why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

[Seminole]

Men have ruled throughout history because of their superior physical strength and aggressiveness, not because of any alleged superior leadership skillls. In uneducated or unenlightened societies - just like in the animal kingdom - these physical attributes dictates who rules.

In spite of a world ruled by man, where laws, religion, culture and history have been made to keep men in power, we still have had dynamic women leaders in history such as Nefertiti, Sammuramat, Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Queen Isabella, Catherine the Great, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth, Catherine the Great, Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Susan B. Anthony, Benazir Bhutto and Margaret Thatcher.

[psyah]

Re: why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

^ Nefertiti was shadowed by her husband and when he died, she was under pressure by Amun the High Priest.

Shammuramat was legacy like Nefertiti who took over after her husbands death.

Cleopatra's land came to a bitter take over

Joan of Arc was burnt at stake

Queen Isabella was coregent with her husband ... part of a bitter campaign to persecute non Catholics.

Catherine too was known for a shady character she could have been complicit in her own husbands assassination and obviously took rule by default.

Queen Victoria - she came to the throne by default and she was not technically in a rulership role. And there are a few stories about her too relationships and being unwelcoming to the public and so on.

Queen Elizabeth I - depended heavily on a council to support her rulership and get her appointed. Later she became fairly stern and harsh and never got married ... she was not known for charm and good character but for her iron fist. She also went a bit wayward towards the end of her life.

Catherine the Great we've talked about already

Golda Meir - Iron Lady

Indira Ghandi - So many things 'great' was not one of them ... she got killed

Benazir, Maggie - not too different from above ...

Susan B. Anthony - yeah a good example

How about Mother Teresa, Aisha (RA)?

You see Seminole women are subject to too much scrutiny and then when they assume leadership most of them think they aught to rule like dictators because MEN are like that. They end up looking harsh and cold instead of noble and pragmatic and definitely not charming.

Why force them to be what they are not? Let them assume leadership in areas that support their femininity!

[Seminole]

You folks sure do go through a lot of trouble to find fault in women. I don't understand if its a man's insecurity in his himself, his religoin or his culture to try to define women as nothing more than charming and feminine concubines for men to rule. All religous and political affairs are areas that women can lead to support femininty.

As women are treated more like equals - and not precious jewels that men stash away for themselves - there will be more and more great female leaders. Leaders that may one day decide that men are not fit to lead.

[diwana]

Re: why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

Dude seminole is living in a different planet than what is called earth.

He has one agenda to oppose everything blindly which is near Pakistani or Islamic.

In his blindness he has forgotten to open his eyes to the truth.

In this world of almost 5 billion population, men as well as women have defined their roles over thousands if not millions or billions of years.

Man has his role and woman has her.

Just to be 'fashionable to oppose what a Pakistani or a muslim says' one can go in length to argue but eventually in his/her mind will realize the fact that there are so many things men are better to lead.

(And even gays will prefer real men to lead them since they will look for strong figure people to lead and not sissy or **wuzz **to lead them)

[omairhr]

Men have ruled throughout history because of their superior physical strength and aggressiveness, not because of any alleged superior leadership skillls. In uneducated or unenlightened societies - just like in the animal kingdom - these physical attributes dictates who rules.

In spite of a world ruled by man, where laws, religion, culture and history have been made to keep men in power, we still have had dynamic women leaders in history such as Nefertiti, Sammuramat, Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Queen Isabella, Catherine the Great, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth, Catherine the Great, Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Susan B. Anthony, Benazir Bhutto and Margaret Thatcher.

What is the proportion of female leaders in the world?

'Discrimination' against women has been a historical fact. If God wanted men and women to be 'equal' He (i am sorry, but that's how the history presented God as a male) wouldn't have bothered with two different genders. It is not that one gender is superior to other, but its just that they are made for different roles in the society and that's how Islam perceives it.

If you are talking about discrimination, its predominantly in the west where e.g. women have to live with a man(men) for months before the male finally decides that he 'might' want to get married to this woman and look at the joy she gets when he finally 'proposes'. Or, you might want to look at the fashion culture... the women have to dress up to look 'good' to men and not necessarily feel good about that (when they complain of harassment).

[Seminole]

Dude seminole is living in a different planet than what is called earth.

He has one agenda to oppose everything blindly which is near Pakistani or Islamic.

In his blindness he has forgotten to open his eyes to the truth.

What do you know of my 'agenda'? Because I object to the discrimination of women means I am blindy against everythign Pakistani and Islamic? That is ridiculous. That would mean that most of the world, including human rights organizations also hold that opinion just to be against Islam. Don't flatter yourself, you aren't that important to become part of my agenda.

My eyes are open to the truth. I am not the one blindly following religous principles which are based on old cultual principles.

[quote]
In this world of almost 5 billion population, men as well as women have defined their roles over thousands if not millions or billions of years.

Man has his role and woman has her.
[/quote]
Actually the population is almost 7 billion, and when one suggests man may have existed for billions of years, it is obvious he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Roles have changed as society has changed. And if man did exist millions or billions of years ago, who is to say that men led all that time? There would be no proof. And as someone posted, women were leaders in ancient agricultural societies, so all of history was not male dominated.

But men are more aggressive, selfish, obstinate and prone to violence, so as we began to urbanize, market and fight each other, they became the leaders.
[quote]
Just to be 'fashionable to oppose what a Pakistani or a muslim says' one can go in length to argue but eventually in his/her mind will realize the fact that there are so many things men are better to lead.

(And even gays will prefer real men to lead them since they will look for strong figure people to lead and not sissy or **wuzz **to lead them)
[/quote]

I don't base my views on opposition to Pakistani or Islamic views, that doesn't enter the equation. The Catholic Church also holds archaic positions on women clergy.

The only reason men have led is because they have always led. they have controlled history. Man refers to God as "he" because men wrote the religous texts. The domination of men is ending and thank God. They have done nothing but used their testosterone to fight one war after another. They even incorporated war into their religous texts. Women will be the leaders of the future and I know they will be more kind to men they men have been to women throughout history.

[hareem01]

Re: why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

How are you Seminole?

[SindSagar]

In Sura An Nisa (women) ayat 28 : Allah would make burden light for , for man was created weak:

Read the above ayat again and again, man was created weak he is telling woman not woman but man was created weak. Do not listen to does mullah in masjid the ingnorated ones they are fools, I challenged any Imam where Allah has said something like this about women.

**You are deliberately forgetting one very important fact..................

Eve/Woman was born/created from the rib of Adam............

What you are referring to is a general statement for MANKIND.....not just MAN.

Humanity can not go on without either Men or Women.........in the Family of Man each is a wing without which Humanity cannot FLY!
**

[hareem01]

Re: why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

People are confusing leading the prayer by women with women rulers.

[Kid_A]

I am sorry if you mentioned it somewhere and I missed reading it, but before I reply to your post, I need to know the name of the planet to which the above statement holds true.

Most probably I didn't understand the context of the above statement. Would you kindly elaborate ?

It's called earth.

People use genitalia to define whether a person is a "man" or a "woman." And based on just that fact, they are given certain qualities that they MUST have. That is just wrong. You cannot judge a person based on whether they have a penis or not. Gender shouldn't be a reason to decide whether a person can do something or not.

Furthermore, the fact is that there are people born with both male and female genitalia, so what group do you put them in? Or are they from a different planet?
Their existence proves that this is not a reliable way of determining gender. And as I said gender itself is unreliable in determining what people can and cannot do.

There are men who display more "feminine" characteristics than women themselves. And there are women who are more "masculine" than a lot of men.

Sex/gender is not much more but a stereotype, and it shouldn't be given any importance.

Oh and since humans live on earth, this holds true on this planet. Unless you show me otherwise.

[psyah]

It's called earth.

People use genitalia to define whether a person is a "man" or a "woman." And based on just that fact, they are given certain qualities that they MUST have. That is just wrong. You cannot judge a person based on whether they have a penis or not. Gender shouldn't be a reason to decide whether a person can do something or not.

Furthermore, the fact is that there are people born with both male and female genitalia, so what group do you put them in? Or are they from a different planet? Their existence proves that this is not a reliable way of determining gender. And as I said gender itself is unreliable in determining what people can and cannot do.

There are men who display more "feminine" characteristics than women themselves. And there are women who are more "masculine" than a lot of men.

Sex/gender is not much more but a stereotype, and it shouldn't be given any importance.

Oh and since humans live on earth, this holds true on this planet. Unless you show me otherwise.

Peace Kid A

You are more or less right, but you see that is it ..... Those very women who exhibit more masculinity or at least Alpha Male Machoism are the ones who become leaders, not the majority of women who exhibit 'femininity'.

[Kid_A]

Peace Kid A

You are more or less right, but you see that is it ..... Those very women who exhibit more masculinity or at least Alpha Male Machoism are the ones who become leaders, not the majority of women who exhibit 'femininity'.

It's questionable whether the majority of women actually are "feminine" or whether that is just a stereotype dreamed up and actually enforced by society.

But either way, my post was addressed to someone who said that women can't do certain things because they are women. I think my argument proves that wrong.

Everyone should be judged individually, not by what group they belong to.

[Niksik]

please note that no offence to any gender or creed by posting my threads

everything is changing women proved in most fields that they are as compatible as men. they showed their talent and leadership in the form of fatimah jinnah, margaret thatcher , Indra ghandhi , golda meyer, koria akino Bandra Naikay and konda lisa rice etc. In church they accepted woman as priest but in our muslim society women are still as it was was.

what do you think why and why not they should be Imams. Please share your views with us

Desi ji, being an Imam usually involves having to run a masjid and lead prayers. Imagine a woman having to take a 7-10 day break every month, and if she has a child, go on a 40 day break. This means that the masjid would have to arrange for another person to replace her during those times. These days it's hard enough to find one Imam let alone assistants. Trust me I know because we have been looking for one for our local masjid here since July.

So I think that that is just one practical reason why women are perhaps not considered for that role.

Women have many strengths and we have come a long way. We are leaders in the corporate world, business owners, politicians, etc. Somethings are best left alone, I guess.

[MatineeSiren]

Peace Kid A

You are more or less right, but you see that is it ..... Those very women who exhibit more masculinity or at least Alpha Male Machoism are the ones who become leaders, not the majority of women who exhibit 'femininity'.

Femininity is a socially reinforced gender role that has no basis in biology. We have observed time and time again that reinforcing this gender role on women to be sweet, passive, demure, not aggressive, etc has very severe repercussions, especially in cases of rape and violence against women. If women were socialized to be as strong and self sufficient as men, we wouldn't see these problems.

[psyah]

Femininity is a socially reinforced gender role that has no basis in biology. We have observed time and time again that reinforcing this gender role on women to be sweet, passive, demure, not aggressive, etc has very severe repercussions, especially in cases of rape and violence against women. If women were socialized to be as strong and self sufficient as men, we wouldn't see these problems.

Peace MatineeSiren

Had your assertion above been correct then we would see a pattern in the number of women subjected to violence by males in history and a systematic decrease in those figures for the present day, because today women are arguably 'more socialized to be as strong as men' ... instead we see the opposite in the trends.

When women demand or are led to demand an equality with men, then men will offload on to them the same brute equality they give each other. Like not offering them a seat on the bus, not respecting them due to their womanhood and so on. Women are harmed not because they are unequal in society, but because society has bred a people who no longer insist that women should be protected, but rather that women should seek to protect themselves.

In the past a woman would walk with her mehram and he would ward off the evil of potential harm. Today she 'does not need that protection' because she is 'equal' and hence you get more crimes against women.

Whilst we are training women to be stronger we are also training men to not give a damn about women ... if you want women to be treated nicely by men, then you need to stop bringing yourselves down to our level, and leave yourselves on the lofty places that you were made to be on.

[jaanaan]

Allah (swt) knows better than us the respective capabilities and responsibilities of men and women. Why Allah didn't select even a single woman out of the 124000 prophets (as) He sent for the guidance of humanity to different parts of the world ? Because they have better leadership qualities to guide general public.

Btw Budha, Raam, Guru nanak....etc. and major leaders of most religions were men.

How many religions do you know the founder of which were women ?

Woman are good leaders for woman, but not for both men and women together. In addition there are other fields in which women are more capable then men. For example, in bringing up a child, taking care of household activities...etc..even other fields of life but NOT in becoming Imam of men.

so if asked for a rational answer, all you can muster is "Allah knows better"?
what kind of scientific study proves that Women are not good leader? and what were those women in leadership positions doing if they were not leading "general public"?

[Submission_To_Peace]

Rational answer might be easier to find by reading all posts of a person and not just picking on only one post.

"those" "these" and "that" might not be very helpful in convincing people unless names are provided along with the proofs that help in understanding that women are better leader than men. Let us prove our point through practical examples that woman can become a better Imam / leader of a "nation" as compared to men. Ofcourse there are examples in the History equal to few drops in an ocean. Let us see if you mention them instead of "those" and "these". Please mention the examples where women were founder of a religion or were chosen by merit by general public and did not get recognition through nepotism (benazir, indra ghandi...etc.).

Let me repeat myself.

@Submission_To_Peace

Some high claims but no names.

As I mentioned before when we talk of small organizations or head of a family, the difference of gender might not matter a lot. But I have yet to see mentioning of names of any** leader / founder of a religion, leader of a nation*....etc. when we say that people of one gender can be **relatively a better* Imam / leader than people of another gender.

[Seminole]

Re: why woman is not allowed to become Imam (leader)

Men have dominated women throughout modern history. It is absurd to use an example of male domination (women have not been allowed to be leaders) to "prove" men are better leaders. All that proves is that man are better oppressors and oppression should not be confused with leadership.

[jaanaan]

Desi ji, being an Imam usually involves having to run a masjid and lead prayers. Imagine a woman having to take a 7-10 day break every month, and if she has a child, go on a 40 day break. This means that the masjid would have to arrange for another person to replace her during those times. These days it's hard enough to find one Imam let alone assistants. Trust me I know because we have been looking for one for our local masjid here since July.

So I think that that is just one practical reason why women are perhaps not considered for that role.

Women have many strengths and we have come a long way. We are leaders in the corporate world, business owners, politicians, etc. Somethings are best left alone, I guess.

well they are able to take part in the day to day affairs of the state. they work at many other responsible positions. so i dont see why this should be different.

even if that argument is taken to be valid, why would people be against them leading prayers once. i am not talking about a whole month. but just once.

[psyah]

Men have dominated women throughout modern history. It is absurd to use an example of male domination (women have not been allowed to be leaders) to "prove" men are better leaders. All that proves is that man are better oppressors and oppression should not be confused with leadership.

Peace Seminole

But it was you who cherry picked a selection of names from our history of women leaders, not that they were necessarily "great" ... but you did it in your attempt to prove a point that women 'can' lead.

In this post you seem to renounce using history to support this view now as it was male dominated ... if it was male 'dominated' then how did those women come to power?

If 'men' allowed them to come to power then were those women 'great' or was it just another display of male 'domination' be it in disguise?

Then your argument fails substance. If the women leaders are just leaders not necessarily 'great' and then you argue that history cannot be used anyway ... then what basis is there for 'great women leaders' from your argument?