Why Nelson Mandela is Angry

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Braveheart,

Thank you for reading it.

Yes, the system is really screwed up.

>>I believe i remember Bush stating that on Sep 11th he was actualy trying to work out a better way of operating the whole system,as i said though,it should have been done before that.<<
Yeah, i think that was in reference to the "green lists" which would supposedly fast-track a few things - especially the process by which Iraq has to send orders through the Security Council for each single food and medical item they wish to purchase. As welcome as this measure is, unfortunately this does not address the lack of a cash component within the 'OFF' programme; the 25% of Iraq's oil revenues that continue to be paid into an external fund; and restrictions on all of Iraq's exports (such as wheat, textiles, etc.) apart from oil.

>>However this is where we part ways N,i place the ultimate blame for his peoples and his neighbors suffering squarlely on Saddam Hussein and his cronies.The blame for the screw ups with the OFF programme i place with the bad managment that is within the UN and the polititians that did not sort it out,not on some twisted scheme by Bush and Blair etc.<<
sigh Alright. Let's just agree to disagree.
Besides i think you have already acknowledged quite a bit, and particularly i appreciate your reading that 11-points source. Thank you for that.

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Thank you for pointing it out Nadia.

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Absolutely.

Sanctions have caused Iraq's birthrate to go down. A fact.

Now...not that I agree sanctions were morally the right thing to do....would continuing killing with guns n ammo have been better?

I don't know. I doubt it.

But I have a Q.

Why didn't Saddam abide by the sanctions agreements originally? And make the effort to prevent what happend? A fair question?

So now..

U.S.A. <~~~~~ bad guy

So tell me? What can we do to prevent this war? And...even..possibly at the same time earn respect from our peers, ourselves and the entire world?

Any ideas?

Start communicating.

U.S.A. and Iraq. Talk. Learn. Respect. Appreciate.

Ask?
Find out what each other needs and wants.

Try?
To accomodate those needs, on both sides of the spectrum.

Insist?
On knowing that we are all a small tiny piece of the universe..and have a short amount of time to dwell on earth, a short amount of time to say hello... at max? maybe 103-110 ultimate maximum years if absolutely lucky?

So...
How come we are wasting time?

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AAG, Welcome back. :flower1:

**
i think it is highly debatable whether or not Iraq has been uncooperative over these past twelve years. Even the last time around weapons inspectors were in Iraq in 1998, the Iraqi govt. never kicked them out - Richard Butler of UNSCOM gave the order for the team to be withdrawn prior to the ordering of strikes against Iraq.

Regarding the necessity for communicating - absolutely. i agree.

How does one communicate with a government that is so bent upon war, and not dialogue?

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In line with the original intent of this thread, re-posting some of Madiba’s comments from his speech to the International Women’s Forum:

Mandela blasts Bush on Iraq, warns of “holocaust”, Toby Reynolds Reuters AlertNet, 30 January 2003

…] Mandela said action without U.N. support was unacceptable and set a bad precedent for world politics. “Are they saying this is a lesson that you should follow, or are they saying we are special, what we do should not be done by anyone,” he said in his speech to the International Women’s Forum on the theme of Courageous Leadership for Global Transformation.

…] He also attacked the United States’s record on human rights, criticising the dropping of atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagaski in World War Two. “Because they decided to kill innocent people in Japan, who are still suffering from that, who are they now to pretend that they are the policeman of the world?..” he asked.

“lf there is a country which has committed unspeakable atrocities, it is the United States of America…They don’t care for human beings.”

But he said he was happy that people, especially those in the United States, were opposing military action in Iraq. “I hope that that opposition will one day make him understand that he has made the greatest mistake of his life,” Mandela said.

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** How does one communicate with a government that is so bent upon war, and not dialogue?**

I don't know.

Have no idea.

Suggestions are desperately needed. Please and thankyou.

Let's think of some.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
i think it is highly debatable whether or not Iraq has been uncooperative over these past twelve years.
[/QUOTE]
Nadia,
I understand and respect your feelings against the US going to war against Iraq, but I don't understand how you can use arguments such as this in good conscience. Has your frustration over the situation overshadowed your better judgment? Do you honestly believe that Iraq has been cooperative over these past 12 years?

[QUOTE]
How does one communicate with a government that is so bent upon war, and not dialogue?
[/quote]
How does one communicate with Saddam? Seriously, what kind of dialogue with Hussein would be productive? He has had 12 years to disarm. If he is serious, why haven't they provided detailed, documented, undeniable proof that they have dismantled their programs? Why isn't he more proactive to prove his good will?

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Seminole, while I do understand your point re talking to Saddam. It can't be easy to talk to a dictator such as Saddam.

But do tell how one ought to communicate with Bush Jr. as well, please. Would drawings, big and colourful, do the job?

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Seminole,
Thank you for understanding and respecting my feelings.

>>Has your frustration over the situation overshadowed your better judgment?<<
No, in my opinion i don't believe it has.

>>Do you honestly believe that Iraq has been cooperative over these past 12 years?<<
Yes, i do.
i think - esp. considering what "we" (by this i include my Canadian govt.) has done to their country, i really do believe that the country has shown quite a bit of cooperation. Please remember that i am not stating that "Saddam" is a 'good guy', i am not stating anything about his personality.
i acknowledge to yourself that it is not perfect cooperation on Iraq's side. Simultaneously, considering the initial terms of the embargo under Resolutions 687 and 986 (as well as the consequences of the sanctions in the ensuing 12 years), i really do believe that Iraq has shown remarkable cooperation considering that we have inflicted a genocide on their country. (Sorry).

>>How does one communicate with Saddam?<<
The same way one is able to communicate with Kim Jong II. First of all, no one expected Iraq to accept inspectors; they did. Next obstruction levelled at them was there was no way they would accept intrusions into private palaces. They did. Next obstruction was that they would never permit unannounced visits to sensitive facilities or plants. They have.

If i really could change the way i think about this, then i think i would. It hasn't won me anything on this Forum. Can i ask you a question now - why do you believe it would not be possible to have the sanctions lifted immediately and then continue the process of disarmament as set out under 687? Why not this route?

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole:

How does one communicate with Saddam?
[/QUOTE]

Ask Donald Rumsfeld he seems to know? :)

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Nadia,
I understand your opposition to the sanctions which have been deadly and ineffective. I understand your opposition to war. I understand your feeling that the US has not treated Iraq the same as it has other countries vis a vis UN Resolutions, but for the life of me, I can’t understand your view that Hussein has been cooperating for the past 12 years. What is your view of the list below? I hope it is not dismissd outright because it is from a US Govt site. If Hussein would spend some of the money he is currently spending on self-grandeur and oppression - on eductation and developing official government websites with pertinent UN Resolutions - I would post from there. In the interim:

Saddam Hussein’s Defiance of United Nations Resolutions

Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated each of the following resolutions:

UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990

Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq’s illegal invasion of Kuwait) “and all subsequent relevant resolutions.”

Authorizes UN Member States “to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area.”

UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991

Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.

Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.

Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.

UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991

Iraq must “unconditionally accept” the destruction, removal or rendering harmless “under international supervision” of all “chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities.”

Iraq must “unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material” or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.

Iraq must “unconditionally accept” the destruction, removal or rendering harmless “under international supervision” of all “ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related major parts and repair and production facilities.”

Iraq must not “use, develop, construct or acquire” any weapons of mass destruction.

Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify the elimination of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) verify elimination of Iraq’s nuclear weapons program.

Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.

Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.

Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead Kuwaitis and others.

Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.

UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991

“Condemns” repression of Iraqi civilian population, “the consequences of which threaten international peace and security.”

Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.

Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.

UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991

“Condemns” Iraq’s “serious violation” of UNSCR 687.

“Further condemns” Iraq’s noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.

Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.

Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.

Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.

Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994

“Condemns” Iraq’s recent military deployments toward Kuwait.

Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.

Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.

UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996

Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996

“Deplores” Iraq’s refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq’s “clear violations” of previous UN resolutions.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997

“Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access” to UN inspectors, which constitutes a “clear and flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.

UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997

“Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access” to UN inspectors, which constitutes a “flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.

UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997

“Condemns the continued violations by Iraq” of previous UN resolutions, including its “implicit threat to the safety of” aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.

Reaffirms Iraq’s responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the “severest consequences for Iraq.”

UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998

“Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with” UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes “a totally unacceptable contravention” of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.

Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998

“Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation” with UN inspectors as “a flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.

Iraq must provide “immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation” with UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999

Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).

Iraq must allow UNMOVIC “immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access” to Iraqi officials and facilities.

Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.

Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.

Saddam Hussein’s Defiance of United Nations Resolutions

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Lol! thats a very independant and neutral source youve used to get those resolutions from.. and what has it to do with why Nelson Mandela is angry?? .

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
Lol! thats a very independant and neutral source youve used to get those resolutions from.. and what has it to do with why Nelson Mandela is angry?? .
[/QUOTE]
Since when did neutral sources become necessary around here? That is the US govt's position - it is relevant. If you have problems with it, argue it on its merit, not its source.

And it is relevant to why Nelson Mandela is angry because he (like Nadia) does not take into account Iraq's culpability in this ongoing cat and mouse game.

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What a source…its count as credible as those Israeli government sources, and the links that you post which say that the US military has been infiltrated by communists. :hehe:

btw, does your White House link have this little picture in its collection?

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Seminole,
i'll accept the list that you have posted. i can't dispute that those are the relevant Resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq (personally speaking, i share all of DhP's perspectives about the source, but the Resolutions in and of themselves are accurate from the cursory glance i gave them). Just two questions for yourself - i might be mistaken but under the initial terms back in 1991, Iraqi forces were supposed to have left Kuwaiti land. They did. Correct? First question - why was the embargo not lifted subsequent to their expulsion?

Second question - why do you believe it would not be possible to have the sanctions lifted immediately and then continue the process of disarmament as set out under 687? What is wrong in your opinion with this route?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
First question - why was the embargo not lifted subsequent to their expulsion?

Second question - why do you believe it would not be possible to have the sanctions lifted immediately and then continue the process of disarmament as set out under 687? What is wrong in your opinion with this route?
[/QUOTE]
I feel like the embargo has been a failure and I think it should be lifted. I imagine the reasoning they use to keep it in effect is the list above that outlines Husseins reluctance to follow through with inspections and proof of disarmanent. I think they should use alternate means besides the embargo.

As for the link, I refuse to limit my reading and posting to non-US government sources only. The US government has more detailed and accurate data than any other source in the world. If Fisk's OPINIONS can be treated as gospel around here, surely FACTS from the US government can be referenced as well.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The US government has more detailed and accurate data than any other source in the world. If Fisk's OPINIONS can be treated as gospel around here, surely FACTS from the US government can be referenced as well.
[/QUOTE]
Official govt sources DO NOT always have accurate data, information, there is also alot of mis-information which is propogated. One can look back at history and read up about hoaxes and lies spread by these sources. The Kuwait Incubator Hoax was one of them.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
**I feel like the embargo has been a failure and I think it should be lifted. I imagine the reasoning they use to keep it in effect is the list above that outlines Husseins reluctance to follow through with inspections and proof of disarmanent. I think they should use alternate means besides the embargo.

As for the link, I refuse to limit my reading and posting to non-US government sources only. The US government has more detailed and accurate data than any other source in the world. If Fisk's OPINIONS can be treated as gospel around here, surely FACTS from the US government can be referenced as well.
[/QUOTE]
**

Thank you for a well-balanced answer, Seminole. i appreciate it.

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Mandela Criticizes US on Iraq](VOA - Voice of America English News) VOA news 05 Feb 03

Former South African president Nelson Mandela says the United States is undermining the United Nations by pushing for military action on Iraq.He told reporters in Johannesburg Wednesday the U.N. Security Council will listen only to weapons inspectors - not the United States - when deciding whether Iraq is concealing weapons of mass destruction.

Earlier Wednesday, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell told a special meeting of the U.N. Security Council Baghdad has ignored demands that it rid itself of such weapons. Mr. Mandela also said Wednesday the Iraqi government wants him to visit Baghdad. He said he will only go with United Nation’s approval. He added he has tried unsuccessfully to reach Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein by telephone to urge him to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors.

Last week, Mr. Mandela lashed out at President Bush, accusing him of not being able to think properly - and of wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust for oil. The South African elder statesman says he does not regret those remarks.

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<~~ AAG's thoughts.

Thinking that sanctions are benefiting IRAQ and are a + for Saddam to tell his people how evil and bad the U.S. is.

What a bonus even... WOW! The perfect reason to show the world the evil intentions of the U.S.

A political bonus to Saddam.

A way to rally his people against Americans and make the Iraq's forget about the fact that they cannot even write a letter to a newspaper and expect it to be published, unless.. approved by him and his media folk.

And... if one would dare to write a derogatory sentence..or semi-iffy?... The writer can expect a jail term or worse.......