[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Wise One: *
I believe in God because God exist. I am a science whizz as well, the more i read the stronger my belief gets.
As to basic force, yaar who is forcing you here? Just quit your critcism, alot of stereotypical views you hold, you manage to offend every muslim. Seems like you have a habit of imposing your idealogy.
[/QUOTE]
"I believe in God because God exist."
Is it not like that you are imposing your idealogy NOT by using arguments BUT forcefully.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
Read the Philosophy of David Hume, who has completely denied the Cause and Effect Principle with Proof. According to him, we only can use the principle of cause and effect in our daily life matters just as a matter of ease. Otherwise, he has completely denied cause and effect principle to be a real principle. He has detailed proofs in this connection. You yourself have to consult his writings for details.
However, as a matter of ease in this discussion, I accept the applicability of cause and effect principle. I am also ready to assume that the cause of this Universe is one. Now you should put your core arguments.
[/QUOTE]
thanks for your reply
Would you like to put forward your understanding of how the universe and humans came into being, was there a cause? and what is the reality of this cause?
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
AvgAmericanGirl:
Yes religion after all have a kind of phsychological hope. Philosophy and science, both are very cruel. I can wish your God should exist so that you may have hope that your beloved son is safe and sound. Please do not try to apply cruel arguments of philosophy to your God. Because You have the God who is loving, caring and an ulimate hope for you.
I am only fighting against people who have God, who teaches violence, who teaches not to make friends among other nations. Who is not the ultimate hope BUT IS AN ULTIMATE FEAR. Who has made Hell for every person who is not a true muslim. Who want us to worship him without knowing him. Who insists on a rigid, unflexible, unchangeable and not suitable social system for human kind.
[/QUOTE]
My God is loving, caring. My God is my ultimate hope, and my ultimate fear. Moses fell in awe when faced with a glimmer of the Almighty, his God is the same as mine. My God is the same as AAG's, and yes I am a Muslim.
Yes, some terrible things have been done in the name of Allah, but such things have been done in the name of Christianity. Is there not just brimstone for those who do not seek salvation in christ?
You do not need to worship Allah without knowing Him. Indeed He derides hollow prayers, He despises the hypocrite.
[QUOTE]
Who insists on a rigid, unflexible, unchangeable and not suitable social system for human kind.
[/QUOTE]
If our system is so rigid and unflexible, why is there so much variation in it? Do you have any idea how varied the social structure from morocco to oman to pakistan to malaysia is? There is not merely one single Islamic society, Islam is the balance, the determiner of good and evil.
a very interesting topic to discuss. however, my belief in God has not wavered by the slightest by these SCIENTIFIC views. i am studying sciences at the moment and i find that many scientific theories/principles do not explain everything down to the last electron on this planet. Here's something i've found for the non-believers, hope u will contemplate the meaning of it and i'm sure u'll find it interesting..... (P.s. i don't think it will change ur views, because u r so fixed on the view that God does not exist. i think that u manipulate scientific views to explain what u want to believe.......)
WHY SCIENCE FAILS TO EXPLAIN GOD ?
At an educational institution, "Professing to be wise, they became fools
....", so it happened one day. one Philosophy Professor entered in class room .... Prof. is in a mood to climb over new class. So he started his lecture .............
Prof: "Let me explain the problem science has with God."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his new class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
Prof: "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?"
Std: "Yes, sir."
Prof: "So you believe in God?"
Std: "Absolutely."
Prof: "Is God good?"
Std: "Sure! God's good."
Prof: "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
Std: "Yes."
The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment.
Prof: "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
Std: "Yes sir, I would."
Prof: "So you're good...!"
Std: "I wouldn't say that."
Prof: "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could ... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."
Std: [No answer.]
Prof: "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
Std: [No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic.
Prof: "No, you can't, can you?"
Professor takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.
Prof: "Let's start again, young fella." "Is God good?"
Std: "Er... Yes."
Prof: "Is Satan good?"
Std: "No."
Prof: "Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters.
Std: "From... God..."
Prof: "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"
The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience.
Prof: "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Muslim.
Prof: "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
Std: "Yes, sir."
Prof: "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
Std: "Yes."
Prof: "Who created evil?
Std: [No answer]
Prof: "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet.
Std: "Yes."
Prof: "Who created them? "
Std: [No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student.
Prof: "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME,PLEASE!"
The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In still small voice he says:
Prof:"God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
Std: [No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerised.
Prof: "Tell me,"
He continues.
contd.
Prof: "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world.
Prof: "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
Std: [No answer]
Prof: "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" .... Pause ..... "Don't you?"
The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,
Prof: "Is God good?"
Std: [No answer]
Prof: "Do you believe in God, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks.
Std: "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly.
Prof: "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you."
Prof: "You have never seen God, Have you? "
Std: "No, sir. I've never seen Him."
Prof: "Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?"
Std: "No, sir. I have not."
Prof: "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
Std: [No answer]
Prof: "Answer me, please."
Std: "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
Prof: "You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
Std: "No, sir."
Prof: "Yet you still believe in him?"
Std: "...Yes..."
Prof: "That takes FAITH!"
The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
Prof: "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
Std: [The student doesn't answer]
Prof: "Sit down, please."
The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand.
Std2: "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles.
Prof: "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Muslim looks around the room.
Std2: "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
Prof: "Yes,"... "There's heat."
Std2: "Is there such a thing as cold?"
Prof: "Yes, son, there's cold too."
Std2: "No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues.
Std2: "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'Cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
Std2: "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
Prof: "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
Std2: "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
Prof: "Yes..."
Std2: "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester.
Prof: "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
Std2: "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic.
Prof: "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
Std2: "Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
Prof: "Explain... oh, explain..."
The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
Std2: "You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim explains.
Std2: "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it.
Std2: "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
Prof: "Of course there is, now look..."
Std2: "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?"
The Muslim pauses.
Std2: "Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming colour. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Muslim continues.
Std2: "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? Islam tells us it is to see if each one of us will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles.
Prof: "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
Muslim replies.
Std2: "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me,professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
Prof: "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
Std2: "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
Std2: "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
The professor hisses.
Prof: "I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?"
Std2: "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
Prof: "I believe in what is - that's science!"
The student's face splits into a grin.
Std2: "Ahh! SCIENCE!"
Std2: "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
The professor splutters.
Prof: "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?"
The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided.
Std2: "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room.
Std2: "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen, molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor.
Std2: "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"
No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly.
Std2: "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I declare that the professor has no brain."
The Muslim sits... Because that is what a chair is for!!!
WHY SCIENCE FAILS TO EXPLAIN GOD? NOW IT IS EVERYONE'S CHANCE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ISLAM, ABOUT GOD, ABOUT THE PURPOSE OF EXISTENCE, CREATION & LIFE, ABOUT THE PROPHETS OF GOD, & ABOUT HIS HOLY BOOKS, ESPECIALLY THE HOLY QUR'AN. THEN IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO BECOME A MUSLIM, OR NOT.
ALLAH says in Holy Quran "THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION"
In the Qur’an,
"There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; And he who rejects false deities and believes in Allaah (The God) has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. and Allaah is ALL-Hearing, All-Knowing(256) "
"Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; As for those who disbelieve, their guardians are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness...(257)"
AL-QUR'AN (CHAPTER # 2, VERSES # 256-257) (They are much nicer and more sound in Arabic)
i urge all the non-believers to read the Qur'an to find out any relevant information, if u read it, u will Inshallah come to know that it is the true word of God. If Allah (SWT) wills......
Peace be with u....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
"I believe in God because God exist."
Is it not like that you are imposing your idealogy NOT by using arguments BUT forcefully.
[/QUOTE]
Where do you get the notion of imposing? i am talking about “my” belief and reason behind it. "My" is the key word. If expressing my ideas is threatening to you then i think problem is in the way you perceive it.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by malikhan1983: *
thanks for your reply
Would you like to put forward your understanding of how the universe and humans came into being, was there a cause? and what is the reality of this cause?
[/QUOTE]
Yes it is the most difficult thing to know how the universe and humans came into being. There are theories that this universe is a real thing. That the matter really exists. What we find in this universe are only the different combinations of matter and energy. Of what thing this matter and energy is made of..?? How and why they make different combinations...?? I think these are the core questions to which physical sciences are trying to find out correct and detailed answers. What presently we know about these things, all has come from Rational Thinking, Logic and the application of scientific mathod such as critical analysis, experimental testing etc.
So we know that matter is made up of building blocks known as atoms. Atoms are futher divisible into certain "fundamental Particals". Why fundamental particles join each other to make atom..?? Scientists has found some forces of attraction and repultion between these fundamental particals who are responsible to keep join these fundamental particals to make an atom. Atoms are of different kind. Scientists have found nearly 92 different kind of atoms that occur in nature. Scientists also have made some other kind of atoms THAT DO NOT OCCUR IN NATURE. What are these different kinds of atoms..?? Atoms differ from each other on the basis of number of protons present in the nucleus of atom. For example Hydrogen atom have only one proton in its nucleus and Carbon atom have 12 protons in its nucleus.
Each distinct atom is also known as smallest building block of its corresponding element. Thus Hydrogen is an element and its smallest building block that still have all the qualities of Hydrogen is the "atom of Hydrogen".
These different kinds of atoms can make countless different combinations with each other to form "compounds". Every compound is different from any other compound in its physical and chemical properties. There may be as simple compounds as Water and as complicated compounds as DNA molecule.
What is a DNA molecule..??? It is a very very complicated combination of only few atoms i.e carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Sulpher and Nitrogen etc. This DNA molecule is the core basis of all the known life forms. The complecated structure of DNA molecule has acquired the property known as "Replication". DNA molecules can replicate to "generate" other similar DNA molecules. These DNA molecules are so much complicated that they contain "codes" to build a complete living organism.
And the energy is also a manifestation of matter. There are different kinds of energies. We also know various charactristics of energy. Energies play important role in making different kinds of combinations of atoms.
Now we know what is this universe made of and how living things came into being.
The still ananswered question is that how matter and enrgy originated...?
Science theories maintain that matter and enery can neither be created nor can be destroyed. They only can transform in other forms (combinations). Thus accoording to this principle, MATTER AND ENERGY HAVE NEVER BEEN "CREATED" OR "ORIGINATED" BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS PRESENT IN THE UNIVERSE.
This is my understanding of nature and cause of universe and living beings.
And what about the reality of this cause...?? Yes, your this question is still unanswered in my this post. Shell try to answer this after viewing your response.
Thanks.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
And the energy is also a manifestation of matter. There are different kinds of energies. We also know various charactristics of energy. Energies play important role in making different kinds of combinations of atoms.
Now we know what is this universe made of and how living things came into being.
The still ananswered question is that how matter and enrgy originated...?
Science theories maintain that matter and enery can neither be created nor can be destroyed. They only can transform in other forms (combinations). Thus accoording to this principle, MATTER AND ENERGY HAVE NEVER BEEN "CREATED" OR "ORIGINATED" BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS PRESENT IN THE UNIVERSE.
This is my understanding of nature and cause of universe and living beings.
And what about the reality of this cause...?? Yes, your this question is still unanswered in my this post. Shell try to answer this after viewing your response.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
i have seen that u like to think with fixed rules inside ur mind. if u think about it, all of these laws have been created by man, of course by research and experiments etc etc. but what if all of this energy/mass was put onto Earth by God in the first place? then u could apply all of these rules which make sense to scientists and intellects but what about the person with just the basic common sense?? u cannot measure God, God is a Supreme Being that we as humans cannot understand. we have been given limited knowledge and brains to contemplate on things that we are superior to. However, we cannot apply the same rules to God because we do not know how to.
the question is why god needs to be legitimised by human?
if there is only animals in earth there is no need for god?
god exists only for humans ? if no humans to pray to god still
there is some supreme force working.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
My God is loving, caring. My God is my ultimate hope, and my ultimate fear. Moses fell in awe when faced with a glimmer of the Almighty, his God is the same as mine. My God is the same as AAG's, and yes I am a Muslim.
Yes, some terrible things have been done in the name of Allah, but such things have been done in the name of Christianity. Is there not just brimstone for those who do not seek salvation in christ?
You do not need to worship Allah without knowing Him. Indeed He derides hollow prayers, He despises the hypocrite.
If our system is so rigid and unflexible, why is there so much variation in it? Do you have any idea how varied the social structure from morocco to oman to pakistan to malaysia is? There is not merely one single Islamic society, Islam is the balance, the determiner of good and evil.
[/QUOTE]
If your God is loving, caring and ultimate hope for you. And you consider yourself a muslim. Then you are true muslim in my view. I also can believe in such a God. If I believe in such a God and start considering myself a muslim, Will you and other muslim members on this forum accept me a muslim..????Will your God not put me in the Hell..???
You also have mentioned that your God is also an ultimate fear for you. What is the need of this fear...??
You accept that some terrible things have been performed in the name of Allah but you dishonestly have not accepted that such terrible things in the name of Allah also have been performed by (some) muslims (besides others).
Your system is rigid and unflexible only theoratically. It is not practically as rigid and unflexible. It is due to the fact that your whole theoratical religion is not practicable in the real world.
So during the study of science you have found that not all the questions of the universe have been answered by the science…
Sister, you have come up to right conclusion in this respect. Science do not and cannot offer each and every question about the universe.** But whatever the answers science has offered or can offer ARE VALID AND TRUE Answers. Because they can be proved to be true. So scientific answers are authentic answers.**
Your religion, on the other hand, attempts to answer each and every question of the universe. Some of the answers may be true and other may be wrong. Most of the answers by your religion are not provable to be true. What you think about the authensity of such answers in this context..??? Why your mind becomes satisfied to such unproved answers…??? I also have consulted most of the answers to universal problems offered by your religion. I consider these answers to be unsatisfactory rather misleading.
Here’s something i’ve found for the non-believers, hope u will contemplate the meaning of it and i’m sure u’ll find it interesting… (P.s. i don’t think it will change ur views, because u r so fixed on the view that God does not exist. i think that u manipulate scientific views to explain what u want to believe…)
WHY SCIENCE FAILS TO EXPLAIN GOD ?
At an educational institution, “Professing to be wise, they became fools
…”, so it happened one day. one Philosophy Professor entered in class room … Prof. is in a mood to climb over new class. So he started his lecture …
Prof: “Let me explain the problem science has with God.”…
You have copied a dialouge from some where and have copied here with fear that I will contemplate the meaning of it or at least my scientific views to counter this “very important” dialouge.
Miss. May Your God give you Nijjat, you have copy pasted this dialouge without knowing the history of what is contained in this dialouge which is perhaps written by some optimistic muslim or by some dishonest muslim.
The issue of presence of evil in this universe was not first started in this class room. This issue had been in focus in ancient times even before the origin of Islam. And the “satifactory” answers given by the muslim student are not the ones which are given by islam in any period in history.
These “satisfactory” answers that evil is just the absence of good just like darkness is just the absence of light…were first given by ancient prominent religious scholar Saint Augustine.
Saint Augustine on the Problem of Evil.
Consider the views of Saint Augustine on the problem of evil and in future never try to copy paste this dialouge in support of your religion.
Saint Augustine on the Problem of Evil
Enchiridion, 10-12
…And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present–namely, the diseases and wounds–go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, (2) but a defect in the fleshly substance–the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils–that is, privations of the good which we call health–are accidents. (3) Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else.
Translated by Marcus Dods (1876).
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
Yes it is the most difficult thing to know how the universe and humans came into being. There are theories that this universe is a real thing. That the matter really exists. What we find in this universe are only the different combinations of matter and energy. Of what thing this matter and energy is made of..?? How and why they make different combinations...?? I think these are the core questions to which physical sciences are trying to find out correct and detailed answers. What presently we know about these things, all has come from Rational Thinking, Logic and the application of scientific mathod such as critical analysis, experimental testing etc.
So we know that matter is made up of building blocks known as atoms. Atoms are futher divisible into certain "fundamental Particals". Why fundamental particles join each other to make atom..?? Scientists has found some forces of attraction and repultion between these fundamental particals who are responsible to keep join these fundamental particals to make an atom. Atoms are of different kind. Scientists have found nearly 92 different kind of atoms that occur in nature. Scientists also have made some other kind of atoms THAT DO NOT OCCUR IN NATURE. What are these different kinds of atoms..?? Atoms differ from each other on the basis of number of protons present in the nucleus of atom. For example Hydrogen atom have only one proton in its nucleus and Carbon atom have 12 protons in its nucleus.
Each distinct atom is also known as smallest building block of its corresponding element. Thus Hydrogen is an element and its smallest building block that still have all the qualities of Hydrogen is the "atom of Hydrogen".
These different kinds of atoms can make countless different combinations with each other to form "compounds". Every compound is different from any other compound in its physical and chemical properties. There may be as simple compounds as Water and as complicated compounds as DNA molecule.
What is a DNA molecule..??? It is a very very complicated combination of only few atoms i.e carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Sulpher and Nitrogen etc. This DNA molecule is the core basis of all the known life forms. The complecated structure of DNA molecule has acquired the property known as "Replication". DNA molecules can replicate to "generate" other similar DNA molecules. These DNA molecules are so much complicated that they contain "codes" to build a complete living organism.
And the energy is also a manifestation of matter. There are different kinds of energies. We also know various charactristics of energy. Energies play important role in making different kinds of combinations of atoms.
Now we know what is this universe made of and how living things came into being.
The still ananswered question is that how matter and enrgy originated...?
Science theories maintain that matter and enery can neither be created nor can be destroyed. They only can transform in other forms (combinations). Thus accoording to this principle, MATTER AND ENERGY HAVE NEVER BEEN "CREATED" OR "ORIGINATED" BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS PRESENT IN THE UNIVERSE.
This is my understanding of nature and cause of universe and living beings.
And what about the reality of this cause...?? Yes, your this question is still unanswered in my this post. Shell try to answer this after viewing your response.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks again
I read all of your reply and understood from it, that you believe that matter/energy is the starting point and every effect is dependent upon it.
Your post shows that you dont actually have a problem with the concept of a starting point which is eternal, because you believe the first cause of everything to be matter/energy and you also believe that energy/matter does not have a starting point i.e. it was always there. So again you dont actually have a problem with the starting point being eternal.
Ok, so finally our discussion can focus upon matter/energy, and can matter be the cause of the universe, and is matter independent and eternal?
So I will present to you a rational and factual argument, which cannot be disputed with because of its agreement with the reality.
When we observe with our senses the transformation of matter/energy from one form to another, we will see that it is unable to change from one form to another independently(without a cause). It is rather in need and dependent upon other things when transformation of matter/energy occurs.
So our senses show that matter/energy are needy and dependent upon other than itself to change forms.
So, as an example, water is in need of heat in order to change to vapour. So both water and heat are available, but the transformation requires more than just the availability of heat and water, it requires a specific proportion of heat to be imposed upon it, then and only then will transformation will occur.
This pattern of matter/energy being needy and dependent (for transformation) exists in reality and cannot be disputed.
So we can see that matter is in need of that thing which determines the proportion ( in the case of water, proportion of heat).
The fact that matter/energy is in need of something, indicates the pre-existence of something before it.
So as an example, when walking in the park and you see a football rolling, you know that the football is unable to roll by itself, but rather it requires someone to kick it and so it is dependent upon something else. So the fact that it is rolling, indicates that somebody existed before who kicked th ball.
So matter cannot change into various forms without the need of help. So it is weak and dependent on something which causes its transformation. this cause is something which must have existed before energy.
So matter is definately not independent. Matter is also weak and needy and the unlimited-eternal entity cannot possess these qualities.
Also the eternal-unlimited entity must have the ability to create something from nothing, as it is considered the cause for all the universe. We see matter/energy does not have the ability to create something from nothng. But we see that things exist in the universe but none of these things have the ability to create.......
So the creator is other than matter/energy. it is an entity that created matter and created energy and placed all the limitations on matter and energy. it is the one that desinged the complicated DNA molecule which has sophisticated coding, which programmed the human body with the immune system.
before I discuss the reality of the first eternal cause, i'l wait for your respose.
ali
Interesting to read all these people asking the question why do u believe and all those who are trying to answer the above question.
I don't understand one thing that is....
Those who don't believe why do they have to ask the question to those who do believe? Now if you don't believe than be it like that you should be staisfied with your thoughts or your outcome about not believing in but than why do u have to ask others that why do they believe? Just be like that and you will find out FOR SURE when you die...I can say that FOR SURE :) have paitence if not than go kill yourself and you will find out FOR SURE :)
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
If your God is loving, caring and ultimate hope for you. And you consider yourself a muslim. Then you are true muslim in my view. I also can believe in such a God. If I believe in such a God and start considering myself a muslim, Will you and other muslim members on this forum accept me a muslim..????Will your God not put me in the Hell..???
[/QUOTE]
only Allah knows who He will consign to Hell. Believe in his oneness, follow the righteous path, and Allah is never unjust. Islam is said to be the most direct path, it is never said to be the only path, to my knowledge. Beyond that I, and indeed nobody else, can or should speculate.
As for your being Muslim, I believe the criterion is that you believe there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad (saw) is his prophet. If you believe that, then you are Muslim.
[QUOTE]
You also have mentioned that your God is also an ultimate fear for you. What is the need of this fear...??
[/QUOTE]
God is the Ultimate. He is the Ultimate form of Love, the ultimate form of Fury.
God has never been defined by the subjective, passing sensitivities of man. God is not what you think Him to be. God is.
[QUOTE]
You accept that some terrible things have been performed in the name of Allah but you dishonestly have not accepted that such terrible things in the name of Allah also have been performed by (some) muslims (besides others).
[/QUOTE]
my intent was that some terrible things have been done by those acting in "Allahs" name...the muslims.
[QUOTE]
Your system is rigid and unflexible only theoratically. It is not practically as rigid and unflexible. It is due to the fact that your whole theoratical religion is not practicable in the real world.
[/QUOTE]
tell me what you mean by my rigid and unflexible theoretical system and your argument will have any validity.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do you believe?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by malikhan1983: *
Thanks again
I read all of your reply and understood from it, that you believe that matter/energy is the starting point and every effect is dependent upon it.
Your post shows that you dont actually have a problem with the concept of a starting point which is eternal, because you believe the first cause of everything to be matter/energy and you also believe that energy/matter does not have a starting point i.e. it was always there. So again you dont actually have a problem with the starting point being eternal.
Ok, so finally our discussion can focus upon matter/energy, and can matter be the cause of the universe, and is matter independent and eternal?
So I will present to you a rational and factual argument, which cannot be disputed with because of its agreement with the reality.
When we observe with our senses the transformation of matter/energy from one form to another, we will see that it is unable to change from one form to another independently(without a cause). It is rather in need and dependent upon other things when transformation of matter/energy occurs.
So our senses show that matter/energy are needy and dependent upon other than itself to change forms.
So, as an example, water is in need of heat in order to change to vapour. So both water and heat are available, but the transformation requires more than just the availability of heat and water, it requires a specific proportion of heat to be imposed upon it, then and only then will transformation will occur.
This pattern of matter/energy being needy and dependent (for transformation) exists in reality and cannot be disputed.
So we can see that matter is in need of that thing which determines the proportion ( in the case of water, proportion of heat).
The fact that matter/energy is in need of something, indicates the pre-existence of something before it.
So as an example, when walking in the park and you see a football rolling, you know that the football is unable to roll by itself, but rather it requires someone to kick it and so it is dependent upon something else. So the fact that it is rolling, indicates that somebody existed before who kicked th ball.
So matter cannot change into various forms without the need of help. So it is weak and dependent on something which causes its transformation. this cause is something which must have existed before energy.
So matter is definately not independent. Matter is also weak and needy and the unlimited-eternal entity cannot possess these qualities.
Also the eternal-unlimited entity must have the ability to create something from nothing, as it is considered the cause for all the universe. We see matter/energy does not have the ability to create something from nothng. But we see that things exist in the universe but none of these things have the ability to create.......
So the creator is other than matter/energy. it is an entity that created matter and created energy and placed all the limitations on matter and energy. it is the one that desinged the complicated DNA molecule which has sophisticated coding, which programmed the human body with the immune system.
before I discuss the reality of the first eternal cause, i'l wait for your respose.
ali
[/QUOTE]
You are ready to accept that matter/energy has no origin and they were always present. But you think that matter/energy cannot make delicate combinations with each other by themself. So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy. This external entity is responsible for making all the delicate organizations of already existed matter/energy. This external entity makes delicate organizations of matter/energy using its eternal intelligence.
Well, this theory is not easy to reject. I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds. But as a rationalist, I shall analyze this theory on other aspects also. A subsidary question arises here which I want to ask right here. The theory that matter/energy already existed and God only made delicate combinations of them IS ALREADY AVAILABLE IN ANCIENT HINDU PHILOSOPHY. On the other hand, I cannot find any base of such a theory in any of Islamic Literature. Islam catagorically says that only God existed for ever. Then God "created" all things including matter/energy. Then God made delicate organizations of this "created" matter/energy using his absolute intelligence.
The question is if I have to believe in God in this way, then why not to accept Hinduism and why to accept Islam....????
Now I shall try to analyze other aspects of this theory. According to your understanding, matter/energy cannot make delicate organizations by themself. Only an external intelligent entity can make such fine organizations. Ok! But I can see opposite situation to be possible also. We know that water always flows downside. Why..??? Infact water has more potential energy at upper altitude than to lower. Water has TENDENCY IN ITSELF to lower its extra energy level to reach at "Balanced" state of energy. That is why water automatically flows downside. It has to reach its balanced energy state. And the fact is that all the matter in the universe has this "automatic tendency" to remain in a "balanced" state of energy. Thus if an atom acquires extra enery (due to volcanic erruption etc.), it will get an automatic tendency to get rid of this extra energy and to reach to its "balanced" energy state again. Therefore, this atom, by itself, either has to extract the extra energy, or it has to find another atom who will absorbe this extra enrgy. In this way they shall form acombination and this combination which is a molecule is in its "balanced" state of energy. If the extra energy atom finds another atom easily, it will usually results in simple molecule. But if other atoms with desired energy level are not easily found, then this atom has to make very very complicated combinations with other atoms. Thus DNA molecule can come into being in this way. DNA molecule in its normal state, is a stable molecule, i.e. it is at its "balanced energy state". But due to its very complicated structure, DNA molecule is always in dangour of losing its "balanced" energy state. But the DNA molecule is complicated enough that it has acquired a kind of "intelligence". It is now self caring. It can search for food, sunshine etc. just to keep its energy level in "balanced state". DNA molecule also can replicate thus produce other similar DNA molecules.
This DNA molecule is able to adopt itself to the changing enviornment and conditions. It can receive input from external world and can update its "gene code" to keep surviving in the changing world. And this is the core essense of evolution process. And the best available result of this evolution process is the Human Being.
There are other aspects also but now I need to view your comments.
Thanks.
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ravage:
"only Allah knows who He will consign to Hell. Believe in his oneness, follow the righteous path, and Allah is never unjust. Islam is said to be the most direct path, it is never said to be the only path, to my knowledge. Beyond that I, and indeed nobody else, can or should speculate."
How will you disprove If I say that I will not go to Hell because no such Hell exists...??? What is the proof that Islam is most direct path...?? If Islam is most direct path, then which Islam is most direct path...?? Is it Shiaism, Bralvism, Deobandism, Wahabism, Ahmedyism or some other sect. These are so many different paths.
"As for your being Muslim, I believe the criterion is that you believe there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad (saw) is his prophet. If you believe that, then you are Muslim."
Even after considering myself muslim I will never assured of being muslim throughout my life. I cannot believe in Allah because I am not assured of even his existance. Muhammad (saw) may be his prophet but I have no personal knowledge in this respect. How can I believe in such things....??
"God has never been defined by the subjective, passing sensitivities of man. God is not what you think Him to be. God is."
God is not conceavable using any method. Dose it not imply that God do not exist...???
my intent was that some terrible things have been done by those acting in "Allahs" name...the muslims.
Its OK
tell me what you mean by my rigid and unflexible theoretical system and your argument will have any validity.
Yes theoratically Islam is very rigid and unflexible religion. Quran is considered to be the final word of God. Now God will never talk to human being. Muslims therefore are (theoratically) bound to apply all teachings of Quran in as it is form for all times to come. Practically it is not being done any where in Muslim world. It has two meanings. First meaning is that whole Muslim World is conducting sin for not following quranic teachings in as it is form. Second meaning is that Actually Islamic Theoratical teachings are not practicable in the real world.
first and foremost, let me make something clear. i posted that “copy and paste” dialogue to get a point across. i DID NOT post it as a teaching of Islam. it was to show u that Science is not always correct and it cannot explain everything. Secondly, can i ask: what is ur religion?
new technologies threaten the tradtional beliefs so fundamnetalists
fear the unknown afraid it may make their regid dogmatic faith
will become irrelavant.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why do you believe?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
You are ready to accept that matter/energy has no origin and they were always present. But you think that matter/energy cannot make delicate combinations with each other by themself. So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy. This external entity is responsible for making all the delicate organizations of already existed matter/energy. This external entity makes delicate organizations of matter/energy using its eternal intelligence.
Well, this theory is not easy to reject. I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds. But as a rationalist, I shall analyze this theory on other aspects also. A subsidary question arises here which I want to ask right here. The theory that matter/energy already existed and God only made delicate combinations of them IS ALREADY AVAILABLE IN ANCIENT HINDU PHILOSOPHY. On the other hand, I cannot find any base of such a theory in any of Islamic Literature. Islam catagorically says that only God existed for ever. Then God "created" all things including matter/energy. Then God made delicate organizations of this "created" matter/energy using his absolute intelligence.
The question is if I have to believe in God in this way, then why not to accept Hinduism and why to accept Islam....????
Now I shall try to analyze other aspects of this theory. According to your understanding, matter/energy cannot make delicate organizations by themself. Only an external intelligent entity can make such fine organizations. Ok! But I can see opposite situation to be possible also. We know that water always flows downside. Why..??? Infact water has more potential energy at upper altitude than to lower. Water has TENDENCY IN ITSELF to lower its extra energy level to reach at "Balanced" state of energy. That is why water automatically flows downside. It has to reach its balanced energy state. And the fact is that all the matter in the universe has this "automatic tendency" to remain in a "balanced" state of energy. Thus if an atom acquires extra enery (due to volcanic erruption etc.), it will get an automatic tendency to get rid of this extra energy and to reach to its "balanced" energy state again. Therefore, this atom, by itself, either has to extract the extra energy, or it has to find another atom who will absorbe this extra enrgy. In this way they shall form acombination and this combination which is a molecule is in its "balanced" state of energy. If the extra energy atom finds another atom easily, it will usually results in simple molecule. But if other atoms with desired energy level are not easily found, then this atom has to make very very complicated combinations with other atoms. Thus DNA molecule can come into being in this way. DNA molecule in its normal state, is a stable molecule, i.e. it is at its "balanced energy state". But due to its very complicated structure, DNA molecule is always in dangour of losing its "balanced" energy state. But the DNA molecule is complicated enough that it has acquired a kind of "intelligence". It is now self caring. It can search for food, sunshine etc. just to keep its energy level in "balanced state". DNA molecule also can replicate thus produce other similar DNA molecules.
This DNA molecule is able to adopt itself to the changing enviornment and conditions. It can receive input from external world and can update its "gene code" to keep surviving in the changing world. And this is the core essense of evolution process. And the best available result of this evolution process is the Human Being.
There are other aspects also but now I need to view your comments.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
Hi
I think you have misunderstood my post. My post actually disproves that matter/energy is eternal, in fact it highlights the reasons as to why they are limited and hence cannot be eternal.
This is not my answer to your post, but I recommend that you read my post again and look at the way in which I disproove matter to be eternal.
The reality shows that matter is unable to create more matter or even transform into other forms of energy without the need of help. So how can we believe matter to be the creator of all things or the cause of the universe when matter itself requires an external cause to change it into other forms of energy.
Plesae note, the above is not my answer to your reply shown above, it is a kind request to re-read my previous post