Why gupshup is so dominated by overseas Pakistanis?

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41

Nilofer and u missed my point

Pakistani abroad do help in their own way. whether it is in the form of foriegn exchange, whether it is in the form of helping their families with education and business set up etc.

I have no problem in saying that overseas pakistanis have some respinsibility, but it is something we feel that we do.

I have an issue with the thought that overseas pakistanis must return to pakistan to help. Is it assumed that just because we are overseas we have not done anything for the country?

And this is where you missed my point. I can help Pakistan in one way, and people in Pakistan can help in another. I feel that every single pakistani that I know has done their level best to meet their commitments to their country...but at the same time i feel that had the pakistanis in pakistan shown 50% of that level of commitment we would be somehere else as a nation.

In no way do I mean that we dont have any responsibility, but the type of responsibility is different, the level of impact is different and the emphasis is different.

But sentences like "if you love pakistan, come back here and fix it" have no place..

42

Muzna your parents are not the only ones that left Pakistan. Secondly I am not poor me I am extremely proud of my country and culture. Everyone here keep saying that people that left the country had to face hardships they chose it themselves. Fraudia yes it is not all about money its about law and order situation and other things as well. All that I was trying to say in all these posts was that ex-pats chose to go out they are in no way better than the ones living here. They don't have a right to say that Pakistanis living here don't care. You can hurt someones feelings but if others response you can't listen.

43

Fraud,

I can sympathize on every count that you've mentioned. Our family made every single effort to return to Pakistan and settle there.

The same issues that you mentioned (i.e. kidnappings,integrity, honesty and mistrust) caused my brothers to uproot, yet again, and re-settle abroad. Originally when the family came to Canada they always thought of themselves as being in transit...believing and reminding themselves that they were one day going to return to their homeland. When their attempt to return backfired so badly, they abandoned all hopes and made peace with the fact that they would probably never be able to live there again.

Since then we have only been able to help from afar. I won't go into the specifics of the financial aid that collectively our family has provided to friends, relatives and associations in both India and Pakistan for fear of taking honour away from the act. Suffice it to say that there are many that would be without homes, families, health and education had we not contributed.

Although we don't expect anything material in return for our efforts, we don't deserve the disrespect and attitude that some people deem appropriate to shower upon us.

44

The rights and wrongs of ex-pats living abroad are not really relevant. I don't consider myself an ex-pat because I arrived in the UK at a very early age. It wasn't my decision.

I think Pakistanis need to wake up to the fact that they have to mould their own future. The fact is, most of the overseas pakistanis that visit this board don't really need to, they have their own lives, and if they choose, they can forget about Pakistan altogether. It won't affect us.

Pakistanis need to become self-sufficient first and foremost. Any help from ex-pats should be seen as a bonus, but it can't replace the dynamism of self-improvement.

I say, by all means, call the ex-pats bastards, rats deserting a sinking ship, etc. If it helps indiginous Pakistanis to realise that above all else, the future of the country they are living in is in their own hands then maybe it's a good thing.

45

MrFraudia, I did not misunderstand your point, in fact no where did I mention that Pakistanis need to come home to help the country out. And I also agree that those abroad can and should help, that's actually what I've been attempting to say!

The ONLY thing I picked on in your post were the words and I quote, "Why do I have to clean up the mess of others . . ." and "Why is it assumed that I have a responsibilty for something that I did not partake in, initiate or benefit from?"

That is ALL I mentioned in my reply to and said that, in my opinion, it's not the greatest way of thinking for people; 'if i didn't cause it, why should I fix it' will, I repeat, get us as a country, no where!

God Bless,
Nilofer

46

Nilofer,

For people like myself, Xtreme and Fraudia, who left the country while we were toddlers Fraudia's statement stands true.

We didn't make the mess. Although it may sound harsh, it's only fair to ask why we should be responsible for cleaning it up.

Had we benefitted from the country's existence, for example had we been educated there, then perhaps someone could argue that we have a moral responsibility to return the favour, even then it's a stretch. But under the current circumstances it's only the kindness of our hearts and sentimental loyalties that drive us to contribute to Pakistan.

In fact, if we get down to brass tacks...being known as Pakistani has sometimes served to hold us back. Not because we are ashamed of Pakistan, what did we know to be ashamed of, but because of the reputation that Pakistan has developed abroad.

fantastic1,

I don't recall suggesting that you are poor, nor did I imply that my parents are the only ones that left. And if you understand that much then perhaps you should have qualified your statements/questions/accusations to address only those that are guilty of "deserting" you.

Nobody has suggested that ex-pats are in any way better than the citizens living in Pakistan.

But if the ex-pats are making efforts to help out the nation, then yes, they have every right to suggest where the problem may lie.

As far as hurting someone's feelings is concerned, nobody is attempting to do that. We are simply discussing a very valid topic and frankly speaking, we are doing it very, very diplomatically. Much of what has been said, has been put delicately. I don't think anyone could have been more considerate.

47

Nilofer

those words were in response to the sentiment that overseas Pakistanis "need" to return to Pakistan to help the country.

How do I help, I am helping by getting Pakistanis running for elected office some more publicity so they can raise more funds.

By organizing regional meetings of Pakistani American Chambers of commerce with political activism and agenda as a key subject.

By helping run this site for communication and services.

By assisting family members with little resources get educational opportunities.

By working with people like Lord Nazir Ahmed of Rotherham, who is the first Pakistani origin person in House of Lords. Because he sets priorities and is in position to bring issues to surface at the highest levels.

This is the type of work I do to help Pakistan. Its not a whole lot..but this is the type of work I can do here. This is what I should do.

I believe the spehere of respinsibilities of Pakistanis in Pakistan and overseas Pakistanis do converge at some points, but not at all.

I can not, and should not be expected to "return" to Pakistan and help to prove my loyalty.

Local issues are best handled by Local people. I have limited ability to press a councilperson to step up with the general cleanliness efforts of an area...That is beyond what I can effectively do.

I have used strng words in my posts, to express a strong sentiment I have...hope you see the logic in types of responsibility..

48

Originally posted by Nilofer:
*in fact no where did I mention that Pakistanis need to come home to help the country out. *

Nilofer, not you but others have expressed this view..and I am staunchly against that view..

And I also agree that those abroad can and should help, that's actually what I've been attempting to say!

Which we have responded to in saying that people have different types of responsibility and I feel that overseas Pakistanis in general have done a good job although there can be more done.

*That is ALL I mentioned in my reply to and said that, in my opinion, it's not the greatest way of thinking for people; 'if i didn't cause it, why should I fix it' will, I repeat, get us as a country, no where! *

Lack of accountibility, lack of personal respsonsibility, lack of ethics and lack of respect for fellow citizens and the law is what will get us no where...and those are things Pakistanis in Pakistan have a bigger impact on...refer back to the sphere of responsibilities concept.

**

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited October 02, 2000).]

49

Fido, gotta have a computer with internet access...
gotta have problem-filled head...
gotta have passion for backhome...
gotta have a very mature attitude...
and more than anything else, gotta have practical experience with the issues at hand...

50

Fraudia, when you went through my post point by point, you can see there isn't much we disagree on. I don't mean to say that the only thing which is holding us back is this attitude of "i didn't do it, why should i fix it" (this attitude should be give a name, I'm sick of typing it repeatedely!! :)) but it definitely is, in my view, one of the things . . .

Just a point though, you address a post to me and continue to argue points which I agree with - even though I may be 'siding' with Fido and fantastic1 (if you can call it taking sides at all cuz really, the three of us don't agree in everything of this topic) it doesn't necessarily mean that their views are mine and once again, I repeat, I DO NOT feel that all Pakistanis must return to Pakistan, etc, etc, etc. But I still don't agree with that attitude. Most Pakistanis living in Pakistan aren't responsible for the state it is in either - should they just forgot it as well?!

The other point Muzna and Xtreme are making about how people abroad can just turn their back on Pakistan . . . well I don't hold the same view. Of course you can turn your back on Pakistan, anyone can. So it hasn't given you an education, or much of a reputation but (to me!) being a Pakistani has given me a nationality, an identity, it has formed who I am today, not to mention an awesome cricket team to cheer for (okay, not always so awesome but still!!!) and to me these things are very important and stop me from turning my back on it. Not everyone may agree, I don't want to argue this point because as far as I see, it's a matter of personal opinion.

God Bless,
Nilofer

51

Originally posted by Nilofer:

*Most Pakistanis living in Pakistan aren't responsible for the state it is in either - should they just forgot it as well?! *

Who is responsible then? if the people living in the country are not responsible for the state that it is in then who is..

They can forget it if they choose to, which it seems that they have, but realize that apathy by them in this arena affects them much more than it affects someone who is overseas.

It is only logical that the person who is affected the most would attempt to change the situation more.

..and I agree, we are in agreement in essence on this topic.

52

Nilofer says:

[quote]
The other point Muzna and Xtreme are making about how people abroad can just turn their back on Pakistan . . . well I don't hold the same view.
[/quote]

I don't really hold that view either. My point is Pakistanis can't afford to have the attitude that it is the responsibility of people outside the country to improve the situation inside.

Everybody is responsible for his own house, a point that Fraudia is making here as well I think.

There are many things I like about Pakistan, and I have done more than my share of defending the 'watan' as any regular here will know. But if there are things wrong in that country, and there is anywhere, then it makes sense for those people who are living there to improve their own conditions. If people are genuine then they will always find support from outside. Imran Khan's hospital receives large contributions from ex-pats, The Edhi foundation also gets generous donations.

And BTW, the cricket team is awesome, because the guys who play don't need to ask for assistance to win matches. They can do it with their own ability and no one can stop them. Whether they win or lose, it's in their own hands.

53

MrFraudia, my sentence wasn't clear and I apologise. What I meant to say is that not all Pakistanis at home are responsible for the troubles in Pakistan - should they hold the same attitude that since they didn't cause it, they shouldn't fix it? But really, your practical view point on the condition of Pakistan affecting those at home more than those abroad makes sense . . I just meant that as a general attitude, it's not a very positive one! That's all.

Xtreme, I don't feel that people at home RELY only on those abroad to help them but i do believe that they think that those abroad SHOULD do their share in helping Pakistan out.

Both of you are making the point about it really depending on the values and attitudes of each individual person and I feel that really, it does come down to that.

Xtreme, I'm confused about what you said about the cricket team. Maybe I'm just really tired or not very smart (both possible!), but I can't quite follow what you're saying . . . please explain!!

God Bless,
Nilofer

54

Nilofer,

it's after 10pm here now in the UK so I am assuming it must be about 2:am in Pakistan right now. Go to bed and get some rest. I'll come back tomorrow and try to explain that cricket analogy. I'm having trouble working out what I meant as well :)

55

It's not that the Net usage is less in Pak or anything, just that the Pakistanis living here don't find gupshup interesting enough. If they did, they would come here more often. I mean I recommended this site to loads of my pals and no one came here so...
If they took more interest in message boards about our country, the situation would've been different.
So don't say overseas Pakistanis are dominant....if they are, they've a very good reason :)

Who says nothing is impossible? I've been doing nothing all my life!

56

assalam u alikum,

"to summarize it, whenever this topic comes up I feel like my brother is saying, hey you left home and have your own pad..so you took the easy way out. While you have been away, The place got dirty, and is in a mess, and needs major repairs. I deal with it everyday. To show your love why dont you come back and fix this house and clean it up. Well bro, I love you and I love the house..but it did not get dirty and messy on its own, it did not get into shambles by chance. Fact is you were there and you made it that way, and if you did not, you did not try to stop it from becoming this way."

well said.(a sarcastic staement).

what i gather from your statement is that u have become to sentimental from whatever suffering u have faced, that u r unable to judge things more sensibily.well bro liston, i wont like to blame u anymore as i know that u r likely to take it more negative than i could ever imagine, but ok if u say we mess the things up, we did, not either i will tell u to look at the other aspect as i know that your mind is to much overshadowed by the hatered with your own nation-ly brothres that u wont bother to think about them.but ah! i have to tell u that pls give it a second thought, man we are 1, arent we.U are treating all in the sam way, yar if few are spoiled that dosent mean that every 1 is and even those spoiled 1 are like brotheren, arent they.and hey its my country, and i give it a damn if u say that it is dirty or whatever, if some of the nations' sons dosent prove to b that good as they should b that dosent mean that mother is bad.my country is a pure land, though devils lives here but the land remains pure, no pakistani(including overseas) can never ever think of harming the Pakistan, and those who did they are not Pakistani, so if u want to blame n e 1 blame them, Please dont acuse the nation or the country.

thats it.

P.S;i apologise if n e of my wordings hurts your feeling,

57

[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
**fido,

Is this gonna get into one of those "which came first the chicken or the egg" debates, because I'm not keen on participating in that.

If you are suggesting that I am wrong to express how I feel, then by your own standards, fantastic1 is wrong to accuse as well.

Now, if you are interested in getting pedantic, then no, we don't all choose to be where we are. I didn't ask to be brought into an environment where I faced discrimination. I would probably have been happier where the rest of the kids looked like me. But my parents made a decision and here I am.

As an adult certain circumstances dictate our lives as well. (e.g. As much as I'd like to live in UK where my husband has grown up and is well established, I am forced to be in Toronto for my mother's ill health...thereby putting unforseen stress and challenges on us.)

So you see...it's not as easy as saying one is right and the other is wrong. There are many more factors at play.....

**
[/quote]

assalam u alikum,

wel,well,well, look muzna ji, what i mean to say is that i agree with u, but what u think is that (which i defenitly think that u dont think, but i assume), only u have faced that kind of complusions, or only u have compromised, na! na! and never, well if i will tell u my story (which i wont as it is quit a loooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnggggg one) then their are always certain of ocasions, in my life where i have to compromise daily, so u r not the only blessed one.Other do face difficulties as well, God is even with every one.

           i also agree with the way u have expreseed(and bye the way who the hell am i to effect your way of expressing!<i am serious> ), but my conflict is why to accuse, well in my openion either one should have that much courage to resist(which mostly one dont have) or if he has to comprosie than atleast he shouldnt blame it, well whats the benifit of it(and defenitly u r not blaming).well thats my nature is, if i cant resist i accept, like a man((well u can also accept like a woman, it dosent matter), but ist my nature i dont have n e right to impliment myself on others(other wont like this either and wont even allow it), so i am really sorry if u have mind what i have said.

haan! one more thing it s ot like which comes the first egg or chicken, its like i am wrong or u r wrong so if u not right then ddefenitly i am wrong, simple, isn't it?

Just Regards,
Fido
:)

58

This is for all

I hope we stop this discussion now. But before that I have something to say I don't blame the ex-pats for the mess nor I want them to come back and clean it up. We hopefully will do it ourselves Insha Allah. I don't also think that People living in Pakistan are angels they definately are responsible for the mess but to say but when some of you say that ex-pats have nothing to do with the mess I would not agree because most left the country to find a better life there is no doubt about that. The Pakistanis that grew up abroad have nothing to do with the mess but than what people of my age have to do with the mess. We inhereted it. We grew up watching all this happening, there are no jobs, problems are increasing everyday. So we shall move out as well so that we and than our children can clame that we have nothing to do with the mess as most people our (the prices of property have decreased in Pakistan as people that can afford are leaving the country and selling their properties) So who will change this country who will clean this mess We all shall leave it but than there will be no Pakistan and no Pakistan forum that could be dominated by overseas Pakistanis. You may not get my point but what I am trying to say is not against anyone but it is for all of us to think. I know how much it hearts when the national anthem is played and no body stands up. It hearts real bad when i see people fight on small things. It hearts real bad when I see pictures of dead bodies covered with blood. It is not that we living in Pakistan don't care but I think people living here are simply tired of this which is a bad sign.

Can all of you that live in or outside Pakistan make a promise today that you will do atleast one good thing for the betterment of your country and will not do anything that will damage it.

I know all this might sound like stupid but I just hope you could feel the same pain.

btw Muzna I did not mean you called me poor I was talking about the poor me approach.

59

Well what happened here??
I post a message for Nilofer and it gets deleted could anybody tell me why????

CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

60

Xtreme, I don't live in Pakistan - my info has Pakistan for location cuz well, that's where I'm from and cuz I'd rather not tell everyone where I actually live . . make sense?

Fantastic, well said! btw, cm, what did you want to say to me?

God Bless,
Nilofer

[This message has been edited by Nilofer (edited October 03, 2000).]