Why Science fails to explain God ---Plz read this!!

I know this is long but you’ve got to read this..

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Why Science fails to explain God
“Professing to be wise, they became fools…”

Many had a field day about how this article was written by a Christian and all muslims did was substitute the word “Christian” with “Muslim” & “Bible” with “Quran”. Yes they did and even a 7 yr old can figure that out - so what?
The moral of the story is about atheism versus God-consciousness and both Christianity and Islam fall united in the second category.

And please be reminded, this is a JOKE - a funny way of looking at the issue of atheism. Islam is more supportive of modern science than against it.

“LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God.” The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

“You’re a Muslim, aren’t you, son?”

“Yes, sir.”

“So you believe in God?”

“Absolutely.”

“Is God good?”

“Sure! God’s good.”

“Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?”

“Yes.”

“Are you good or evil?”

“The Koran says I’m evil.” (Webmaster’s note: Please be aware that whoever wrote this article was probably confusing the Christian notion of the ORIGINAL sin with Islamic belief. There is no such thing as the original sin in Islam. We are born innocent. The Quran says that man by nature is weak and impatient but steadfastness to Islam would make him the ‘noblest of all creatures’ and elevate him from his weak and impatient nature. Being evil is not necessarily being weak and impatient and vice-versa.)

The professor grins knowingly.“Ahh! THE KORAN!” He considers for a moment.

"Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? “Would you try?”

“Yes sir, I would.”

“So you’re good…!”

“I wouldn’t say that.”

“Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could… in fact most of us would if we could… God doesn’t.”

[No answer.]

“He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?”

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic.

“No, you can’t, can you?” He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.

“Let’s start again, young fella. - Is God good?”

“Er… Yes.”

“Is Satan good?”

“No.”

“Where does Satan come from?” The student falters.

“From… God…”

“That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he?”

The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience.

"I think we’re going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."He turns back to the Muslim.

“Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? Did God make everything?”

“Yes.”

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world?Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. “Yes.”

"Who created them? "

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student.

“WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!”

The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim’s face. In a still small voice: “God created all evil, didn’t He, son?”

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

“Tell me,” he continues, “How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?” The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. “All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture,all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn’t it,young man?”

[No answer]

“Don’t you see it all over the place? Huh?” Pause. “Don’t you?” The professor leans into the student’s face again and whispers, “Is God good?”

[No answer]

“Do you believe in God,son?”

The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. “Yes, professor. I do.”

The old man shakes his head sadly.

"Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you? "

“No, sir. I’ve never seen Him.”

“Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your God?”

“No, sir. I have not.”

“Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God…in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?”

[No answer]

“Answer me, please.”

“No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.”

“You’re AFRAID… you haven’t?”

“No, sir.”

“Yet you still believe in him?”

“…yes…”

“That takes FAITH!” The professor smiles sagely at the underling.

“According to the rules of empirical,testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?”

[The student doesn’t answer]

“Sit down, please.” The Muslim sits…Defeated.

Another Muslim raises his hand.

“Professor, may I address the class?” The professor turns and smiles.

“Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering.” The Muslim looks around the room.

“Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I’ve got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?”

“Yes,” the professor replies. “There’s heat.”

“Is there such a thing as cold?”

“Yes, son, there’s cold too.”

“No, sir, there isn’t.”

The professor’s grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Muslim continues. “You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.”

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

“Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?”

“That’s a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn’t darkness? What are you getting at…?”

“So you say there is such a thing as darkness?”

“Yes…”

"You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you…give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.

This will indeed be a good semester. “Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?”

“Yes,professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error…”

The professor goes toxic. “Flawed…? How dare you…!”

“Sir, may I explain what I mean?” The class is all ears.

“Explain… oh, explain…” The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

“You are working on the premise of duality,” the Muslim explains. “That for example there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it.” The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it.

“Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?”

“Of course there is, now look…”

“Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?” The Muslim pauses.

“Isn’t evil the absence of good?” The professor’s face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Muslim continues.

"If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Koran tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."The professor bridles.

“As a philosophical scientist, I don’t view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable.”

"I would have thought that the absence of God’s moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going,"the Muslim replies.

“Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?”

“If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.”

“Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?” The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

“Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?”

“I’ll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?” the professor hisses.

“So you don’t accept God’s moral code to do what is righteous?”

“I believe in what is - that’s science!”

“Ahh! SCIENCE!” the student’s face splits into a grin.

“Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed…”

“SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?” the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room.

“Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?” The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor.

“Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain… felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain?” No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly.

“It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor’s brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain!!”

The class is in chaos. The Muslim sits…

Because that is what a chair is for

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ahaa.gif

very interesting ... however, i admit, substituting it with islam did make it a lill corny



Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota

thanx for sharin it

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

HK. Nice job. You found another article in which is altered to fit your needs.

This article I've seen before in a text, in which it was about Christians students. I've seen it many other places, only the Internet have I seen this article altered to make it for Muslims, and this is obvious since it's so easy to change electronic text, a simple "FIND-REPLACE" command in your word processor can do the trick.

Now that you have openly made JOKES about Atheism. Perhaps, I should take a run around a Jewish forum and pick up some nice Islamic jokes. I'm sure you will be fond of those.

Anyhow, this is besides the point. I want to analyze the very article you found so hilarious.

In the article the student says something about the professors brain. The professor can't prove he has a brain, because it can't be measured with the human senses. (The student says)

Well, if you think SCIENCE is all developed by the only means of Human senses, you're obviously not a scientist. We all have RESONANT frequency which is emitted from our bodies, we have EMF waves that emitt from our bodies, which CAN BE MEASURED using simple instruments as Digital Multi Meters. So for the brain issue, YES he can PROVE IT. EVERYONE can PROVE IT.

BUT you can't prove GOD with any means. What means can you PROVE GOD EXISTS? If you show me a way, I will promise you I will convert to Islam.

Show me, a Multimeter that does that, a telescope, a microscope that can prove GOD exists.

This article also uses that it was a PHILOSOPHY professor. Not a Scientist, a philosopohy professor, does his thinking on rationality, what makes sense, and what could make sense. He will obviously not know the details of the science workings.
Such as the fact made by the student about the Absence of Heat is cold, which is indeed correct. Many people, even theists think Heat and Cold are two distinct things. So, I don't see how that relates to anything. And yes, HEAT can be MEASURED. It is measured, using Mercury tubes, Oxygen tools as well, and is defined by Freezing and Boiling points as a ground of reference to cold and heat.

I was hoping you would find another article that could do a better job disproving Atheism. I've seen some that actually had me wonder if God exists. This one just makes me think Theists have no concept of science whatsoever, and the last point about the professors brain proves that Theists have no idea what Atheism is.

An Atheistic Philosophy professor tends to be VERY RARE also. Philosophy has concept of Science, but it BORROWS concept of alot of faith, which make it hard for a Philosopher to be an Atheist. I know Philosophy well in the case of perennial problems, as I am doing a DOUBLE MAJOR prohgramme in Bio-Electrical Engineering and Philosophy. Philosopher's tend to look at the world in a "What If" situation, no philosopher denies the concept of God, but no philsopher denies the concept of non-existence in God either. That is where I come in. I find until now God is non-existant until proven otherwise. So far, no proof therefore I don't reason to change my thinking, until it is proven.

Arai

In addition to my last message.

Human senses can pick up EMF waves, and Resonant Frequency waves. However, they're minuute for us to realize the experience. Animals, such as Dogs and others can pick up on these frequencies. It's just that the bandwidths in our frequency demodulators aren't as broad. That is why we use scientific tools such as Multimeters to detect this.

Why delete my message ?

All I said was that Arai always misses the point. He/She always brings up non revelant and stupid remarks.

thats all

[This message has been edited by Pakistani-NotPaki (edited November 12, 2000).]

Pakistani-NotPaki,

Watch it. Offensive language and insultive remarks are neither appreciated nor tolerated on this forum.

What about the ones that arai makes about Islam and muslims in general ?

Why is he/she tolarated while me saying re**rd is forhibited ?

Pakistani-NotPaki

Your message was edited not deleted.

You are entitled to your own opinion. But remember that you are also required to respect the right of others to believe what it is they wish to believe.

arai, give it up okay...
your blind faith in science is very alarming...even i learned in high school that science is not the TRUTH, merely hypothesis and theories, ONLY math is logical..blah blah blah..im not going to rewrite my entire essay on logic for you. You keep bringing up the fact that since no one can SEE God, He's not worth believing in. Yet, does science make you SEE everything? And what about all the laws of nature and science, who put them in place?? ur telling me they were a mere coincidence too, just like human existence? well thats just too sad.

HK.

Yes, you may not want to admit it. But, the universe did instantaneously erupt from a cosmic explosion of matter. There is proof of this in science, known as the Red Dwarf Theory. We actually can pinpoint where exactly the universe BEGAN. And how it is expanding, and the RATE at which it is expanding. And the truth of the matter is, we're not that far from the core of the universe.

Why is it not acceptable to ACCEPT that everything occured on it's own? Everything EVOLVED. Life on Earth was mere microbio-organisms, in turn are just mere composites of elements that are constituent with energy, to become life. Humans are just the MORE COMPLEX forms of this. Science can explain everything, from how we remember things, our "soul" if you may, speech, learning ability, genetic mutation, disease, sickness, psychological effects. Everything is stated by science, and science always proves to be correct. Science is NEVER INCORRECT. A law can't be a law, without experimentation, and reduplication of results. God, simply can't be part of Science, since it is MADE UP. The basis of God is only known through these ancient books, where WE GUESS these people MAY have contacted with GOD. Keyword is MAY, and WE GUESS. We don't know, we never been to heaven, or hell. We simply take their word for it, you've never seen GOD with your own eyes, how can you believe he is there? And, how do you know there is just ONE or there is MANY? How can you also prove the Q'uran is the ONLY TRUE BOOK. How can you really prove this? You have many books outthere that compete with your Q'uran. WHy are tehy false and yours is correct? Fore what reason? Because a person who claims to be "illiterate" wrote the book, with the essence it was the word of God?

Perhaps, I should write a book right now, claim I am illiterate.. and who knows, maybe in 2000 years.. I will be revered as a prophet.. How fun that would be!! And this magical book, I will make it compulsory for everyone to donate $5 every month, to anyone who has the name of Arai..

Pakistani-NotPaki.

The words, you can say. The threats you can make. They serve no purpose. The more you speak, the more I laugh, and the more I come to generalize people when I don't like to do such a thing. It is the best interest of the moderators to have you not make a fool of yourself, or the rest of the Muslims I find more respectable and tolerable on this, such as HK, whom is giving up in our conversation, yet makes still very interesting remarks.

I am here, just to chat, to point out controversial subjects, in return to get good remarks and answers, without hatred, but with education and PERSONAL opinion. If I wanted to find proof of anything, I can always goto a library and read about it. I am here to get OPINIONS, and PERSONAL OPINIONS, not URL's of sites which many people here tend to do. They seem not to have minds of their own, they just either like cut and pasting, or provide links, many of them don't even read the very own post they make. I find it much more educated, when someone can express their own view and point, instead of esssentiallly borrowing someone else's idea. This just shows me the person has no real mind of it's own, and no true opinion.

Arai

Scientists once believed that is was the positively charged elements that flowed across an electric wire, and later changed that to negatively charged electrons.

Why must we assume that evil is the absence of good, as opposed to believing that good is really the absence of evil?

Arai....

** Everything is stated by science, and science always proves to be correct. Science is NEVER INCORRECT....**

really ????... wasn't there a time when the greatest minds in the scientific world thought the Earth was flat ??... and for how long did scientists believe that the sun revolved around the earth and NOT vice-versa ?.And for how long did scientists believe that the Atom was the smallest object in the physical world.. they then cracked it open and found a whole host of shit inside !. for a time most of these were actually considered LAW.

Granted that as time passed, these scientific theories were corrected, but the point is that scientific theories are based on the evidence available at that time. If later on 20-30 years or so, if new evidence comes to light then the thories are changed to accomodate the evidence, no matter how strong people have believd in them. Even today some of the greatest minds in science are changing the way they percieve the Universe. Dr Stephen Hawkins himself wrote many scientific papers while at university and then later on in life wrote material which Disproved everything he had previoulsy written !. So I guess my point is that Scientific theory is NOT carved in stone.. what we may consider correct today may one day be proven to be in-correct.

OK now as far as God and Science is concerned, (by the way I'm not here to prove to you why you should believe in the existence of God.. that is something you will have to search out yourself and it is also something you have to be willing to search for... Belief in God cannot be based on someone else's evidence or arguments... you have to find the answers for yourself)..

I personally believe that Science will Never be able to prove the exitence of God... Why ?? because God is beyond science !. Science and scientific theories are a property of this Universe. So the argument goes that if God created this Universe.. he must be outside of it !..

If you're into Pottery, you can make a clay pot... you can intercat with the pot (ie pick it up.. drop it.. break it and mend it)... but you are NOT a part of the pot !. The same holds true for anything else man creates. If you've built it then surely you have to be seperate/outside of whatever you've built.

Even today ALL the laws of physics break down beyond the Event Horizon of a Black Hole (forgive me if you're not into Astronomy). So it begs the question, if today, Science cannot even explain the behaviour of something within the boundary of this Universe..how can it explain that which is BEYOND this universe ??.

So looking towards science to prove/disprove the existence of God is like trying to see a mountain with a microscope !.

Hope you didn't find any of this offensive... Just debating, not trying to convert anyone or push my beliefs onto anyone !.


Death is only the Beginning.

Interesting and good arguements you present.

I would first like to reply to the comment made about "positive charged electrons", no such scientist made such a conclusion ever. The conclusion that was made was of the POSITRON. The Electron itself was not even known. The Electron was NEVER thought to be positive.

You might not know that, the signs given to these charges are just used for reference. They are not physical attributes to the charge itself. For example, in a Electrical circuit. There is no definite saying that electrons flow from positive to negative. They can flow the opposite way, and make no difference to the circuit. I hope you understand what I am referring to. The signs given to these elements are used as a ground of refernece. Anything left of 0, is negative, and greater is positive.

As for the comments made by someone referring to scientists believed that the SUN revolved around the Earth. You again have mistaken Scientists with Theists. It was the theists who said that, the world was terracentric, because they believed that God created earth with importance than of the Sun. GALILEO GALEI was the first to PROVE TO THE CHURCH that THE CHURCH WAS FALSE. HE WAS A MARTYR for that cause (church says he was exiled, in my opinion he was executed). He is the one who disproved the church , and proved the Earth revolves around the Earth. Never give such credit that Galileo deserves to such theist. He is the one who reformed the rennaisnace, and paved the way for scientists such as Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler,
and Einstein.
As for the Earth being flat. This is yet another claim not made by scientists. This was made by the Royalty and Kings and Churches of the time, who tried to disprove Columbu's theory of the world being spherical. There is no such proof a Doctoral of Science has ever made a claim that the earth was flat. The horizonanous theory was discovered in Aristotle and Socrates time, and even they knew that the Earth had curvature. Only some people would risk to believe it , because they felt they would be ridiculed. You've twisted all the theist claims and theories and say Scientists are responsible for it. Any scientist that makes such a ridiculous claim must have been one of those fake scientists such as the Creationists.. Or Creationism, whatever excuse they use to incoorparate science with religion.

You believe in these character(s) thinking they MAY exist. You have no solid proof yourself that they do, except for ancient stories. Back then, man was quite primitive to his knowledge of his sorroundings, and many natural events that occur now, even such as lightning back then was interpreted as signals from heaven. Although, they're simply just electrical flucations between clouds.

It's just a shame, in our lifetime, we won't see how far science will excel to prove to humans now that they're simply wasting their time reading fictional books.

arai

Dude - Benjamin Franklin clearly thought it was positive charges that were travelling along the line, not negative charges - so much so that Kirchoff's laws are run in reverse from positive to negative (and though the math turns out to have the same result), the fact is that most electronics applications suffer from this anachronism - we speak of "hole flow", postive to negative is the direction of holes, whereas negative to positive is the direction of electrons to fill those holes.

Must we forget that whole work and heat aren't equivalent forms of energy fiasco? That heat was thought to be an invisible fluid called "caloric" that flowed from hot bodies to cold bodies?

Or what about when biologists thought that proteins carried the genetic code of life, and not DNA, because DNA had only 4 base pairs?

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited November 13, 2000).]

Your reference to “holes” is misleading. Electrical flow doesn’t work with “holes”. You are referring to transistors, in Electrical Physics, the acceptor, and the donator bandwidths in an element. These “holes” are found in transitors and various electrical elements, as well as capacitors, and elements that control the flow of electrical current (when a capacitor is fulled charged, is when it’s acceptor bands are completed, and just create a resistacne/impedance between the two conducting plates). They have no realtion in which current is moved. Current is only conceived through Voltage pressure on both ends of any connecting nodes in a circuit (similar to water pressure). The pressure in the nodes determine which way the current flows, not the SIGNS (which obeys Kirchoff’s First Voltage and Current laws, ie; KVL, KCL). In University, they will teach you the first thing that the direction of current flow either from positive to negative, or the vica versa is not important, as long as the flow is kept consistently througout the circuit (ie; for any current or voltage source, you can take the current in any direction). For example, you can’t go one direction, and in another branch (for example in a parallel RLC circuit), to suddenly reverse the direction of current without basis.
ie; current entering a node, is equal to the sum of the current leaving a node.
you can’t suddenly have. Current entering a node, is equal to current of one node, minus the other node. This doesn’t make sense.

Anyhow, besides Electrical Engineering

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

Since, this way off topic. However, I felt the need to clarify your confusion with Doped/Undoped Transistors and in capictors with electrical flow, since if you do happen to take electrical or bio-electrical engineering somewhere, I wouldn’t want you to make this common mistake on an exam!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

Anyhow.. Back on the subject. I find Science more appealing, and that it provides more answers than holy books. Holy books to me seem like dictators of your life, and really you’re following these dictators not realizing that you’re not sure, whether these dictators will actually give you everything they promise.

Arai

Arai >>
.. I find Science more appealing, and that it provides more answers than holy books.
... and really you're following these dictators not realizing that you're not sure, whether these dictators will actually give you everything they promise.

I can't speak for anyone else but as far as I'm concerned, I believe 100% in whats been
written in our Holy book (the Holy Quran). You reffer to it as Dictating the way we should live our lives. Well, personally, if God, who created me, tells me that I should live my life in a particular way, then who am I to argue with him ?. It stands to reason that the creator of an object knows more about it than the object itself.

Faith isn't based on the kind of evidence you are looking for. If you want some kind of mathematical formula or theory of Physics to prove that God exists... then you'll never find it.. because that would not be called faith !.

The bottom line is that, it is just as difficult for those who have faith, to explain to you why they believe in what they believe, as it is for you to believe in something which cannot be explained by science. Someone who has total conviction in science cannot accept the existence of God, because God is not bound by the laws of cause & effect.


Death is only the Beginning.

[This message has been edited by Arch-Angel (edited November 14, 2000).]

this is so sad..even scientists themselves dont claim the infallibility of science. Like everything else, we obviously dont agreee on this one.

[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 14, 2000).]

Science is nothing but a human obervations...and the big problem with human brain is that it works with references. It can not think about entirely new thing at once, but think with reference after analysis of something related that new thing first. Thats why man first invented tyre, then bicycle, then car ..... and now space shuttle; he did't invented space suttle very first day. Thus it means man is just going through some learning process and science is only an other name for this learning process. And I belive every one agree with me that this space suttle is not something final, nobody knows what man is to discover and invent next.....its just a start of our learning process.(and God is perhaps the last topic of this learning process)

In simple words what I try to say is; if one could never believe in one universal power(GOD) we cant also believe in science too because it is nothing by itself, but our observations and analyisis. Who knows scintific theories and laws on which we belive its true, next generation laugh on it.

Science have told us nothing yet. Once scince believer asked me while chating; 'How could u explain your believe that God is not born/created by any one and cant be terminated and has not only control over every thing but claims to have realtime info about every living and nonliving things in universe. How its possible?'. My answer to him was 'The same science u believe in explains a thing called Energy. Properties of Energy energy explained by same science is, it can not be created or destroyed. (we can only change its form cant destroy even a single particle of it) If it could be a property of energy than why there is confusion about God. Moreover energy is present in every living and nonliving thing, infact everything is due to that so called energy thing. Imagine if energy has sences and is inteluact....it has info about each and everything, atleast on this universe.'

And if someone is serious to find out if there is God or not, My friendly sugession to him/her is, please do read Quran at once(if not as Holly book ok, read it as a story book) along with Science. You will find many new things. Its my personal experience.

(Please note I'm not saying Energy is God or someting equalent to Him, absolutely not.)

I respect your thoughts completely. Obviously faith wouldn’t be faith, if we had to prove it. Faith is made up on trust, not needing to even prove whether it exists or not, but relying on the trust. I know what you’re saying completely.

However, I find it difficult in my daily life, to commit to something I truly believe is not there, because it has never EVER presented itself to me, even when I try reading the books, I don’t see what you’re all seeing, and no miracles in my life have ocured in a manner in which I was not involved or responsible for. I walk around, I philosophize on the existence of God all the time, asking myself “What If”, and each time I ask myself, I find myself looking back at science to prove my own What If’s. I am quite convinced that all can be explained by science. You would also have to understand my position.
I grew up in an Atheist family.
Both my parents are Engineers, and my dad is a phd.
My external family is also educated heavily in science.
I am studying in the field of science
And I also grew up with communistic beliefs.
Yes, I admit I am biased. Who knows, if I were to grow up differently, perhaps in an THEIST enviroment, I would be all on your side, argueing witih soneone like me. But, the fact of the matter is. The way I grew allowed me to ASK questions, not to just ACCEPT what is given, but to ASK, and CHALLENGE the question. Many theists simply can’t explain why things are what they are and just say “That’s the way God made it”, or “God works in mysterious ways”, etc. That isn’t answernig anything.. That is RUNNING away. I learned not to live like that, I was an annoying student to my teachers also, cuz my hand would be up every 10 min or so, trying to PROVE the teacher wrong, even if the TEACHER is CLEARLY CORRECT, I would look for ways AROUND teh theory, or challenge it, even if it’s a well-respected theory for many years (such as the Karnaugh method in solving Boolean algebraic equations)…

I simply CHALLENGE almost everything. I am a keen debater, and I think it makes us all much more intelligent, when we focus or challenge things that we’re new to (for me, God), and to learn from being sometimes proven wrong, or sometimes being right, or making some sort of point.

I find it tiresome to continue this debate, because I think we can all agree that it is just gonna go in an endless cycle. I am gonna say “God doesn’t exist”, and you’ll reply “God Does exist”, and this will just happen on and on, until one of the moderators finallly stops it

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Arai