Why gupshup is so dominated by overseas Pakistanis?

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Originally posted by fantastic1:

*No offense meant but you people or your parents choose the easy way out went abroad *

Leaving entire families and going to foriegn lands to work and support entire khandaans and make sure that the siblings get educated...that is not an easy way out. That is a very sacrificing, hard working, selfless and loyal way.

People had choices...people lost a lot during 1947. some families had individuals who chose to sacrifice being by their friends and family and went abroad, and supported an entire family to make it into something strong and successful. Others chose to stay...some did well by staying others did not. It is in no way the easy way out..

** to have a life that might be tough but in which they don't have to face problems that we do. **

Being called a paki in UK, a sand nigger in US or sadeeg/rafeeg in saudi arabia has its own problems. People assuming that just cuz u live abroad u have money growing out of trees and that they can hit you for loans that will never be paid back...and u doing it becuase u feel obligated. all the other things Muzna said...many many families face that here. a whole different set of problems..

** What are you guys doing for Pakistan.**

Bigger question is... what are Pakistanis in pakistan doing for Pakistan. Are we saying that people in Pakistan are so dependent on overseas pakistanis that if overseas pakistanis dont help the country will not go anywhere?

thats a sad sad reflection on Pakistanis in Pakistan. Is there a lack of will or lack of ability?

** Most of you don't even like sending money to your relatives through banks. **

read pakistan's economic reports in detail and you will see how much money continues to be sent by pakistanis abroad to pakistan.

and if you are referring to "hundi" system...whether the money goes thru banks or not..it eventually has financial impact on the ppl who get it..yes the country loses foriegn exchange but the economic impact on a local level can not be denied.

Can you blame overseas Pakistanis to go other routes now? I mean ppl sacrifice entire lives and their kids dont grow up spending time with grandparents and cousins just so they can one day come back and have a comfortable life...

life savings in dollar accounts are frozen..illegally..shameful amount of rupees offered as exchange.

riots, hatred, filth, corruption....a pakistani who is overseas not only does not benefit from it but had no part in starting it.

Yo are asking what Pakistanis overseas have done for Pakistan? well what have Pakistanis in pakistan done for pakistan except turning it into one of the most corrupt countries in the world....

Sure sure ppl will say it was the government and not an average citizen. Look around u, ppl abusing the system, how long distance phone calls are handled, how electricity is stolen, how people cheat on exams....how successful professionals and business people abused the yellow cab scheme to get cars for their own usage..and it was not considered "bad" but "smart" by those around them..

Maybe you are right..maybe overseas Pakistanis need to come rescue this nation from itself..because it seems like the nation has no will to do anything itself.

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited October 01, 2000).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:

[/quote]

U GO GUY!

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Good Answer there, Mr.Fraudia Ji.

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Thanks Fraud. I was trying to hold back but after reading the conviction and passion in your post, I realized that there is no need to hold back.

I've often wondered why we feel so obligated to help our nation prosper when there are several that are simply sitting there waiting for us to better their lives. Why do we feel so responsible? We didn't create the hell they might be living in. Perhaps it's just that we, having immigrated to another's land, recognize the importance and value of having our own nation.

I'd like to see what fido and fantastic1 have to say about the subject now.....

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Well i had been living as an expat from the day i was born and believe me its not at all an easy chore.We are the ones who really have to face the world as a Pakistani and we do it very very proudly.People living aboard have to defend our country when ever something bad is said about it and as you must be knowing that is done very often.But at least i never feel ashamed of my country,always defended and will always protect it even if i have to give my life for it.
Now i am living here in Pakistan and i have come across many many people specially teenagers who hate this place.Their comments are soo heartbreaking that believe me it didn't hurt that much when people from other nations commented on my country than it did to hear them.According to them Pakistan hasn't given them anything, it has no future,well obviously if we the younger generation who are considered to be the future of a nation say that there is no future then God help that nation!!!!!!

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Salam! I don't often post here but I do come by to see the posts once in a while and I felt I just had to add my opinion to this thread. Well, firstly, you people are arguing as if you're from two different nations - as if being a Pakistani living in Pakistan is different from a Pakistani living abroad. You know, we are the same people.

Second, it's pretty ridiculous arguing who has the easier life and who doesn't cuz as pointed out by Muzna and others, everyone has their share of difficulties. Besides, wasn't it your or your family's choice to move or stay behind? In that case, deal with it and don't go around saying how much each has or had to put up with . . .

What I don't agree with is the responsibilities which are being thrown across at each other from the two sides as if only one of them is responsible for our country. The way Fraudia asked why Pakistanis at home look to those abroad to help them is out is . . . well, isn't it the responsibilty of all Pakistanis to help out our country, regardless of where they're living? It's not as if those of you living abroad are doing those living at home A FAVOUR by helping it out . . MrFraudia said, "Bigger question is . . what are Pakistanis in Pakistan doing for Pakistan." Excuse my ignorance, but what makes that the 'bigger question'? Don't all of us have equal responsibility here?! Leaving the country doesn't make us any less Pakistani.

Also, the use of the word 'obligated' by Muzna - I'm sorry but the feeling that you are able to or are helping out your country should be a matter of pride; not something one feels obligated or not obligated in doing . . .

Anyway, that's all I have to say - or all I have the time to say! I'm not here looking for enemies, so hope no one's offended. Have a question for the controller of the board by the way, if I were to post a survey on this board, would that be okay? It's for a class presentation about how political situations or historical incidents affect relationships between average people today . . perfect example would be that of Pakistan and India - so would that be appropriate to be posted here or should I go to the politics board?

God Bless,
Nilofer

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To all guppies
I did not meant to accuse anyone nor I wanted to say that you love Pakistan less than us. But you hurt my feelings first. I do not klike those people that living here insult Pakistan and wish to go abroad. I suffer everyday due to such people. If you see people die around you everyday only than you can understand the pain. My own relatives went abroad saying we cannot spend an honest life here. My only question to you is who will change this place if all honest people will go abroad.
I am extremly sorry if I hurt your feelings honestlty I did not mean to.

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nyahmedi,
dear i have never acused n e 1 of n e thing i have just expressed my observation and it may b wrong.So pls dont take it like that.

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The main reason I think is not Info or any other thing it is just that when I tell all my pakistani friends via. e-mail about this they usually reply that they get on the Internet to get out not go back to Pakistan does that make any sense to y'all? They are to Impressed by the west that they can't think about Pakistan on the net. As a matter of fact Over-seas Pakistanis are more in love with pakistan than the Pakistani's them selves can you belive.when I went to Pakistan on August 14th I had no fun not Even did I know what was going on if it wern't for the calender!

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you are making me say what I don't want to say. Why don't you come to Pakistan and stay here for one year. Than we will discuss it if your opinion will not be the same as Pakistani youth's. You think I or other people living here do not love Pakistan and you do. well think the way you like. I don't mind. If Pakistan becomes as rich as America I am sure most of the overseas Pakistanis will come back. If you people love your country more than us why don't you come back and do something for it.

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I am sure , no one is getting the point of 'Fantastic1',
every one is trying to clear by::self,

The truth is that, majority of our community, living abroad uses filthy lango for Pakistan(that is diffrent story what I do with them, when I listen that...),
they dont even say thanks to that Paak dhartee, because of which they are here,

Nneway, people dunt take it personal, that might be applicable for other desis, which is ofcourse, ..\

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gr8 going nilofer, the best answer, u wouldnt have explained it in more better way then this,

think about it guys, we are One Nation, so be at it.

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[quote]
Originally posted by Nilofer:
Salam! I don't often post here but I do come by to see the posts once in a while and I felt I just had to add my opinion to this thread.
[/quote]

:) Glad to have you come out Nilofer. It's much more fun when everyone participates rather than just reading and keeping important opinions to themselves.

[quote]
**well, isn't it the responsibilty of all Pakistanis to help out our country, regardless of where they're living? It's not as if those of you living abroad are doing those living at home A FAVOUR by helping it out . . MrFraudia said, "Bigger question is . . what are Pakistanis in Pakistan doing for Pakistan." Excuse my ignorance, but what makes that the 'bigger question'? Don't all of us have equal responsibility here?! Leaving the country doesn't make us any less Pakistani.

Also, the use of the word 'obligated' by Muzna - I'm sorry but the feeling that you are able to or are helping out your country should be a matter of pride; not something one feels obligated or not obligated in doing . . .
**
[/quote]

It is the responsibility of all citizens to help out their country. Regardless of where they are living. That much I agree with. But Fraudia's "bigger question" is still applicable. Reason being that ex-pats are living in a different world. They are not a part of Pakistani society, nor are they a part of the voting public. The extent to which they can be involved in impacting/changing life in Pakistan is limited.

First and foremost responsibility for improving the conditions in Pakistan lies with Pakistani citizens living in the nation. Not because they are more Pakistani than ex-pats but because they have direct impact. (e.g. ex-pats in NY going on strike will not have the same results as will all of Karachi shutting down in protest.)

Helping to improve the country and provide it with the means necessary to progress is something that many ex-pats take pride in, myself included. However, attempts to make us feel obligated, as fantastic1 has done, are in bad taste and wreak of indolence.

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Thanks, Fido and thanks for the welcome, Muzna. Well, I think we're pretty much on the same basis here, I obviously misunderstood what you meant about the 'obligation' thing . . . about the bigger question, agree again. Of course, Pakistanis in Pakistan make a bigger impact but (here I retain my previous argument!) it should be the responsibilty of each and every Pakistani to do what they can do for their country, regardless of whether it makes as great an impact or not. Do you see what I'm saying?

Anyway, that was a short argument - I'm glad to see we all agree! :o)

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nilofer, no needs to thanx, infact i should thank you for explaining the stuff in such a beautiful manner.

Just Regards,
Fido
:)

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I am sorry I posted the message the whole responsibility of the state of the country lies on us. Ex-pats have nothing to do with it they are great people who left their country in trouble times to find a better living and call the ones living here bastards. Yes we are responsible and I am sure we will Insha Allah one day make this place peaceful and full of happiness. So that you people or your parents could come here once again. And respect their green pasports not greencards. I am extremly sorry once again.

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First and foremost responsibility for improving the conditions in Pakistan lies with Pakistani citizens living in the nation. Not because they are more Pakistani than ex-pats but because they have direct impact. (e.g. ex-pats in NY going on strike will not have the same results as will all of Karachi shutting down in protest.)

HAH!!!..errr…to my small mind…THAT didnt make sense…Like if one Pakistani is more responsible…and other doesnt give a about it (extreme cases)…you mean there is no difference in their Pakistaniat???..well Instead of thinking of negative stuff like strikes…Ex-pats should invest their extra resourses back in Pakistan…Like I have seen a lot of Pakistani who run all kinds of pakistani associations and all that stuff and have heaps in extra dough…but they really dont give a dime in contructive effort towards the country…

Mind you I am not in Pakistan…and have seen hardships of both sides…The life abroad how ever it is…have a heigher living standerd…BUT life in pakistan is…MORE…ummm cant think of a word…its…its…like…its…like living in your home VS living in a hotel…

ME ME ME!!!

Hey…can anyone tell me what clinton did with the Cigar???

fuee.tripod.com
[email protected] http://144.132.53.121/recent?0
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[This message has been edited by who—me (edited October 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited October 01, 2000).]

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Nilofer,

Yeah, we pretty much agree. It's just that some people should learn that "honey attracts more bees than vinegar".

fido,

Since Nilofer agrees with the rest of us, can we assume that you agree with us too?

fantastic1,

Actually, let me correct at least one part of your comment.....our parents left when the country was prosperous, not in bad times. So please, keep your "rats leaving a sinking ship" analogy at home with the rest of your "poor little me" approach. You have proven my point with your cynical words.

who me,

Read the entire thread and my paragraph will, perhaps, make sense to you then. If it doesn't then your analysis of yourself is correct.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by fantastic1:
** Well think the way you like. I don't mind. If Pakistan becomes as rich as America I am sure most of the overseas Pakistanis will come back. **

Money is not the only thing. My uncle made more money in Pakistan than he did here by opening his own hospital. Only to be kidnapped for obscene amount of ransom...

safety, knowing that you are living among people who have respect for others and will behave in a decent, civilized and human way..and if they cant do that, the police will make sure they pay for it..

*If you people love your country more than us why don't you come back and do something for it. *

Why dont we? lets just say My uncle went back after living in US for decades, got kidnapped, found out it was "the powers that be" behind that kidnapping and left Pakistan.

My father moved back with goals to set up a mill, held back on it due to political issues and lack of security. We received kidnap threats, to a point he told the myself and my bros who had moved to US to study, to not return to Pakistan since he would rather have us safe in US rather than be in danger in Pakistan.

Why? because at one time...taking the wrong means in anything was an exception and people who did it got an unfair advantage over others, whether it was in exams, jobs, business anything..but now..unless you take such means you are at an unfair disadvantage because everyone else is doing it. I hope you saw thw difference in these two conditions. dont know about everyone but I can not take part in such a system.

I value my honesty and integrity. Unfortunately, I also know that for me to get what I deserve in Pakistan, my talents and my work ethic is not going to be enough, and i will have to sacrifice my integrity for it. The solution is only logical that I dont go to Pakistan.

And unlike some, I lived in Pakistan for 2 years for my high school. I went back during undergrad for internships and went back after the undergrad to work there..and realized that I can not live and work there at this point.

What it brings me back to is that my father left pakistan a year or so after he finished his degree. He returned after 25 years with big hopes and big dreams...only to realize that the place had beeen turned into a mess by the irresponsibility of the masses that lived in Pakistan.

Did he benefit from the short cuts in Pakistan for career and business..No. Did any of us get through high school easier because we paid of examiners to get good grades and get into med school or engineering..NO? .. Did we pay off the phone guys and electricity guys to lower our bills, did we save on import taxes and duties and buy smuggled goods..NO. Did we stay quiet until the corruption problem became so huge thatit engulfed everything..NO.. we were not even there.

So why should I return? why do I have to clean up the mess of others just to prove my loyalty to Pakistan and love for Pakistan.
Why is it assumed that I have a responsbility for something I did not partake in, initiate, or benefit from.

Heck, were'nt we the ones who took the "easy way out" and thus were not in Pakistan when a nation stood still while the political and military elite turned the country into a caricature of what we had in our hearts.

Blaming politicians only goes so far, because they come from among the nation to represent it... why does the nation feel so powerless. Why has there not been a revolution a huge backlash against the system. Apathy of the people? or knowing that they would lose all the shortcuts they currently have. If millions of people do not have the ability/will/motivation to do anything for the place that they are in... how can pakistanis overseas be expected to make a change.

to summarize it, whenever this topic comes up I feel like my brother is saying, hey you left home and have your own pad..so you took the easy way out. While you have been away, The place got dirty, and is in a mess, and needs major repairs. I deal with it everyday. To show your love why dont you come back and fix this house and clean it up. Well bro, I love you and I love the house..but it did not get dirty and messy on its own, it did not get into shambles by chance. Fact is you were there and you made it that way, and if you did not, you did not try to stop it from becoming this way.

any confusions?

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited October 01, 2000).]

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MrFraudia, I'm sorry to hear that your family had to face so many difficulties and I am aware that there are many valid reasons as to why people feel the need to leave Pakistan and begin a new and better life elsewhere. Because no matter how much we go on and on about how we have a responsibilty to our country and so on, our personal needs are those which take first priority in our minds and hearts . . and so should be, no argument there.

Yet, the majority of us do feel we have SOME responsibilty in helping out our country. If this is to be done, then I'm sorry but MrFraudia, your attitude of "Well, I didn't cause the mess, why should I fix it?" will get us, as a country, absolutely no where.

You keep returning to the point that if people at home don't do anything, how can people abroad. As Muzna rightly pointed out, those at home have a greater direct impact BUT those abroad should do the best they can NOT just leave it on those at home feeling that's it their mess, they fix it.