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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy. This external entity is responsible for making all the delicate organizations of already existed matter/energy. This external entity makes delicate organizations of matter/energy using its eternal intelligence.
Well, this theory is not easy to reject. I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds.
I know you have'nt answered my previous post, but after you have can you just clarify your position of the above comments you made.
From the above, it sounds that you have agreed that something extrenal existed before matter, as you mentioned...
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy
** I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds.**
So can you please clarify your stance with regards to the above. because that is exactly what I believe, that another entity existed before matter.
Waiting for your reply
ali
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nijaatwali: *
first and foremost, let me make something clear. i posted that "copy and paste" dialogue to get a point across. i DID NOT post it as a teaching of Islam. it was to show u that Science is not always correct and it cannot explain everything. Secondly, can i ask: what is ur religion?
[/QUOTE]
I already accepted even before my answer to this dialouge that science is also not always correct and that it cannot explain everything. We can see older science theories being replaced by new ones. It means that older theories were incorrect.
YOU DID POSTED THAT DIALOUGE AS "SATISFACTORY ANSWERS" GIVEN BY "MUSLIM STUDENT" ATLEAST.
I also do not think that these "satifactory answers" which were first given by Saint Augustine are absolute answers to the problem of presence of evil in this universe. AIDS virus is an evil agent. It has its physical presence. According to your own beliefs, you accept "presence" of "Shataan". Presence of "Shataan" is not just merely the absence of some good thing according to your own beliefs.
So the question is why you copy pasted such dialouge which go against your own beliefs....???
And what is my religion...?? My mind is open before you. How can I say that I am a muslim or chriestian or Jew or hindu...?? Certainly I have no religion. However the idealogy which I am trying to represent is known as "Rationalism".
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by malikhan1983: *
Hi
I think you have misunderstood my post. My post actually disproves that matter/energy is eternal, in fact it highlights the reasons as to why they are limited and hence cannot be eternal.
This is not my answer to your post, but I recommend that you read my post again and look at the way in which I disproove matter to be eternal.
The reality shows that matter is unable to create more matter or even transform into other forms of energy without the need of help. So how can we believe matter to be the creator of all things or the cause of the universe when matter itself requires an external cause to change it into other forms of energy.
Plesae note, the above is not my answer to your reply shown above, it is a kind request to re-read my previous post
[/QUOTE]
Ok I shall consider this clarification in my next replies to you.
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......................................................................................
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy. This external entity is responsible for making all the delicate organizations of already existed matter/energy. This external entity makes delicate organizations of matter/energy using its eternal intelligence.
Well, this theory is not easy to reject. I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds.
I know you have'nt answered my previous post, but after you have can you just clarify your position of the above comments you made.
From the above, it sounds that you have agreed that something extrenal existed before matter, as you mentioned...
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy
.............................................................................................
MAlikhan,
Yes such a theory cannot be rejected at all. Matter/Energy has so much numarious, so much complicated and often perfact combinations that It appears that they have been "designed" by some "intelligent designer". The presence of this strange intelligence has admired (only to) the human kind science the dawn of appearance of human conciousness. This is a mysterious intelligence. Humans, since then, started speculating about the source of this intelligence. First of all they recognized various number of gods as a source of this intelligence. These initial gods were not thought to be different from ardinary but powerful human beings. So these gods had similar physical shape and habits to that of ordinary but powerful humans.
This concept changed various shapes. Some times sun or stars were considered to be the source of this intelligence and some where fire was considered the source of this intelligence. Then humans made idols and start thinking that such hard shaped idols could be the source of this intelligence.
You see that human concepts about the source of this intelligence has been evolved from very basic initial stages.
A time came in history when Samatic People (Bani-Israel) suggested "Yahwa" as their god. This "Yahwa" has been described as "Kudawand Khuda Bani Israel Ka Khuda" in Urdu Translation of Bible. This concept further evolved and this same "Khudawand Khuda Bani Israel Ka Khuda" becomes "Rab-ul-Aalameen" in Islam. And this is now considered by the muslims to be the absolute source of intelligence which is present in the universe.
Yes this theory is not easy to reject BUT it is NOT THE ONLY explaination of presence of "intelligence" in the universe. I already have tried to describe "energy balance" theory in my previous post to you. I have tried to show that all matter in the universe has "automatic tendency" to keep itself in "balanced energy state". When this balance disturbes, matter itself has the tendency to reorganize itself into even very complicated organizations just to re acquire its "balanced energy state".
Now I have recognized two POSSIBLE theories for the explaination of intelligence found in the nature. You BELIEVE in one of them. I ONLY CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF BOTH OF THEM.
I however, prefer second theory because after all this theory can explain the intelligence found in the universe without the involvement of any concept or entity which is inconceavable to human mind.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
......................................................................................
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy. This external entity is responsible for making all the delicate organizations of already existed matter/energy. This external entity makes delicate organizations of matter/energy using its eternal intelligence.
Well, this theory is not easy to reject. I also can accept this theory due to its various grounds.
I know you have'nt answered my previous post, but after you have can you just clarify your position of the above comments you made.
From the above, it sounds that you have agreed that something extrenal existed before matter, as you mentioned...
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy
.............................................................................................
MAlikhan,
Yes such a theory cannot be rejected at all. Matter/Energy has so much numarious, so much complicated and often perfact combinations that It appears that they have been "designed" by some "intelligent designer". The presence of this strange intelligence has admired (only to) the human kind science the dawn of appearance of human conciousness. This is a mysterious intelligence. Humans, since then, started speculating about the source of this intelligence. First of all they recognized various number of gods as a source of this intelligence. These initial gods were not thought to be different from ardinary but powerful human beings. So these gods had similar physical shape and habits to that of ordinary but powerful humans.
This concept changed various shapes. Some times sun or stars were considered to be the source of this intelligence and some where fire was considered the source of this intelligence. Then humans made idols and start thinking that such hard shaped idols could be the source of this intelligence.
You see that human concepts about the source of this intelligence has been evolved from very basic initial stages.
A time came in history when Samatic People (Bani-Israel) suggested "Yahwa" as their god. This "Yahwa" has been described as "Kudawand Khuda Bani Israel Ka Khuda" in Urdu Translation of Bible. This concept further evolved and this same "Khudawand Khuda Bani Israel Ka Khuda" becomes "Rab-ul-Aalameen" in Islam. And this is now considered by the muslims to be the absolute source of intelligence which is present in the universe.
Yes this theory is not easy to reject BUT it is NOT THE ONLY explaination of presence of "intelligence" in the universe. I already have tried to describe "energy balance" theory in my previous post to you. I have tried to show that all matter in the universe has "automatic tendency" to keep itself in "balanced energy state". When this balance disturbes, matter itself has the tendency to reorganize itself into even very complicated organizations just to re acquire its "balanced energy state".
Now I have recognized two POSSIBLE theories for the explaination of intelligence found in the nature. You BELIEVE in one of them. I ONLY CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF BOTH OF THEM.
I however, prefer second theory because after all this theory can explain the intelligence found in the universe without the involvement of any concept or entity which is inconceavable to human mind.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, so from the post above, it shows that you believe that another entity existed before energy. as I asked you:
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy
And you replied:
Yes such a theory cannot be rejected at all.
So if the external entity had to exist before matter, that shows that matter at a time did not exist and then it came into existence and hence it was created/brought into existence.
This is because, when someone says, "my father was present before me", what they mean, is that at one point in time, they (the child) did not exist. So when we admit that an external entity existed before matter, we have actually attested to the fact that matter at one moment in time did not exist.
So matter/energy has limits (in size,in the form they can take etc, the combinations they can make).
matter/energy is weak and needy, ie the need for other things to transform it into other energy forms
When the mind looks at these qualities of matter, it concludes that these are not the qualities of an eternal entity that caused every effect because the first cause, which is eternal by necessity, is the cause of all the weak,needy and dependent things. And so all the things that exist are dependent upon this first cause. But we observe that matter itself is needy and weak, so we dismiss it (rationally) to be eternal and the first cause.
Waiting...
Thanks
reply to basic force and chandigarh
I have just joined this discussion and i am glad to see that the discussion is proceeding fruitfully and that we are dealing with the matter in a very intellectual manner. Thanks to the pair of you and may this discussion lead us towards the truth.
With reagrds to chandigarhs comment on undertsanding the cause of the initiation of the universe and its potential causes, well, we should look at all the possibilities and eliminate all those that contradict rationality.
As for the possible causes, well there are only two: either the initiation was from a
1:limited entity, whether this be matter(which would include a life being aswell) or force, or matter exerting force or
2: an unlimited entity, that is beyond our senses ie. we have no previous information about and we cannot pass any rational understanding other than the fact that an unlimited entity initiated the existence of matter.
Looking forward to your reply.
Thanks.
addition to my previous post
my reason for taking the discussion to this understanding is because we must understand that to come to a definite understanding of how the universe came about.
Hence we must look at ALL the possible potential causes then if we can, eliminate the ones that do not agree with rationality: like 'fire doesnt cause heat', until we are left with the truth, and this HAS to be something that agrees with our mind ie. something that is rational.
So let us proceed in our mission, oh men of understanding.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by malikhan1983: *
Ok, so from the post above, it shows that you believe that another entity existed before energy. as I asked you:
So you also recognize another external entity who was present even before the matter/energy
And you replied:
Yes such a theory cannot be rejected at all.
So if the external entity had to exist before matter, that shows that matter at a time did not exist and then it came into existence and hence it was created/brought into existence.
This is because, when someone says, "my father was present before me", what they mean, is that at one point in time, they (the child) did not exist. So when we admit that an external entity existed before matter, we have actually attested to the fact that matter at one moment in time did not exist.
So matter/energy has limits (in size,in the form they can take etc, the combinations they can make).
matter/energy is weak and needy, ie the need for other things to transform it into other energy forms
When the mind looks at these qualities of matter, it concludes that these are not the qualities of an eternal entity that caused every effect because the first cause, which is eternal by necessity, is the cause of all the weak,needy and dependent things. And so all the things that exist are dependent upon this first cause. But we observe that matter itself is needy and weak, so we dismiss it (rationally) to be eternal and the first cause.
Waiting...
Thanks
[/QUOTE]
"So if the external entity had to exist before matter, that shows that matter at a time did not exist and then it came into existence and hence it was created/brought into existence."
Mere fact that extarnal entity could exist before matter/energy dose not necessasirally imply that matter/energy at one time did not existed or that they had necessiraly been "created" by that external entity. When I say that some external intelligent entity could exist even before matter/energy, then I am not talking of ordinary time references. I am then talking of infinite time references. I think you must be knowing of famous "infinity paradox" which states that it is possible for one infinite value to be a proper subset of another infinite value. For example, consider the example of set of infinite even numbers i.e. {2,4,6,......} which is a proper subset of another set which is the set of infinite natural numbers i.e. {1,2,3,......}. You see both the sets represent infinite numbers yet one of the sets is the proper subset of the other set.
So it is quite possible that both matter/energy and that external entity might be existing since infinite times and it is also possible that the "infinite" time period for "external entity" may be greater than the "infinite" time period of matter/energy. This hypothesis is conceavable by considering the infinity paradox of infinite natural and infinite even numbers.
If you insist that matter/energy were "created" by that external entity, then you are over rulling the experimentally proven fact of matter/energy conservation which states that MATTER/ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED FROM NOTHING.
If you insist on over rulling the proven fact of science then why you insist that your religion is exactly according to science or that science is exactly according to your religion.
"This is because, when someone says, "my father was present before me", what they mean, is that at one point in time, they (the child) did not exist. So when we admit that an external entity existed before matter, we have actually attested to the fact that matter at one moment in time did not exist."
Your this anology is not applicable to the situation under discussion because it talks of ordinary time references whereas the issue under discussion talks of infinte time references.
"matter/energy is weak and needy, ie the need for other things to transform it into other energy forms."
You consider matter/energy to be weak and needy but I do not think so. Matter/energy can become self sufficient when their "balanced energy state" disturbs. I already have discussed it in details in my previous posts.
If you insist that matter/energy is weak and needy then what is the surety that "external entity" is also not weak and needy. After all external entity already lacks some properties which matter/energy possess such as physical presence, weight, ability to do work (i.e. energy) etc. etc. In this context, external entity must be more weak and needy than matter/energy.
Consider your own self. What are you. Are you not a combination of matter/energy. Can you not change the matter energy combinations of other things?
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
Yes it is the most difficult thing to know how the universe and humans came into being. There are theories that this universe is a real thing. That the matter really exists. What we find in this universe are only the different combinations of matter and energy. Of what thing this matter and energy is made of..?? How and why they make different combinations...?? I think these are the core questions to which physical sciences are trying to find out correct and detailed answers. What presently we know about these things, all has come from Rational Thinking, Logic and the application of scientific mathod such as critical analysis, experimental testing etc.
So we know that matter is made up of building blocks known as atoms. Atoms are futher divisible into certain "fundamental Particals". Why fundamental particles join each other to make atom..?? Scientists has found some forces of attraction and repultion between these fundamental particals who are responsible to keep join these fundamental particals to make an atom. Atoms are of different kind. Scientists have found nearly 92 different kind of atoms that occur in nature. Scientists also have made some other kind of atoms THAT DO NOT OCCUR IN NATURE. What are these different kinds of atoms..?? Atoms differ from each other on the basis of number of protons present in the nucleus of atom. For example Hydrogen atom have only one proton in its nucleus and Carbon atom have 12 protons in its nucleus.
Each distinct atom is also known as smallest building block of its corresponding element. Thus Hydrogen is an element and its smallest building block that still have all the qualities of Hydrogen is the "atom of Hydrogen".
These different kinds of atoms can make countless different combinations with each other to form "compounds". Every compound is different from any other compound in its physical and chemical properties. There may be as simple compounds as Water and as complicated compounds as DNA molecule.
What is a DNA molecule..??? It is a very very complicated combination of only few atoms i.e carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Sulpher and Nitrogen etc. This DNA molecule is the core basis of all the known life forms. The complecated structure of DNA molecule has acquired the property known as "Replication". DNA molecules can replicate to "generate" other similar DNA molecules. These DNA molecules are so much complicated that they contain "codes" to build a complete living organism.
And the energy is also a manifestation of matter. There are different kinds of energies. We also know various charactristics of energy. Energies play important role in making different kinds of combinations of atoms.
Now we know what is this universe made of and how living things came into being.
The still ananswered question is that how matter and enrgy originated...?
Science theories maintain that matter and enery can neither be created nor can be destroyed. They only can transform in other forms (combinations). Thus accoording to this principle, MATTER AND ENERGY HAVE NEVER BEEN "CREATED" OR "ORIGINATED" BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS PRESENT IN THE UNIVERSE.
This is my understanding of nature and cause of universe and living beings.
And what about the reality of this cause...?? Yes, your this question is still unanswered in my this post. Shell try to answer this after viewing your response.
Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
I'm going to make a stupid sounding remark to most.
I have always believed that when a person ceases to exist, they lose life, but God compensates by granting the answers to every mystery ever pondered in ones life.
Only God knows the answers to seemingly simple questions that are in truth difficult. Only God knows the answers to difficult questions that in truth are simple.
Because God is also a mystery. A mystery that requires faith.