Parliment of Pakistan can only allocate a chunk of GDP to Defence requirements however it has no authority to publicly or privately debate it. No detalis of Defence Procurements are provided under the Public Secrets Act on 1923. why should’nt the nation know the details of procurement of Defence equipment and how its armed forces are spending the taxpayers money? Any good reasons against it.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
We are hardly a nation.
There are many state secrets involved in it. Like ISI spending cant be discussed in open. Then there must be some deal I mean procurement of some banned weapons etc etc, how these issues can be discussed in the spectrum of politicians who are highly unreliable. We have example in the past, where our politicians were on the pay roll of Inidans
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Hmm
Okay a partially valid argument given it is factually correct. Lets face it ISI is only part of the problem. Leave ISI and discuss the rest.
however why are we not privy to the details of F-16 purchase, whole world knows how much we are getting? why not open the details of the deal for public scrutiny.similarly all the known weapon purchases.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Military point of view: Its easier to do stuff when you don't have to justify actions.
Another reason is that once people are more aware - people will start asking / condeming the spendings and it WILL japordize the military strength. As it did with all other countries. (Not saying its the best course of action, just stating thats what been happening in history till now)
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
NO asking questions is good as it will create checks and balances. Army is not a state within a state but a guardian of the frontiers. Why should it assume that it knows more than people of Pakistan collectively as to what it should do. checks and balances are supposed to be a part of every system. Pakistan Army has done equally good as Indian Army at Junior levels but failed miserably at top level in all wars with India because we do not have proper control over our generals . I think it is time to roll some heads and establish public accountability.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
I agree with you we need more balances and checks - but I also do not want poltical body to be incharge of that. Who else is qualified to do that?
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
First to understand why, one should understand that comparing Pakistani military and the defence budget with the likes of US/UK or at times even India would be illogical. Why? because everyone always has issues with Pakistan's or an Islamic country's military capability.
Ironically if it hadnt been for the Afghan Jihad or the war on terror, Pakistan would have been far far behind, and India may well have been where it is now.
So, there's not just one reason why military spending, budgets, plans and deals are not made public. In fact in no country is it 100% transparent for public. It's not the local district govt budget. btw, even that is not 100% transparent in actual terms.
And how could any intelligence agency ever declare its ops, spendings, plans etc...? There maybe debate and open discussion at macro level only, but the deatails are not meant for anyone but the organization basically...
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Come on no one is asking for intelligence agencies for disclosing their budgets.
Yes you are right that our politicians are equally stupid, so who else is left.
One check and balance can be that we disclose all financial spending except on covert operations after the year has passed. Once people will scrutinize checks and balances will be produced automatically in the system. Let the media do it. They are doing a fairly good job in Pakistan right now. Do not get permission from parliment if you think politicians are not trustworthy but disclose once the deal has happened. why not this way, still better than nothing.
Re: Why Pakistan’s Defence Budget not debated publicly
I have heard, and correct me if im wrong, that a large chunk of the defense budget goes towards kickbacks, and making sure generals have a constant supply of cigars and someone to light them, and paying for the expenses of top brass, making sure they can afford to buy their wives nice clothes etc. The rest goes to make sure aging former Army men dont forget they were once privleged enough to have been in the Pak army by maintaining a large house with servants all the way to their grave.
But thats ok I suppose, as soon as they run out of money they can allocate more of it, or build another DHA complex…
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Well
This is again blanket criticism rather than just specific. First of all army is a volunteer profession and far tougher physically and psychologically than any comparative profession. Therefore you have to give them certain facilities as a trade off and instill a sense of pride without which an army cannot function. Therefore there is nothing wrong in any Bunglows or even DHA's taking care of retired personnel till the time all is legal and open for scrutiny. If the nation will not take care of its soldiers, who will? None of us will be even ready to spend nights over nights in the cold blizzards of siachen in a cave like structure or hot deserts of Thar with just a tent fly overhead sometimes or sometimes under open sky. Who amongst us picks his luggage every two years to another duty station where he sometimes does not get even a house for 6 months, with kids in ancestral homes blah blah blah. So no blanket blaming please.
However this does not allow any one with a carte blanche to do whatever one feels like and not be accountable for spending the public money, which could have been used elsewhere. No need to stop purchases for defence, but at least make the officials accountable to public at least.
Re: Why Pakistan’s Defence Budget not debated publicly
The Pakistan Army has more privliges (self inflicted) then any army in the region… The Pak brass are probably better of then any of their counterparts across the border or anywhere else. They get land at throw away prices, they can run around the country doing whatever they feel without the fear of police, they live in exorbitant ways… Its just to much.
And the Army has no place in bussiness ventures. Its main role is to defend the countries borders not be gettng involved in profit making ventures.
There are other disciplined armies of the world who dont have these rewards.
Im not critisizing everyone, but the Army is flawed in the way it functions… Its literally become a state within a state.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
It should never become a state within the state. I agree, which it has become due to our stupid generals not junior officers.
Indian army officers and men recieves tax free stuff for them in their CSD's (Not available to civilians) at about 60% of market rate. A brand new car is almost 100k Indian rupees cheaper in CSD than market (1300 CC models). Each officer can apply for a housing scheme introduced by army like our army and they have been till recently alloted barren stateland on 99 year lease basis. They get life time pension & emoulments from Federal & provincial governments (other than army) on Gallantry awards which are given in much more frequency than our army (our army has no such pension and emoulments from civil government other than defense). They have almost a hundred percent accomodation compared to our army which has a much lesser percentage. Their officers retire at 52 minimum while our army retire you at average 42/43. What else you want to know?
who says there is no fear of police or army people do not abide by the law?any incidents (you require many to establish the case and that too in cases where army saved them).
Yes there is problem but it has historically been at the top level. But the top level at Pakistan is corrupt every where why single out army in that case. we need to fix it on issue by issue basis and therefore i initiated this thread so that we can identify these issues. One of them i believed was debating the defense budget and needless security created around these commercial deals to save the corruption. Do you have any other suggestion as well.
Still i agree than these generals should only be busy in warfare planning and training and they have nothing to do in business and universities & i was sent a quote by a friend from army which went like this,
"people join army with wide thoughts and narrow waists only to turn otherwise the more they grow in ranks".
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
I think by now all agreed that entire budget cant be disclosed in open due to security reasons. Like spending on ISI (though they get very less from state budget, mostly they used their own funds) and second is secret deals like that of Nukes and missiles etc. However remaining budgetary aspects may be disclosed in open.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
however why are we not privy to the details of F-16 purchase, whole world knows how much we are getting? why not open the details of the deal for public scrutiny.similarly all the known weapon purchases.
As far as F-16 deal is concern, I think the country like Pakistan which is confronted with a neighbour having hegemonic designs and strongly believes on exercising its military muscles, would love to declare such deals more vocifereously, in order to maintain that minimum deterrence. And this is equally good for all other such weapons and technolgies.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Why should it be debated publically? Why take decisions about what hardware is militarily most needed out of the hands of the military and putting it in civilian hands?
Military minds understand the military needs of the nation better than elected civilian minds, because only military minds are not limited by the need to win the next election.
The only thing that should, and is, debated, is how much money the Armed Forces should get. Beyond that, civilian interference in the military procurement process will only have damaging effects.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
I am always against any such autocratic attitude of our armed forces. They should be subservient to political power but unfortunately in our country it is the converse.
Sooner or later we have to trust our politicians, we have to develop our political system and we have to restrict our military might to their primary role of defending the frontiers.
The head of the states must know the top secret information including future military plans, nukes deployment etc.
As far defense budget is concern, except ISI share and budget involved in sensitive organization like KRL etc, should be discussed in National Assembly and a prior approval from cabinet should be made compulsory.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
KRL is hardly secret anymore mostly working now for civilian market.
Well i suggested that if we cannot trust the current breed of politicians than at least after the deal has been made and it is not concerning some banned weapons or Operational intelligence aspects, it should be available to public for scritiny, i mean one can get a copy of the contract and have a look at it and can raise the voice in court if find any hanky panky.
ISI is another subject, if ISI soes not get money from state, where it makes it money from? Business Ventures? I think that other than some operational intelligence details if ISI buys an equipment from international market, those who want to know what it has bought (like RAAW etc) will know, only we people whose money is being spent will not know. why not produce the purchases made by the organization public. What operational secret will be revealed that if you know how many computers the organization has bought this year and at what price. How many vehicles it has bought at what price.
There exists a law now in Pakistan (though few would be knowing it, as government has enacted it under donors pressure) that you can get the details of these commercial tender details by writing a self addressed envelope and sending it by registered mail clearly indicating the subject and if reply not received in a certain period of time, repeat the procedure and finally go to court. At the expense of the organization the proceedings will go on. However minutes of meeting do not fall under this law only the decisions. This law does cover financial spendings, why not increase its scope to ministray of defense?
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
also few more benefits given to Indian Army officers
Petrol available at cheaper rates from the markets from their official stores, Unlimited 50% concessional vouchers at all airlines (domestic) and Railway travel. No toll tax on highways and expressways etc.
Also Indian army has been made much more top heavy to promote the officers in better percentage, a unit commander in Indian army is a full colonel unlike us who have a lieutenant colonel. They promote every officer to lieutenant colonel while we promote till major without selection. They are so top heavy that as a comparison we an army half their size has almost 20+ lieutenant generals whereas they have 80+ lieutenant generals. Their Generals also go on to become governers or ambassadors though in a lesser percentage but still go. They promote their captains to the rank of major in 7 years while we do it in 10 years, they make him a lieutenant colonel in 13 years while we make him in 18 years, the list goes on and on...
The purpose of this listing was to just give an evidence that this army bashing without talking on specifics is very common now in Pakistan, and people like to say a lot that our army is far better off than Indian Army, i have presented the facts in front of you to decide. Even DHA is like Wapda or PIA colony etc only better managed, People like to buy land in DHA that is why it is expensive, a few months before WAPDA launched its farm house scheme of 14 lakhs per 25 Kanal farm on raiwind road for its employees but no body objected. New WAPDA chairman has nothing to do with power generation or water issues, he is a life long businessman coming from ICI. No body said that he is not the technocrat from WAPDA so he should be removed. The criticism should be specific not like carpet bombing destroying all good and bad.
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
i think most countries dont let on about htier defense budget! the whole thing with you dont want the whole world to know about your arsenal and all....though i suspect the whole world does know b/c we all kinda buy from the same place i suspect!
Re: Why Pakistan's Defence Budget not debated publicly
Precisely the reason i suggested that, if every one else knows, why not the one's whose money is being spent