foreign missions then I can just express my express admiration for your wild imagination. This is the attitude, where I have severe reservations. That "I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong-and-you-lack-knowledge-and-are-deviated-because-of-a-huge-jewish-christian-conspiracy" way of debate is what turns people off. Lets skip the holier than thou mud-slinging in this thread, because trust me, not many people have patience for those, who have a superiority complex when it comes to matters of knowledge. It is only an empty pot which makes the loudest noise.

Just focus on the argument, instead of attacking one another, because no one is here to waste their time.

In your first post, you yourself equated the event of a new year as more of a money making occasion with firerackers and what not. And now you are spending your energies to convince us that since the origins of the day lie in pagan values, hence it is forbidden to wish people for that.

>>BTW, why would only this day be a time to party and feast, what happens on this day that made it such ? why not some other day?

Its the same argument, where some muslims stop others from celebrating melad in the month of Rabi al Awwal, saying, why do it on 12th, and not any other day? I don't think this argument is even worth debating. Its like clinching to the straws, when on the losing side.

And why bring unnecessary tangents in here to confuse the issue. Where did the issue of Ahmadis came into this debate?

After 1.5 pages of debate you and your friends' argument has changed many times and can be summarized as follows. From a money-making commercial event, it was moved to a christian religious occassion, and is now claimed as a pre-christianity pagan festival. The reasoning goes that if we wish someone for that, we are spreading falsehood.

Right?

Now, lets leave everyone to digest this argument, and make up their minds.

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited January 06, 2002).]

29

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**Thus if you understood the Christian Holy day which is the current New Year day, as only a time to have fun and party, that is more due to lack of knowledge on your part as to its origin.

BTW, why would only this day be a time to party and feast, what happens on this day that made it such ? why not some other day?
**
[/quote]

There is nothing "holy" nor "Christian" about 1 January, period.

Why party on this day? Actually the party is done on eve of 31 December when people (not for religious purposes), celebrate a new year, same as they celebrate birthdays.

25 December is purely a pagan holiday and presently a commercial tool, same as Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, etc.

30

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**Well, if your clinching argument is that my opinion here is heretic and developed under direction from the ... what was it ... Pontifical Institute for foreign missions then I can just express my express admiration for your wild imagination. This is the attitude, where I have severe reservations. That "I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong-and-you-lack-knowledge-and-are-deviated-because-of-a-huge-jewish-christian-conspiracy" way of debate is what turns people off. Lets skip the holier than thou mud-slinging in this thread, because trust me, not many people have patience for those, who have a superiority complex when it comes to matters of knowledge. It is only an empty pot which makes the loudest noise.

Just focus on the argument, instead of attacking one another, because no one is here to waste their time.**
[/quote]

I read Brother Ibrahim's post and did not find anything to support what you have written.

His post is mostly factual presentation of the present-day predicament where the Muslims have started adopting 'sunnah' of the west blindly. Before we follow a practice, we need to see the advantages or disadvantages. It is an established fact that the Christians adapted a pagan practice to show closeness to them. Now, are we right in afiliating with the same practices to show that there is little difference between them and us?

We need to see the objective that each one of us has in mind when he wishes someone on a non-Muslim occasion. If it is to show that there are very limited differences, then is that right? I think not. What we need to show is where Islam is a better religion. The Da'wa aspect is obligatory when we come in contact with non-Muslims. Alhumdo Lillah, this has been my practice, and I have no regrets.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

31

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
Well, if your clinching argument is that my opinion here is heretic and developed under direction from the ... what was it ... Pontifical Institute for foreign missions then I can just express my express admiration for your wild imagination.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Pristine, can you tell us how you came to this conclusion, Please, I will be looking forward to it.

[quote]
This is the attitude, where I have severe reservations. That "I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong-and-you-lack-knowledge-and-are-deviated-because-of-a-huge-jewish-christian-conspiracy" way of debate is what turns people off.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says’ this too?? Where have I written this or implied this? Let me know because it seems either, you have some pent up anger in you or your ability to comprehend is just lacking.

[quote]
Lets skip the holier than thou mud-slinging in this thread, because trust me, not many people have patience for those, who have a superiority complex when it comes to matters of knowledge. It is only an empty pot which makes the loudest noise.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: and you suppose I was making noise or is this noise being generated by you?

[quote]
Just focus on the argument, instead of attacking one another, because no one is here to waste their time.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is good, just let me know who attacked you? I am sure I did not, so it must have do with something in your ability to comprehend written matters. . All I have been doing is providing information that is vital for your growth and I went to the trouble of locating them and posting it on this forum, just for you .

[quote]
In your first post, you yourself equated the event of a new year as more of a money making occasion with firerackers and what not. And now you are spending your energies to convince us that since the origins of the day lie in pagan values, hence it is forbidden to wish people for that.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says I am wrong in both instances or does any one of it makes it any more meaningful to Muslims? Tell us, or did you forget to read this in my earlier reply.

*** Actually they are both, “false ceremonies” where people are led to do things which they will not otherwise do and founded on false foundations.** More a money making operation.** *

so by failing to stress that it also had pagan origins in this post , which I did in the next post, you have concluded that I am changing my tune?

[quote]
>>BTW, why would only this day be a time to party and feast, what happens on this day that made it such ? why not some other day?

Its the same argument, where some muslims stop others from celebrating melad in the month of Rabi al Awwal, saying, why do it on 12th, and not any other day? I don't think this argument is even worth debating. Its like clinching to the straws, when on the losing side.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: so it is your opinion that I am losing, by posing this question to you? What am I losing, please tell me?

[quote]
And why bring unnecessary tangents in here to confuse the issue. Where did the issue of Ahmadis came into this debate?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Do you really understand what I wrote, because, it seems pretty clear you were unable to.

Just so that you will be at ease of mind, what I have conveyed is that Christians are formulating a system whereby, they assimilate and transform existing religions into Christianity. ( which is how the Christmas and new year celebrations have been included into Christianity) In this manner they have been also working on Islam and that is how they have created the ahmadia sect, that was the gist of the info I provided to show you the Christian machinery at work.

I was under the impression you were seeking for knowledge , so I provide you with some of the techniques Christians are employing to assimilate other faiths into their folds.

[quote]
After 1.5 pages of debate you and your friends' argument has changed many times and can be summarized as follows. From a money-making commercial event, it was moved to a christian religious occassion, and is now claimed as a pre-christianity pagan festival.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: so you are under the impression none of this is applicable or are you stressing the point that everyone must serve you what they know at one go or else the point given later is invalid?

Or are you unable to understand it is because you have been disputing it, people will add more points to strengthen their assertions?

[quote]
The reasoning goes that if we wish someone for that, we are spreading falsehood. Right?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I think, I made this pretty clear from the beginning. (Please check 1st page, where you skipped this point to discuss the Gregorian calendar on my very first reply on this thread)

Let me repeat

** 1) Allah (swt) warned Muslims not to promote falsehood knowingly ( kindly read the verses I quoted)

2) As such if I wished anyone Merry Christmas or a happy new year, I would be promoting falsehood as I know for sure such celebrations are based on false notions. **

Are you telling us I have been changing this and was unable to make this clear in the 1.5 pages?

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** In a quarrel, TRUTH, is always LOST! **

32

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Hi Old man, should I wish you merry Christmas and a happy new year and throw works too

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Any way run your fingers down to the Encyclopedia Britannica web site or CD or Hard copy and look up “Holy days”.

You will find New Years Day as part of the Christian Holy Day .

I do have hard copies of Christian cannon laws and its revision but just do not have the time to run through it, to give you exact reference.

But I do agree with you that there is nothing holy about it.

Good luck.

33

This is quiet a debate, Pristine, I hope that this discussion goes well into the next new year. Thank you for entertainment.

Now here’s my little bit out of control wisdom: The reason Mohammad (PUBH) decided following lunar dating system is because Moon was worshiped by Pagans at the time of Mohammad. He wanted to show them that he respected their ways of spirituality. In fact, this tells us that how accommodating the early Islam was (compared to today’s Islam). My question is to those who are saying that New Year is a Pagan holiday, how did the Lunar calendar came into Islam? Was it or not a Pagan tradition?

34

I believe this has been handled. Christmas and New Year are false dates set up by Christians based on pagan festivities. If you do not agree, there is a problem.

**

In this portion you have made two allegations and then stated “but thats not the point”. I am dealing with both of them.

Yes, I am their brother in deen.

You have named some people, which is gheebat, for which you are responsible.

Then you have stated that they are “issuing every day new fatwas contradicting previous one”. Can you substantiate this allegation?

**PS : I shall appreciate your using the quote function or clearly separating what you are quoting and what you are stating. For clarity, I have put your statements in italics.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

35

I believe this has been handled. Christmas and New Year are false dates set up by Christians based on pagan festivities. If you do not agree, there is a problem.

**

In this portion you have made two allegations and then stated “but thats not the point”. I am dealing with both of them.

Yes, I am their brother in deen.

You have named some people, which is gheebat, for which you are responsible.

Then you have stated that they are “issuing every day new fatwas contradicting previous one”. Can you substantiate this allegation?

PS : I shall appreciate your using the quote function or clearly separating what you are quoting and what you are stating. For clarity, I have put your statements in italics.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

36

[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
**This is quiet a debate, Pristine, I hope that this discussion goes well into the next new year. Thank you for entertainment.

Now here’s my little bit out of control wisdom: The reason Mohammad (PUBH) decided following lunar dating system is because Moon was worshiped by Pagans at the time of Mohammad. He wanted to show them that he respected their ways of spirituality. In fact, this tells us that how accommodating the early Islam was (compared to today’s Islam). My question is to those who are saying that New Year is a Pagan holiday, how did the Lunar calendar came into Islam? Was it or not a Pagan tradition?**
[/quote]

I believe your post is the most comical of the lot. LOL.

The statement "The reason Mohammad (PUBH) decided following lunar dating system is because Moon was worshiped by Pagans at the time of Mohammad" shows your lack of understanding or misguidance. Do you know what is divine revelation? Do you know that the pagans also worshipped the sun?

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

37

Factfinder…in other words you have no explanation for what I asked? Why can't you simply say that?

38

[QUOTE]

I believe this has been handled. Christmas and New Year are false dates set up by Christians based on pagan festivities. If you do not agree, there is a problem.

Be brief and let me know how R these false dates and how they affect Islam??

In this portion you have made two allegations and then stated “but thats not the point”. I am dealing with both of them.

Yes, I am their brother in deen.

You have named some people, which is gheebat, for which you are responsible.

I think you R also doing the same then I mean “Gheebat of other’s religion”
I just did(actually I did’nt) of some personalities according to you
Then you have stated that they are

“issuing every day new fatwas contradicting previous one”. Can you substantiate this allegation?

Jamat Islami was the one against the creation of Pakistan e.g and now it bent on enforcing its interpretation of Islam all over the country. Same with other religious demagogues, who want thier Islam but not what “Islam is all about.”

Tell me one incident where all these ppl have sat together and formed one Islamic party for ppl’s guidance. All we se is more shawls, fat and puffiness around thier necks, may be also around you

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

Take it easy! Will like to hear from you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

39

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**
- Pristine, can you tell us how you came to this conclusion, Please, I will be looking forward to it.
- this too?? Where have I written this or implied this?
- just let me know who attacked you? I am sure I did not, so it must have do with something in your ability to comprehend written matters.

**
[/quote]

Now, we are definitely wasting time. In any case, here are the excerpts from your own previous post

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:

  • and corrupt it to suit their purpose of deceiving the future generations into believing , exactly what you have come to believe, as to what the New years is

  • if you understood the Christian Holy day which is the current New Year day, as only a time to have fun and party, that is more due to lack of knowledge on your part as to its origin.

[/quote]

Anyway, I have summed up your entire argument, developed over multiple posts, in my last paragraph earlier. If you have no problem with the summary, then I believe the purpose of this debate is over, and now we can let everyone make up their minds as to the strength of your argument.

[quote]
Originally posted by Fact Finder:

*We need to see the objective that each one of us has in mind when he wishes someone on a non-Muslim occasion. If it is to show that there are very limited differences, then is that right? *

[/quote]

Personally I disagree on both points. Its no more a religious holiday, notwithstanding its origins. And to wish them does not mean that 'there are very limited differences', but rather a polite way of communicating, just the same way they greet us on the occassion of Eid and Fasting. Or we say "hope you have fun on the weekend". I am sure the weekend on Saturday and Sunday must have some pagan-jewish-christian origin behind it, and based on your logic, it must be har'am to greet anyone as such. Right?

[quote]
Originally posted by Fact Finder:

The Da'wa aspect is obligatory when we come in contact with non-Muslims. Alhumdo Lillah, this has been my practice, and I have no regrets.

[/quote]

Good for you.

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited January 07, 2002).]

40

ummm what about chinese new years and iranian No-Roz.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

anyways, Pristine…when i use the gregoriam calendar for my everyday work..amd I committing a sin

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

everytime I write my birthdate on any form I am committing a sin since I am not writing so and so date in rabee al sani but so and so date in August?

Just wanted to know.