Why on earth....?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

I visited this site http://www.muslimsforkerry.com provided in a link in another thread. While going through their web pages I came across this piece http://www.muslimsforkerry.com/weblog_more.php?id=92_0_1_0_M.

It is amazing to see that so many Muslims actually are buying this crap from Dems. Some highlights as follows:

American Muslims are nearly unanimous in their feeling that the US should provide some form of universal health care for all its citizens (96% in favor).

Whoever these Mulsims are they have no self respect and want to live their lives on “hand outs” from the Govt. Be a man and support your own family. Get a real job and your medical expenses will be taken care of.
John Kerry has committed himself to extend health care coverage to 95% of all Americans, including every child.

Hmmm, I wonder how he is going to do that. By taking more of my money giving it to the free loaders…no thank you.

Muslims favor an increase in funding for after school programs (94% in favor), John Kerry is committed to a “School’s Open 'Til Six” program which will insure that 3.5 million children of working families have after-school programs that are in place until parents come home.

After school programs are good, but who is going to pay for this extended “school’s open till six” …Heinz family…no, you and me. I take care of my family by providing for them, that includes a nanny at home. We make arrangements for one of us to be at home when the hired help is not available. This is called taking responsibilty for your children. Unlike the popular dems belief, no it does not take a village to raise a child, it takes two dedicated parents who understand this responsibilty and work to raise their child themselves.

**American Muslims are in full support of providing more generous government assistance to the poor (92% in favor), **

Here we go again with free hand outs. If you do not pay taxes, you are not entitled to get any money back…its that simple, alas, my dem friends fail to understand this simple concept.

American Muslims are strongly in favor (81%) of making it more difficult for people to buy guns

oh o, good old guns kill people…yeah right…cars kill people too…maybe we should make it harder for people to buy cars. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

John Kerry is fully committed to continuing stem cell research

He is also fully committed to killing fetuses, however,he is opposed to putting the violent criminals down who have committed hienous crimes. That makes a lot of sense.

Wake up America, John Kerry is not your friend.

2

Re: Why on earth....?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
Wake up America, John Kerry is not your friend.
[/QUOTE]

But he isn't anyone's enemy either.

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Re: Re: Why on earth....?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *

But he isn't anyone's enemy either.
[/QUOTE]

Well! He is enemy if Bush is friend, and he is friend if Bush is not. Typical flip flopper like his cohort Kabuli Kommie Kabal.

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Re: Re: Re: Why on earth....?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Well! He is enemy if Bush is friend, and he is friend if Bush is not. Typical flip flopper like his cohort Kabuli Kommie Kabal.
[/QUOTE]

Actually the rest of the free world agrees with my point. Kerry is generally preferred by the rest of the world over Bush because he hasn't engaged in any stupid antics like the Iraq or Afghan wars.

I am not saying he won't engage in such antics, just stating the facts.

5

Get a real job and your medical expenses will be taken care of.

Kaleem Bhai jaan, what is a real job? I am sooo interested to know.

6

[quote]
Get a real job and your medical expenses will be taken care of.
[/quote]
Then who is going to fill the "non-real" jobs that don't offer health insurance? Health care and whether you live or die, especially for children who don't have an alternative, should not depend on how wealthy you are.

[quote]
If you do not pay taxes, you are not entitled to get any money back.
[/quote]
You don't pay taxes to 'get your money back'. You pay taxes for the priviledge of living in this country that gives you the opportunity to afford a nanny. If it wasn't for the lower class there wouldn't be anyone to watch your kids or empty your trash.

[quote]
He is also fully committed to killing fetuses, however,he is opposed to putting the violent criminals down who have committed hienous crimes. That makes a lot of sense.
[/quote]
None of that makes sense, it is right wing propaganda.

7

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Then who is going to fill the "non-real" jobs that don't offer health insurance? Health care and whether you live or die, especially for children who don't have an alternative, should not depend on how wealthy you are.

You don't pay taxes to 'get your money back'. You pay taxes for the priviledge of living in this country that gives you the opportunity to afford a nanny. If it wasn't for the lower class there wouldn't be anyone to watch your kids or empty your trash.

None of that makes sense, it is right wing propaganda.
[/QUOTE]

Seminole, it is not my responsibilty to pay for "other peoples" medical expenses. I believe in charity, but I do not believe in forced charity. Child's parent should have thought about it,before they had a child. It might sound cold, but we certainly did. We made sure that we had enough money saved up to take care of the children before we decided to start our family.

You don't pay taxes to 'get your money back'. You pay taxes for the priviledge of living in this country that gives you the opportunity to afford a nanny.

Semi, I thought you were smarter than this. I was referring to the notion that Kerry will ease the burden of low income peopel by giving them tax cuts.

Every one has a place in society, I do not look down upon any one because of what kind of work they do, however, i do get offended when they think that people who have worked hard to achieve certain status "owe" them .....no we dont. I have worked hard to achieve what I have, and by grace of Allah will continue to do so. I will give my money to poor who I think deserve it, not some one who believes that they are entitled to free health care and other benfits on my expense

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *

Get a real job and your medical expenses will be taken care of.

Kaleem Bhai jaan, what is a real job? I am sooo interested to know.
[/QUOTE]

ahmdjee bhaijaan, that will be where your employer provides health care benefits...you know group insurance concept .....right. :). So people can see a doctor when they are sick and not have to cry to uncle kerry that "our children are left behind".

9

Kaleem,

What you have just presented is a typical Populist message. Why do Muslims support it? Because it appears free. The message that we will raise the funds for all these wonderful things by raising taxes on the weathy is quite clear. Obviously Muslims do not percieve themselves to be wealthy, so it looks like good stuff paid for by someone else.

When you get deeper into the economics of capital flight, and wonder why no one has the capital to create new jobs, we can all look to our free stuff, and wonder who will pay for it next.

People always vote for the guy who promises free stuff. It's not good for the country, it's not responsible, but it has been going on for hundreds of years.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *

Seminole, it is not my responsibilty to pay for "other peoples" medical expenses. I believe in charity, but I do not believe in forced charity. Child's parent should have thought about it,before they had a child. It might sound cold, but we certainly did. We made sure that we had enough money saved up to take care of the children before we decided to start our family.

Every one has a place in society, I do not look down upon any one because of what kind of work they do, however, i do get offended when they think that people who have worked hard to achieve certain status "owe" them .....no we dont. I have worked hard to achieve what I have, and by grace of Allah will continue to do so.
[/QUOTE]
You wouldn't have had the opportunity to achieve your status without the framework that this country allows by having a certain standard of living for all its citizens. I'm not talking about supporting lazy people who don't want to work. But there are people busting their ass making $30 a day with no health insurance. You are not the only one working hard. Are you saying if they or their children have health problems we should let them die? Doesn't sound like you wish the grace of Allah for everyone.

There will ALWAYS be a section of society that is not as well off as others. They will be changing the oil in your car, sweeping your streets to keep them clean, flipping your hamburgers, cleaning the toilets you use, pulling weeds in your garden, ringing up your groceries, etc, etc. You don't look down on them, you just don't think they deserve to have health care. OK

These people will not go childless just because they don't have the money for a nanny. That is not realistic.

[quote]
I will give my money to poor who I think deserve it, not some one who believes that they are entitled to free health care and other benfits on my expense
[/quote]
There is a price to pay to live in this society. If you want serfdom you are in the wrong continent at the wrong time. In this society, however fortunate you are making money, is at their expense. You wouldn't have jack if it wasn't for them. Health care shouldnt be a government giveaway, they just need to make it easier for even the working poor to have coverage.

11

Thank you Kaleem Bhai for the explanation.

Let me tell that to the 60+ year old janitor who comes in our office over the weekend through a temp company that pays him by the hour & the only “benefit” as he sees it that he can proudly say that he has never been on welfare. Let me tell him that his job is not really ‘real’ along with his dignity. He should vote for Bush and go back to school, so he can get a real job!

12

Re: Why on earth....?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *

American Muslims are nearly unanimous in their feeling that the US should provide some form of universal health care for all its citizens (96% in favor).

Whoever these Mulsims are they have no self respect and want to live their lives on "hand outs" from the Govt. Be a man and support your own family. Get a real job and your medical expenses will be taken care of.

[/QUOTE]

Kaleem, this just shows that most Muslims don't want to see people suffer. Just because muslims support universal health care doesn't mean that there the ones who are going to be using it. The concern is for those who can't affird it, families with single working moms and whatnot, while you say throw these people to the gutter who cares about them it seems must Muslims in the U.S. disagree with that stance.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
After school programs are good, but who is going to pay for this extended "school's open till six" ...Heinz family...no, you and me. I take care of my family by providing for them, that includes a nanny at home. We make arrangements for one of us to be at home when the hired help is not available. This is called taking responsibilty for your children. Unlike the popular dems belief, no it does not take a village to raise a child, it takes two dedicated parents who understand this responsibilty and work to raise their child themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Kaleem in a perfect world your right, all families would be responsible and make sure they children are taken car eof after school but in reality you have parents who can't afford childcare and have to work. These afterschool programs keep kids out of trouble, yes the programs cost money but they keep kids out of trouble and that means less crime and in turn that lowers the cost to everyone.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Kaleem: *
**American Muslims are strongly in favor (81%) of making it more difficult for people to buy guns*

oh o, good old guns kill people....yeah right...cars kill people too...maybe we should make it harder for people to buy cars. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.
[/QUOTE]

Right and everyone should be able to buy a tank, the ultimate SUV, because tanks don't kill people, people do. Brilliant.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Kaleem: *
**John Kerry is fully committed to continuing stem cell research*
[/QUOTE]

Stem cell research is a postive, not a negative.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
He is also fully committed to killing fetuses, however,he is opposed to putting the violent criminals down who have committed hienous crimes. That makes a lot of sense.

[/QUOTE]

Now I have to call you out for what you are, a liar.

If you want 4 more years of the same, vote Bush, if you believe it's time to give someone else a chance Vote Kerry, it's that simple.

13

Why do Muslims support it? Because it appears free.

How did you come up with this conclusion?

14

Small point I wish to add about health insurance.

I took a job once for a little over minimum wage while my husband went to college. The reason I took it was I was told when hired that if I stayed 6 months, I would be eligible for the health insurance offered by the company through Blue Cross. I asked what the payment would be every MONTH and was told $115. After speaking with my husband, I accepted the job and worked my tail off. When it came time to fill out the paperwork, I did and they started deducting $115 a WEEK for more than one person(more than half the check I was recieving at that time).

I immediately confronted the person who I got the information from and was told I was mistaken and if I didn't like it, find another carrier.

I ended up quitting.

This is very common and while you may be smug with the "they should find a job that provides coverage and a REAL job will", the packages for every job vary and the senario above is very common for people around the minimum wage bracket. And a LOT of companies will not carry health plans at all. Ask anyone working a gas station or a food mart.

Unfortunately the higher you are on the economic ladder the less you pay for benefits. The lower you are, the more. A little lopsided, you think? At least it should be the same all around. I know since I graduated college and moved on, I barely pay $10/week for a comprehensive health plan for my entire extended family.

Because there is no option for a lot of people, it is either the ability to see a doctor or starve.

England and Canada have workable health care accessible to everyone, why can't the same happen here?

15

Kaleem, the problem with your Go-do-it-yourself-you-moron approach, where each person should be responsible for their own lives including schooling, medical care and retirement is that it promotes crimes. If you don't ensure that kids stay at school, and are not otherwise involved in illegitimate activities is then these same kids will grow up into criminals and you will spend a higher amount on prisons and justice system. And yes, the money will again come out from the pockets of Kaleem, Faisal and the rest. These are the sort of choices nations make.

On one end, is the communist model, where the government owns everything and is totally responsible for all citizens. On the other end is a totally capitalistic model, where everyone fends for themselves. With experience, successful nations have realized that either of these extremes are not good, and so they maintain a middle ground, where each citizen is offered opportunities to succeed, and those are left behind, are provided a safety-net. The safety net is financed by tax dollars of people who are successful. The extent of the safety-net can be debated, but to eliminate it completely may reduce your taxes, but will reduce your quality of life too, with bums and muggers on every street.

16

How did you come up with this conclusion?

Because you do the same surveys, ask the question a different way, and it will expose the logic. If you ask any survey group "Are you in favor of X benefit", they will respond postively. When you tell them that their fair share of the expense is $250 bucks per month, support falls off of a cliff. All the respondents, Muslim or not are infavor of lots of proposals, until they are asked to pay for it.... this is a very common fallacy to these surveys. When they are told that "someone else" is going to pay for it, everything looks rosy, so there is no downside to saying yes.

There is no free lunch...

17

:k:

For once, we agree. :eek:

18

About this tax code thing:

What I resent is the characterization that the Bush tax cuts
** shifted the tax burden to the middle class.**

Here's the chart: 

                               **2001**      **2004**

Top 20% 182,700+ 64.4% 63.5%

           75,600              18.7%             19.5%

           51,500              10.3%             10.5%

           34,200                5.3%               5.2%

            14,900                1.2%              1.1%

Looks to me like the **burden/b] is still squarely with the high income earners by a long shot. So it would be better to say the middle class is now sharing a little more in the burden.

So when Kerry says the tax cuts for the highest income earners come at the expense of the middle class, that's BS in my opinion. The benefits the highest income earners receive from the federal govt. really don't change no matter how much they pay. The middle class and below have a whole menu of benefits they may take advantage of.

When I had no money I worked my ass off. When I was in the middle tax brackets, I worked my ass off. And must still work my ass off to stay in the higher bracket. Now, I just don't like it when I'm told that some much due tax relief for me is burdening someone else in the middle class (who by the way also got a tax break).

I already pay a higher percentage of my income(thus a much greater total), and this silly orthodoxy that says I',m supposed to feel bad that I'm suddenly burdening someone else when their tax break isn't as big as mine (as a percentage)?

I'm not heartless, I give plenty to charity as well. In fact I scored in the lefty/libertarian range on that test in the other thread(there's some legitimacy for ya) Let's figure out ways to budget better. More efficient Military spending, more efficient Ag subsidies, less Pork. Find out ways to help people who need it as a function of govt. in concert with the private sector.

But tell me I owe it to you (especially if you're not entitled to it) and you've lost my attention. You want to work toward fairness, mutual respect and reasonable help for those who are in need. The Dem strategy only engenders resentment and hatred.

Sorry, my chart didn't line too well.

19

[QUOTE]
Unfortunately the higher you are on the economic ladder the less you pay for benefits. The lower you are, the more. A little lopsided, you think? At least it should be the same all around. I know since I graduated college and moved on, I barely pay $10/week for a comprehensive health plan for my entire extended family.
[/QUOTE]

This is the worst generlaization I have ever seen. How in the world does making more monye makes youpay less for helath insurance? This does not make any sense at all. I still pay over $400/month, mind you, Blue Cross Blue Shield for our family. Hello, it has only gone up as i have progressed in the payscale over the years.....so please think before you put such absurd ideas into writing.

20

[QUOTE]
You wouldn't have had the opportunity to achieve your status without the framework that this country allows by having a certain standard of living for all its citizens.
[/QUOTE]

Semi, How do you come to the conclusion that without the liberalism I will not have this opportunity. One of the things that makes this country so great is that you are rewarded for your hard work. I realized it long time ago, and I am sure you have too. However, somewhere along the way we created this idea of helping those who are unfortunate not to have what "others" might have achieved. I am very proud of my accomplishments as any one else will be, I take offense to you suggesting that I could not have achieved my success with out some help from other folks.....No Sir, I have earned everything I own, and NO, I did not accept hand outs and did not expect Govt. paying for my expenses. If I, an immigrant, who came to this country in 91, can make it so can these bums who were born and raised in this country. Period end.

[QUOTE]
These people will not go childless just because they don't have the money for a nanny
[/QUOTE]

Again, Seminole, you missed the point, its not about the nanny. Its about having to pay for their "CHILDREN" (notice the plural) expenses. Hey if you know that you are poor, try to restrain yourself from having more than one child or have as many as you can afford. Dont expect the society for your children.

[QUOTE]
There is a price to pay to live in this society. If you want serfdom you are in the wrong continent at the wrong time. In this society, however fortunate you are making money, is at their expense. You wouldn't have jack if it wasn't for them.
[/QUOTE]

How do you figure that? I will not have jack if it was not for welfare moms, illegal immigrants who demand to get a job after going to high school and college on my tax money, illegal immigrants who drive the cost of medicine up, who cause the hospitals to go bankrupt because they have been treating these illegals for free and cannot afford to treat the patients who are actually paying their bills...you are trying to tell me that I could not achieve what I have without them. No Semi, they will not have anything without us ( all of us ....tax paying folks).