There are many discussions direct or indirect that tend to criticize Pakistan regarding the treatment of USPs. Some complain about Quota system, and others rant about bad conditions in Pakistan particularly for the sons and daughters of the immigrants from India.
However all of them tend to forget about simple facts based on eye witness accounts, as to how our cousins “left behind in India” are doing after living in 60 years of Indian dhoom dhoom demoKrazy.
I am not sure how many of us get to visit India and meet our extended families there.
So let us hear from those who can AFFORD a visit to India to meet the COUSINS. Let’s share how well or poorly they are doing in education, housing, and jobs.
You have to remember that in 1947 the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan were rich and educated Muslims who could afford the travel and could settle in new state. Others who migrated were either forced because of riots etc. Many of the poor Muslims who were not able to migrate or did not want to migrate.
Many non Urdu speaking Muslims chose to stay back in India.
You have to remember that in 1947 the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan were rich and educated Muslims ...
So you say that if we send MQM walahs back to Bihar, they will make Bihari Muslims richer? Cool. Let's send them over the border for the sake of 160 million Indian Muslims. OK!
Seriously! forget about the GENERAL comparisons. When we compare COUSINS, we are comparing the same families, and thus a SIMILAR socio-economic and education background.
Re: Why our cousins doing so poorly in India? Question for the MQM die hards
Saregama and queer combined would make a good point.
Saregama's pont
The upper and middle-classes of India left for Pakistan - they were the ones most influenced by politics, and most ideological. Poor Muslims in India were poor and miserable under the Mughals, were poor and miserable under the British, and continued to be poor & miserable under the Hindus. The poor couldn't perceive the difference partition would make to their daily lives
The upper and middle-classes are the dynamic heart of any community, producing its leaders and its wealth. India's Muslims had these gutted from them when they moved following partition.
Queer's point
The upper and middle classes are the ones who most value modern education and social transformation. In poor communities, education falls behind basic survival as a priority.
I thought most migrant were poor who came to Pakistan via khokhrapar and from Lahore. They prospered in Pakistan. Very few rich families migrated including Dawood, Adamjee, Saigals, Valika. Most of the middle and rich prefered to remain in India.
One of my urdu language professor told us in college that once Jigar Murad Abadi (well known Urdu poet) visited Pakistan in the fifties and hosts asked him to migrate to Pakistan, he said
kanton ka bhi kuch haq hay aakhir
kon chrhraay apna daaman
Moti Lal Nehru Road connecting Gurumandir to Islamia College was changed to his name "Jigar Murad Abaadi Road"during his visit.
that and muslims' allergy to modern education system, and their inability to empower their women even compared to their hindu couterparts.
if pakistanis had to compete with hindus and sikhs in their society, they would pretty much fare the same as their cousins as well.
Oh meray bhai,
When you compare COUSINS, then you must remember they share a comparable approach towards education / science / politics / religion etc. Thus you factor out lot of unknowns when the sample group is starting from the same known points.
Thus the uneducated USPs in Karachi may have higher proportions of uneducated
cousins in India if we go by your assertion.
On the other hand, educated USPs will have higher proportions of educated cousins back in India.
Re: Why our cousins doing so poorly in India? Question for the MQM die hards
Wrong question.... ?
Right Question : Why does a party like MQM & a leader like AH exists & represents USPes when they have done far far far far better then their cousins left in India..., there is no absolutely objective measure of representation but the closest would be representation in electoral college over the past 25 years of MQM, correct me if I am wrong at present they hold over 85% of NA seats from Karachi in 2008 elections & they have consistently won over 60%(lowest been 60% in 2002 elections) seats from Karachi; supposedly the city with the highest litracy rate in Pakistan ?
If it is due to coersion which I can understand then its preposterous to ask any questions & make any comparison on freedom & liberty
There are many discussions direct or indirect that tend to criticize Pakistan regarding the treatment of USPs. Some complain about Quota system, and others rant about bad conditions in Pakistan particularly for the sons and daughters of the immigrants from India.
However all of them tend to forget about simple facts based on eye witness accounts, as to how our cousins "left behind in India" are doing after living in 60 years of Indian dhoom dhoom demoKrazy.
I am not sure how many of us get to visit India and meet our extended families there.
So let us hear from those who can AFFORD a visit to India to meet the COUSINS. Let's share how well or poorly they are doing in education, housing, and jobs.
Objective comments only. No flames please.
i can quote you one example two brothers one brother came to pakistan one choose to stay in india..
the one who came here saw his sons becoming multi millionaires and their first cousins in india frankly average income.
i dont know whats the reality in Urdu speaking families above example is of a gujrati family of my friend.
i can quote you one example two brothers one brother came to pakistan one choose to stay in india..
the one who came here saw his sons becoming multi millionaires and their first cousins in india frankly average income.
i dont know whats the reality in Urdu speaking families above example is of a gujrati family of my friend.
Anecdotal evidence though not scientific, perhaps could be included in this thread.
However one could look at the general population based statistic.
**
There are 150+ million Muslims living in India. Let's consider for a moment that there are 150+ million Muslims living in BDesh
Thus in subcontinent 300+ million Muslims live in the so-called Democratic and secular societies".
This number is double the number of Pakistan Muslims living under Feudal, and Military "shackles".
And yet, Pak Muslims in general and USPs in Particular have done PHENOMENALLY well compared to their cousins and relatives in India in MOST spheres of life including education, jobs, and Housing. And perhaps the much smaller population of Bengalis living in Karachi compared to their cousins in BDesh.
Should we then allow fascists like MQM's AH to win elections year after year?
burqaposh, mqm supporters wont show up till they find a way to pin this one on the "evil punjabi establishment" too. it is so much easier this way.
check out the writeup on wikipedia for indian punjab. it too suffers from influx of mostly uneducated bihari and UP immigrants, resulting in an increase of unemployment and crime rate (no surprise there). Most if not all of mqm's supporters and leaders are also uneducated bihari or from UP.
Anecdotal evidence though not scientific, perhaps could be included in this thread.
However one could look at the general population based statistic.
There are 150+ million Muslims living in India. Let's consider for a moment that there are 150+ million Muslims living in BDesh
Thus in subcontinent 300+ million Muslims live in the so-called Democratic and secular societies".
This number is double the number of Pakistan Muslims living under Feudal, and Military "shackles".
And yet, Pak Muslims in general and USPs in Particular have done PHENOMENALLY well compared to their cousins and relatives in India in MOST spheres of life including education, jobs, and Housing. And perhaps the much smaller population of Bengalis living in Karachi compared to their cousins in BDesh.
** Should we then allow fascists like MQM's AH to win elections year after year? **
Posh I expected better from you. How can you generalise that Pak muslims are better off than their relatives in India.
Also this is a real gem
[quote]
Should we then allow fascists like MQM's AH to win elections year after year?
[/Quote]
Please understand how democracy works and then make such statements. Sorry I did not realise you were talking about the Pakistani form of democracy.
Re: Why our cousins doing so poorly in India? Question for the MQM die hards
There are many reasons why the Urdu speaking muslims from India in pakistan might be doing better than the average muslim in India.
The first two points are already covered by other posters:
Most of the muslims that migrated were from the middle and the upper middle class and the rich.
Muslims left behind in India and Bangladesh, were poor since centuries and will continue to remain so.
In general, migrants tend to do better than the stable populace. For whatever reasons, all over the world, you find people who stick on to their native places are underdeveloped than those migrating in search of better opportunities.
For eg. The Hindus and Sikhs that migrated to India from Pakistan are doing extremely well, much better than the "native" indian sikhs and Hindus. But, the fate of the Hindus and sikhs left behind in Pakistan is bad.
Indian speakth of democracy..LOL... Now I've heard every thing.
You live in a very small world. Good for you. I know it is very difficult for you to accept that India is a democracy. You come from a country where your Presidents win elections with more than 90% of votes.
Whichever method you are comfortable with, please post some credible links. Dont quote an uncle of yours who knew two brothers ...
funny man. you da funny man.
There is at least one LARGE book published in India. This was promptly banned by the government. Hence the ignorance of many good folks in India.
The book written by Gabha analyzes each and every government department and many privately owned corporations. The end result of this analysis was simple.
Indian Muslims' representation is court system, finance, law enforcement, engineering, madicine etc. etc do not reflect their share of the population.
Many Indian nationalists want to wave their hands and say Muslims do not want to study.
That perhaps is true.
However modern day Pakistan inherited no large scale set of universities, colleges, schools, etc. But still they managed to move ahead leaps and bounds compared to Indian Muslims.
And that's the point of this thread.
That Pakistan has allowed USPs to prosper way beyond even their own imagination, and definitely beyond their COUSINS still in India.
There is at least one LARGE book published in India. This was promptly banned by the government. Hence the ignorance of many good folks in India.
The book written by Gabha analyzes each and every government department and many privately owned corporations. The end result of this analysis was simple.
.
So what is this Gabha book .... maybe you in Pakistan have access to it ... do enlighten us about it .......
However modern day Pakistan inherited no large scale set of universities, colleges, schools, etc. But still they managed to move ahead leaps and bounds compared to Indian Muslims.
.
So in what field have the muslims in Pakistan "way ahead" of Indian muslims ... as far as i know Muslims in India have a literacy rate of 59.1 % .... it is perhaps teh same if not better then the litercay rate in Pakistan !!!!