why we always consider ourself inferior

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1

i have seen people getting impresses by west and trying to act like they are white yes i will quote the word white here because (edited) never act like one they have their own identity and way of talking it’s only us not indians only pakistanis
some people like ---- said soem where that a uk born paki girl marry a NATIVE PAKISTANI that really hurt me and i decided to write this i want your veiws is n’t this the shame we are from pakistan and that is why we are here at this site
please let me know your veiws
thanx

[Note: This message was edited by Muzna]

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A couple of points I’d like to make:

Regarding the marriage of a UK bred Pakistani girl to a native Pakistani. In the UK we currently have a divorce rate amongst Pakistanis that is increasing dramatically. Though specific staistics have not been published the figure is likely to be very high. Marriage between UK bred Pakistanis and native Pakistanis are failing and below is my explanation.

Native Pakistanis have been brought up in a society with a particular set of values that differ fundamentally with those of the UK. Here we have a different mindset and we ought to acknowledge that. A native Pakistani will have a mysogynistic perspective and this affects the relationship.

It is common for native Pakistanis when they arrive here in the UK to be unemployed. Their command of English is poor and they are unable to find employment in established companies. Indeed UK bred Pakistanis have to struggle to gain employment and progress in their careers. Consequently the wife who can speak fluent English and is better qualified and able to work ends up working. You then have a situation where the wife works while the husband stays at home.

Now given the mentality of the native Pakistani husband he wants to be in control yet he doesn’t work while his wife does. He wants to order his wife around yet she pays the bills. You can imagine the friction and stress in such a relationship.

The fact of the matter is that when a UK bred Pakistani girl gets married to a native Pakistani the relationship often suffers.

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt any feelings but I’m telling it like it is. I don’t want to cause offense to native Pakistanis. We are both Pakistanis but we do have differing value systems and sometimes they clash.

For more info on Pakistani culture in the UK have a look at:

Now moving on to your comment about Blacks. I take offense to the word nigger when used in your context. Pakistanis in the UK do have their own unique culture, we even have a tendancy to add the word “in it” at the end of each sentence something no one else does.
I don’t think we try to be white, perhaps your misinterpreting.

Farouq Taj.

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Farouq Bhai well said, i feel that your understanding of the differences between Western Raised Pakistanis and Pakistan Raised Pakistanis is quite accurate.
Even down south the situation is much the same, you marry someone from Pakistan, call them over get them settled and then life becomes hell for the western person.
OH WELL - What Can Be Done?

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I utterly agree with u guys we've got differences between western raised (Not so) Pakis. and the original Pakis. who brought up in Pakistan and I agree there are people in Pakistan who are fascinated with the glamour of the west like u do or your roots but Question is Why these western raised people go to Pakistan and IMPORT Husbands or wives for their wards? I'vent gotta a clue.

Yet Farooq is not pointing out the fact that the majority of the Pakis here in UK are Cornershop (haven't u heard "Brimful of Asha") owners who themselves were never educated and don't even want their kids to be (same old 60s thinking still persists),
who do everything when they are out n teache their kids that white women are WHORE and many more......
Its beyond my comprehension that even after knowing that enormous differences in our cultures exists, they still are importing in spouses for their kids and natural failure is to be blame on a Pakistani guy, most of the time.

Btw, Farooq if u call passing gcse, A-levels or working in a petrol p/p or living on a DOLE a STRUGGLE then I'm sorry its not.

There are many like these in Pak. who are being frowned by the likes of you.
Cheers,
Kaleem

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KKNIAZI:

The issues you’ve raised are addressed at my web site. I don’t want to repeat the entire site contents here. If your interested go to the site below:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9391/culture.htm

If you have specific questions about the content of the site I’m happy to discuss them here.

I didn’t understand your last paragraph please rephrase it so that I can address any issues you may have.

Farouq Taj.

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It was in connection with the para before.

And 'd go to your site soonest, not getting much of time these days yaar, wrapping up everything.
See ya,
Kaleem

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MR FAROUQE, YOU'VE GOT A PROFESSIONAL WAY OF HANDLING SITUATIONS AND I LIKE THAT.YOU DID AN EXCELLENT JOB IN EXPLAINING YOUR POINT. YOU DID NOT HURT SHEZI'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.
MR SHEZI, YOU'VE ALSO GOT A POINT, AND I UNDERSTAND YOU DID YOUR BEST TO MAKE THAT POINT CLEAR AND I SHOULD SAY YOU DID QUITE WELL. BUT YOU SEE, THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS OF LOOKING AT A SAME THING. I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT YOUR TOPIC WITH THE EYES OF MR FAROUQUE.ITS GOOD THAT YOU BRING UP POINTS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND.IN THIS WAY YOU AND I BOTH HAVE ACHIEVED SOME THING.YOU HAVE A GOOD DAY NOW 'CUZ I'VE GOTTA GO.

[This message has been edited by Enterprise.]

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i dont understand why a perso born in the UK will call himself a Pakistani. Because your parents were Pakistanis. so what! you are not at all a Pakistani if you are not born over there. why dont you call yourself a british ,damn it. and leave us pakis alone. we dont want to marry these walayti chics if it were not due to economics.Hi! Goras dont give a damn to you either so who will marry you poor souls. Chuchchuchchuch

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I noticed something, the topic was.. why do pakistanis have inferiority complexes etc, the whole uk-raised and paki-raised desi stuff started again :)

well now, I would not disagree that many Pakistanis raised abroad are quiet western in their ways, however ina differnet posting on this site, some people were asking why do, Pakistanis born n Raised in Pakistan, lose their upbringing and engage in all sorts of stuff once theya re in Uk or USA.

Umm again, and why is it that People in Pakistan who have spent like 3 months abroad for vacation in there life hafta speak urdu with such pain as if it was an eskimo tourist trying to learn basic urdu.

As far as the Impression that Uk/USA born pakistanis are ummm not so islamic. Isnt that quiet possible that the pakistanis in Pakistan dont have the freedom to do what they want, and that is why they go all out when they come here :)

Then again, how many serious islamic groups have young people's active participation in Pakistan vs Uk n USa :)

The comment that why do we call ourselves Pakistani when we are born in Uk and wer should call ourselves british? oh I do, i indeed call myself a brit.. but a pakistani-brit :)and its nuffin new, in USA u have strong communities of Italian-americans German-americands and Irish-americans, so we are not the only ppl who do that... Then again being born at a place does not give u the right to call yourself a native does it? case in point children of "mohajirs" who are still called "mohajirs" and not pakistanis cuz ppl keep askin em, u punjabi or baluchi :)

anyways. to each his own.

btw why is it that the only ppl who complain about lack of opportunities for ppl with brown skin in UK?USA are ppl who have either real bad educational background or those who went to really lame schools?

Never saw some ox-bridge desi or Ivy league desi crying :0 its always the Pakistani BA pass in economics who are crying that Uncle Sam or Gora Saab will not make them product manager of GE or BT :)any answers.

Best Regards

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Well I would start off with the Inferiority issue. If you are judjing someone by their behaviour, there are two perspectives :
-that of the observer : you see it as an inferiority complex
-that of the subject : he/she "might" only be trying to mix up well with the culture.
Tell me one thing, why do we not notice the so called "inferiority complex" in people who have been born and raised outside Pakistan. It is only with those who are trying to make their mark from a zero within a society which has been alien to them for long. However there still are people who are proud of their heritage and who don't compromise their identity for a worldly objective. Take this for example, I know someone who on being offered a job at a firm, mainly managed by Jews, shortened their name to reflect a more western and even non-discriminatory from the point of religion so that they may have a better opportunity to excel. Contrary to this a peron named Muhammad also got employed by the firm. He does face difficulties when he comes across those breed who discriminate but is still surviving, and is totally opposed to going from Mohammad to Moe, as suggested to him by his superiors. I have seen many Bilals to Billy too, not for fun's sake but it is these people who seem to be ashamed of what they are!

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Well...it is interesting to read views from both ends. A person being raised in west can hardly adjust with the one from desi land (oof wo paindoos...hum gora hota :))and the desi (so called narrow minded & authority loving) guys lcan hardlly tolerate half nude pakistani kurries in a bar.

The question is how do we define Pakistanies. Well...I guess we don't have to...becasue some of us feel proud being called "Brit-Paki"
Isn't this ironic...doesn't this beat the whole purpose of the conversation...
If some Afghani in Peshawar calls him self I'm not Afghani but Paki-Afghani...well there goes the individuality, self esteem, traditions, culture and what not of Afghanistan.
African Americans are a good example of the disaster of rich African culture.

"Sup man! hey isn't rap Kool... yo! dem folks don't care bat no tradiitions...we gat our own shit goin on here"

Peace!
BoSS

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WELL SAID BOSS!!
BUT I REALLY HAVE NVER HEARD ANY ONE CALLING HIMSELF PAKI-AFGHANI AND IN CASE IF THEY DO THAT DOES N'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE HERE BRO BECASUE AFGHNISTAN IS AN UNOFFICIAL PROVINCE OF PAKISTAN YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT WHO ARE TALIBANS?? WHERE DID THEY COMNE FROM??
THEY ARE ALL PAKI STUDENTS .

WELL I CAN N'T TOLERATE HALF NUDE PAKI GALS IN PUBS EITHER AND THATS A GOOD ISSUE AND MAY BE WE CAN DISCUSS IT .I FIND IT REALLY ANNOYING WHEN YOU GO OUT TO SOME PUB OR PARTY AND SEE PAKI GALS BEHAVING IN AN INDECENT MANNER .
YEAH THAT'S A GOOD ISSUE AND I NEED COMMENTS FROM ALL OF YOU ABOUT IT . OBSERVING PARDAH IS SOEMTHING ELSE AND IF YOU DO N'T OBSERVE IT THATS NOT A VERY BIG PROBLEM BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOME THING ESLE .WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT OR WHAT SHOULD BE DONE .?

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As long as there are Punjabi-Pakistanbis Sindhi-Pakistanis Mohajer-pkaistanis etc there is no shame in being a brit-pak :)

Rap Aint Mah thang mah man, :)

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Farouq:

In your post you said that Pakistani men are mysoginists. Do your believe that ALL of them are? How does it happen to them? Can one tell right away that they are? Most of the Pakistani men I have met have been extremely nice and deferential to me, so I guess I don't know how a mysoginist acts. With American men who hate women it is pretty easy to tell, but that is my culture.

I am thinking about marrying a Pakistani man and I am American. I think we face many of the same problems that Pakistani men marrying UK born Pakistanis wiell. I will always make more money than he, etc.

I wonder if most couples even talk about it before getting married? Does anyone have any advice on how to ameliorate the problems that you folks have addressed in this forum?

I wonder if any of you are old enough to even be married? It seems as those most folks here are mostly college aged, yes?

See ya!

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Well...Fraudz...the last thing I wanted to hear from you was that there is yet another category of Pakistanies....

Well....if there are punjabi pakistanies, sindi pakistanies.... then we should be holding hands together and educating them about being ONE pakistanies rather than adding to the list. Ofcourse there are differences but they should not come in the way of unity and "identity".

Vision, i hope Mr pakistani is the right man for you :)A friend of mine just got engaged to an American girl in my university...and tell you what.... we spent hours talking about his future... plus the obvious differences or facts which exist.

Well.... we are human beings first and then come other significant details....If you think you guys possess good understanding and can cope with the society then I would call you the luckiest lady around. Good Luck!

BoSS

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Vision:

[quote]
"In your post you said that Pakistani men are mysoginists. Do your believe that ALL of them are?
[/quote]

I did qualify my statement by saying that native Pakistani men are mysoginists. In my experience every Pakistani brought up in Pakistan has held such views. However I am willing to accept that not all Pakistani men in Pakistan are. After all in a nation of roughly 140 million there must be exceptions.

[quote]
"How does it happen to them? Can one tell right away that they are? Most of the Pakistani men I have met have been extremely nice and deferential to me, so I guess I don't know how a mysoginist acts. With American men who hate women it is pretty easy to tell, but that is my culture."
[/quote]

I believe that the very ethos of Pakistani society places men above women. The birth of a daughter is a time for commisserations whilst that of a son is celebrated. Pakistani sweets are distributed on the birth of a son and a sheep is sacrified. For a girl few families will distribute any sweets let alone perform a sacrifice. This and many other facets of native Pakistani culture must be a significant factor in the shaping of men's views regarding women.

Your comment about Pakistani men. Perhaps they have all been genuinely warm hearted and caring men. If I knew how to differentiate between men that are deceitful and those that are truthful I'm sure I could make a fortune advising women.

[quote]
"I wonder if most couples even talk about it before getting married? Does anyone have any advice on how to ameliorate the problems that you folks have addressed in this forum?"
[/quote]

It is very unusual for Pakistani couples to talk before they get married. I assume the marriage your considering is not an arranged one. In which case I think you ought to know each others views on a range of topics including attitudes towards women.

I'm not sure how you could avoid or ameliorate the potential problems. I'd be interested to hear from someone who has been in such a position.

[quote]
"I wonder if any of you are old enough to even be married?"
[/quote]

My wife is a UK born Pakistani and we have one child. My views are based on the experiences of many couples that I know. I'm sure there are other married participants here but I share your view that most are still at college.

Let us know how things go and the best of luck in your decisions.

Farouq Taj.

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Identity? :)

How can pakistanis claim to have a united identy outside the country when they dont even have a halfway united identy in the homeland :)

oh well. My motto is.. Muslims are not bound by a land, the world has been given to us :)

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Coo.l man :)

I wonder why Pakistan came into being???

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THanks for the thoughtful reply, Forouq.

You said your wife is UK Pakistani. Are you a Pakistan-bread Pakistani?

Yeah, you're right, no one has all the answers. If they did I'd pay alot for them!

No, our marriage is not arranged. Who would arange for their son to marry a "whore"? Which is, I believe, the general view of women from the West like me. As someone in this forum pointed out.

I think his family genuinely likes me, though, and they seem to think I am a good match. I am going to work for a development agency that elder brother is involved in and he is the one who offered me the job and suggested I come to Pakistan.

I'll let you know how it goes. Too bad I won't have email or internet access in Gilgit, where I will be eventually living.

Maybe I am getting too personal for this forum?

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Boss

as much as i love the country, i wonder about it sometimes too, specially after reading the papers

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif