true rvikz. very true.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Dear Sweetpie, first you claimed logic, now you talk of context and base.
Well, pls do me a favor. Enlighten me with the context and on base theory of following…..
When I open Quran, exactly the second chapter verse 6 and 7 confuse me. Here Allah has sealed the mind and hearts of the disbelievers, so they do not listen. And further Allah sends them to hell for the same disabilities.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps if you read farther you wouldnt be so consistently obtuse.
[Ruum 30:58] And indeed We have illustrated all kinds of examples in this Qur’an for mankind; and indeed if you bring a sign to them, the disbelievers will say, “You are upon nothing but falsehood.”
[Ruum 30:59] This is how Allah sets seal upon the hearts of the ignorant.
Surah 40, the believer
And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come: At length, when he died, ye said: 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,-
- "(Such) as dispute about the Signs of Allah, without any authority that hath reached them, grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of Allah and of the Believers. Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant and obstinate Transgressors."
But yet, theres hope..
Surah 6, Ayat 46
Say: 'Tell me: If Allah took away your hearing and your sight and set a seal upon your hearts, could any god but Allah restore them to you? See how We make plain to them Our revelations. And yet they turn away.
Ravageji, you are convincing your self.
Saby is very correct that every Ayat has a background. In fact every Ayat was a need of the time in political and religious carrier of the inventor. I do not know how much God was really involved.
Mr Changez, I respect your sentiments, thought calling someone deaf and dumb is very abusive and I do not use uncultured vocabulary in my circle.
By the way as usual this thread has also entered into Islam vs anti Islam. Wherever we start, by a Christian topic or a Hindu one, the dead end is always in one corner.
Cannot Muslims have a little patience?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Ravageji, you are convincing your self.
[/QUOTE]
what the eff is that supposed to mean? you ran out of arguments and came up with the first pointless drivel that came to your head?
how am i convincing myself, pray tell.
[QUOTE]
Saby is very correct that every Ayat has a background. In fact every Ayat was a need of the time in political and religious carrier of the inventor. I do not know how much God was really involved.
[/QUOTE]
and this is cultured? walking into a group of Muslims and calling their Prophet an 'inventor'? You're not expressing opinion here, you're stating fact. You really need to learn to argue your point intelligently.
[QUOTE]
By the way as usual this thread has also entered into Islam vs anti Islam. Wherever we start, by a Christian topic or a Hindu one, the dead end is always in one corner.
Cannot Muslims have a little patience?
[/QUOTE]
I quote
[QUOTE]
What do you mean by that no one can create something alike Quran? Why one should do it?
Pls tell me why Quran has so much hatred for disbelievers, that is hatred for all non-Muslim world?
[/QUOTE]
you insinuate stuff about the Quran and expect us not to retaliate? Perhaps you should stop directing everything in that direction. Look at the "Why do you believe" thread, that had some very good discussion, patient, respectful, intellectual. Respect our position, we'll respect yours.
You are so pathetic at it. In your own opening post you talked against Islam and you expect Muslims to ignore that and talk about “religion in general”. 
Re: Why Religion?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Hindus have a cast system, child marriage, sati etc.
For Judaism all are inferior to Jews.
Islam has left no sincerity for disbelievers, people who do not accept the concept of Islam.
[/QUOTE]
Can't you have little decency? I mean this is all "your" understanding of different religions ,where you might not agree with others you can atleast be courteous about it.
I agree. What’s up with that, Yahudi babaji?
[QUOTE]
Soul, before copying and pasting any stuff from anti-islamic websites, you shoud know something that is called 'shaan-e-nuzool'. Every ayah , every verse in Quran has a history, a background about it. And true scholars who do understand Islam give us the insight of what is being said and why.
[/QUOTE]
at the end of the day, these verses are from your holy book. They clearly encourage violence against anyone who dosenot beleive in yor beliefs. If you claim there are scholars to white wash this for your consumption, thats not my look out. Thats their interpretation of text for you.
And to remind you none of those scholars ever agree with each other....even today,none of them can establish , what your allah meant by 'Jehad'???..ppl like osama think its mandatory for them to kill jews and christians....while the progressives think its ones internal personal struggle against temptations.....
I wonder why God never made it clear!!!.....
[QUOTE]
Just like someone said up there, before you comment on any relegion, be sure what you are talking about. I think you are old enough to realize that, but just dont wanna implement it.
[/QUOTE]
We are discussing here....not scraching each others back.
If someone challenges me to bring verses from koran that preaches violence....i accepted it. And produced them.
What your scholars think about them is not my headache.
Even you are old enough to understand that if God had problems with Paggans and jews and christians and all rest, he wouldn't have created them in the first place. And even after that, he could have stop producing them today...or would have tackled them himself....afterall he is a 'Almighty'....Dose he need jehadis to run his world?
Btw. those verses are from an athesist site, not anti -islamic.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
at the end of the day, these verses are from your holy book. They clearly encourage violence against anyone who dosenot beleive in yor beliefs. If you claim there are scholars to white wash this for your consumption, thats not my look out. Thats their interpretation of text for you.
[/quote]
For the umpteenth and last time, the religious/holy book Quran is for "Muslims", not for "non-believers". All Muslims agree that these verses are for when they are attacked/oppressed, but you the expert say that its to kill non-believers anytime anyday. If that was the case you wouldn't be alive today as non-Muslim.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
For the umpteenth and last time, the religious/holy book Quran is for "Muslims", not for "non-believers". All Muslims agree that these verses are for when they are attacked/oppressed, but you the expert say that its to kill non-believers anytime anyday. If that was the case you wouldn't be alive today as non-Muslim.
[/QUOTE]
can you use the verses to justify your action in china or mongolia or any other country? which country allows relgious books in the court of law?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
can you use the verses to justify your action in china or mongolia or any other country? which country allows relgious books in the court of law?
[/QUOTE]
I am not really familiar how China stops Muslims from practising Islam, so I am unable to say whether they are doing it rightly or not. Fighting is not the first choice, negotiations are, as demonstrated by Prophet Mohammed PBUH throughout his life in Mecca and Medina. He only fought when others attacked or were attacking. Those Muslims also have a choice of migrating (if they can) to other countries where they can survive in better way.
[QUOTE]
I am not really familiar how China stops Muslims from practising Islam, so I am unable to say whether they are doing it rightly or not.
[/QUOTE]
than why dont you find out?? are chinese too sacred for you, that you refuse to acknowledge their actrocities on moslems?? The truth is that the Chinese invaded East Turkestan in 1949 and made it a Chinese province. They are now repopulating it with the Han Chinese and pushing the indegineous moslems into minority now in their own land.
*China ‘removing’ Muslims From Kashgher *
GILGIT: The Chinese government has launched a comprehensive operation against Muslims who have lived in Kashgher for the last 500 years, sources told Daily Times on Sunday.
Sources said the Chinese government demolished more than 6,000 commercial and residential buildings owned by Muslims near Eid Gah in Kashgher. The government wanted to dislodge Muslims from the area and settle Chinese nationals there to prevent Muslim revolts, souches said. Sources said about fifty thousand Muslims had been driven out of their homes and commercial buildings and they were living in public places. —Staff Report
I don’t know what you are trying to say “too scared for you” 
. Anyway, the news item you have posted seems to suggest that if Muslims of that area do protest or resort to violence against the Chinese government it would be right to do so.
Yes changez, true. But pakistanis seem to turn blind towards the plight of chinese moslems
China's high-stakes war on terror
By Louisa Lim
BBC, Kashgar
In China's remote north-western province of Xinjiang, Muslim faithful stream into the Id Kah mosque in Kashgar, 3,500 kilometres from Beijing.
But to answer the call to prayer in Xinjiang, home to 11m Muslims, is to enter the latest battleground in China's war against terrorism.
China is worried about how to control its Muslim minority
As worshippers bow towards Mecca, their devotion is clear. It is the form that devotion might take which worries the Chinese authorities.
The top official in Xinjiang, Communist Party secretary Wang Lequan, spelled out his priorities.
"Religious extremism is one of the three forces in Xinjiang that we are making great efforts to fight against," he said.
"The other two are ethnic splittism and violent terrorism. Of the three, religious extremist forces account for the most part of our efforts."
To that end, the authorities have tightened their control on religion, instituting a programme of patriotic education for the imams in all mosques in Xinjiang.
"We hold meetings with the religious branch of the Chinese government," he said. "They teach us about patriotism, cooperation between religion, and government and unity."
To demonstrate the forces it is fighting, local government officials took us to an exhibition about terrorism in the town of Khotan, historically a centre of anti-Chinese activity.
We were shown rusty knives, ancient guns and large quantities of grenades, confiscated - we were told - from terrorist groups.
Alongside were books and videos about Islam. One local official, Mochtar Wusur, was quick to make the link.
"Religious extremists are using the banner of religion to carry out terrorist explosions," he said. "All the books we have here are opposed to the government and reactionary. Their content is very unhealthy and very bad."
Pinned up on the wall were pictures of the mangled aftermath of bomb explosions and bloody corpses of murder victims. Chinese authorities say separatist groups have mounted more than 200 such attacks since 1990, causing 162 deaths. They say officials and religious personnel were targeted, including those accused of collaborating with the Chinese.
The Chinese authorities mainly blame a shadowy group called the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM). It accuses ETIM of having links to the Taleban in neighbouring Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, but has produced no supporting evidence.
Beijing has outlawed ETIM for a decade. After Chinese lobbying, the group was also banned last year by the US and the United Nations, despite criticism from diplomats who described ETIM as defunct. But international concerns about China's actions have largely been swept aside as the world wages war on terrorism.
Excessive
Now human rights groups say that the controls on religion have gone too far.
"Any religious activity, any publication, any forum, any association which is not formally approved by the government is technically illegal in China," says Nicholas Becquelin from Human Rights in China.
"Certainly since 11 September, what we've seen is that anyone steps over that line is immediately arrested and detained and even sentenced in some cases. The policies that we see carried out in Xinjiang are a complete negation of the freedom of religion. That is absolutely certain," he said.
On the streets, life seems to carry on as normal. But hurried comments away from government minders indicate an undercurrent of fear and unhappiness.
"It's really bad living here", I was told by one man, a member of the province's Uighur ethnic majority. "We're being rounded up and taken away." He was too scared to say any more.
There are no figures on the number of arrests. But human rights groups overseas estimate that thousands of Uighurs have been detained since 11 September, many for illegal religious activities.
One Uighur agreed to meet in secret. To him, the war on terror has become a war on Islam.
"They're punishing people for their religious beliefs," he said. "They're punishing those who become devout Muslims and want to research Islam by themselves. Uighur people are not terrorists. They don't want to be terrorists. They're peaceful people."
The danger is that any religious repression by the authorities could stoke bitter resentment against Chinese rule.
And that could overflow into the very type of unrest that the government so wants to avoid.
According to Chinese state television, the Pakistani president vowed on Monday to oppose terrorism as well as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, which China accuses of seeking independence for the Xinjiang region in China's north-west.
Other Pak's double standard. Those Muslims needs freedom and rights as much as kashmiris.
***Originally posted by soul: *
Yes changez, true. But pakistanis seem to turn blind towards the plight of chinese moslems
:
:
According to Chinese state television, the Pakistani president vowed on Monday to oppose terrorism as well as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, which China accuses of seeking independence for the Xinjiang region in China's north-west.
Other Pak's double standard. Those Muslims needs freedom and rights as much as kashmiris. **
First of all, let me break it to you, Musharraf or any other government in Pakistan history has NEVER been "Islamic" government, no matter how hard they try to put word "Islam" in their papers, they never were.
Secondly, Pakistani government is equally to be blamed for turning blind eyes like any other country in world. Take US, Europe, India or any other country, nobody has ONE SIMPLE STANDARD. Double standard is the rule of today, it does not mean that I approve it.
Pakistani government is as as$ kisser as US, India, Europe, mid-Eastern etc, no difference at all. It all boils down to $$$$.
Changez, just out of curiosity, is musharraff still popular??..we non pakistanis get confused here!! i mean he is kicking on....inspite of a fail coup in army....threatening??
his golden hue's faded a tad, but most people i know think he's done better than any leader of recent memory.
uummmhh...thax
**Guys, there is no need to go off tangents. The topic of the thread was about why follow religion whether its Hindu, Islam, Judaism and Christianity. And what would happen if people follow them blindinly.
There is no need to bring in articles about how Pakistan deals with plight of Chinese Muslims and what kinda personality trait Musharraf has.
Lets stick to the topic
Thanks**