Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

9/11 does not correlate to the US national identity nor does it affect the founding of the nation. Questioning the government also does not reflect on the need for the state to exist. No american regardless of how much they hate the Government or the different parties would ask "Hey I think the USA should not have existed at all".

Americans to the contrary say their nation is a must on the international scene.

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Re: Why do Pakistani’s question their own existence?

Ravage the Israelis in question do not question the need for a Jewish state. The question the actions of its government and more importantly the barbarity against the Palestinians. But all “self-hating Jews” give unequivocal support to an Israeli state. J street is a perfect example of that. They do not question the need for them to have their own country. What they question is the need to separate the Palestinians or the Arab Israelis from the Jewish Israelis.

I question it because it is not natural. If it is can you name two more communities or nations that question their own very existence?

As for the comment about Sudanese or Yugoslavs. Serbians nor Sudanese consider these communities their own. Statements in the ICJ by Serbians are a testament to that fact. As for South Sudan, those in Khartoum considered them less than human. They weren’t considered equals or Sudanese.*

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

After reading your previous post to mine, which I must admit I missed initially, sort of suggests how your 1st post is more directed towards the general members around here or/and who live abroad. In Pakistan however, the majority of the general public have a very different and must I say a positive mindset when it comes to the existence of Pakistan. They do criticize but seldom do they question its existence. =)

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Right. But some people do question and condemn the past, how they massacred the Native Americans and how they snatched their land. They don't deny that, do they?

Of course Pakistan cannot be compared to America in that sense but the point is others don't get all defensive and angry over it and don't make it ghairat ka mamla.

Try criticizing the Pak army like Chomsky criticizes the US armed forces.

Also, "Hey I think the USA should not have existed at all" and "Hey how can I remove the existence of USA from the map", BIG DIFFERENCE.

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Re: Why do Pakistani’s question their own existence?

If some Israelies question the need to separate the Palestinians or the Arab Israelies from Jewish Israelies, or advocate a one-state solution of bi-nationalism, they go against their national ideology in significant ways. That is equivalent to saying the state of Israel, as it exists, should no longer exist and should be replaced by something ideologically completely different. Not a whole load of difference between that and questioning our founding doctrine, i.e. two-nation theory.

Ask a Bangladeshi or Baloch of a certain persuation and they might feel that they are not considered equals either. Funny how perceptions of equality and belonging vary.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Overseas Pakistanis do more for Pakistan than those who live in Pakistan. Its us who are sending $ billions that keep Pakistani state from sinking while real patriots inside Pakistan who refuse to pay taxes & are running around the world begging for $$$ from infidels.

Btw, living outside of Pakistan & travelling overseas gives us much better view of how & what Pakistan could be..like u know why for example Karachi isn't NY of Pakistan instead its turning into Mogadishu?

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Re: Why do Pakistani’s question their own existence?

^ I always thought the CA of NomiCA stood for California. :confused:

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Re: Why do Pakistani’s question their own existence?

Bingo. I’ve seen plenty of academics bash the founding doctrines of America. Things like’manifest destiny’](http://www.duke.edu/~agf2/history391/nativism.html) and so on.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

it's a drastic generalization as far as both overseas and Pakistanis living in Pakistan are concerned. Bad people are everywhere but that doesn't make the whole population living in Pakistan as the ones who don't pay tax or don't contribute much for the country or the fact that overseas Pakistanis have nothing to give to Pakistan.

But I still would say, living abroad away from the hue and chaos does tend to make a person think a bit more negatively of the situation due to the hyped up media antics too.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Hareem I am not sure what media you read regarding Pakistan, but the Pakistani media actively questions the Pakistani military. In print and on TV. During the Swat situation the reputation of the military was the lowest it had ever been. The media was openly questioning the need for such large budgets when they can't even protect the country. Same with the PNS Mehran attack. Same with the GHQ attack. You have a very warped idea of what is allowed in Pakistan if you think the media does not question the ISI and military.

As for Israel they do not go against their national ideology. Not until 2009 (i believe i could have the year wrong but it was very recent) did the Israeli Knesset try to include in the "pledge of allegiance" an explicit clause to the Jewish identity of Israel and even then part of the populace rejected the idea saying it was not democratic. They did not question whether it was an issue of identity. The average Israeli sees Israel as his or her homeland. But does not consider the Palestinian question as an assault on its existence. Israel will exist regardless of the outcome of the Palestinian question.

See that is where the case of South Sudan and Kosovo do not compare with the Baloch question or the Bangladeshi comparison.

Kosovars were all in favor of independence. So are all South Sudanese. Nobody in Government nor in power says they should be part of Serbia or Sudan. On the other hand the Darfuris are very proud Sudanese. They are happy to be part of Sudan and don't want independence. However they want fair sharing or resources and access to development and education. That compares more with the Baloch consideration. Balochis are proud of Pakistan and do show patriotism. However they have been disenfranchised. And Pakistanis do consider them compatriots and countrymen.

That does not apply in the case of Sudan or Yugoslavia.

Also can you name two nations or communities that question their very existence?

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Re: Why do Pakistani’s question their own existence?

I would love to see such academics who question the founding fathers, the right of the american colonies to independence and the constitution. Those are after all the foundations the US is built upon.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

I may have a very warped idea of Pakistan and its media but I know last time a guy tried to openly criticize the law of the country got killed by his own bodyguard.

"questioning our existence" is a vague term and you've been using it a lot. Would you actually care to explain it?

I see, you already did, "Hey I think the USA should not have existed at all". If a Pakistani says the same thing about Pakistan, it can be taken into different meanings depending on his intent and context.
May be some people don't wanna support the partition purely 'cause it was set up by the Britishers.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Its one of the "gift" our older generation gave to us. I mean they had seen some other country called india.,... they had see some other country called bangladesh....
I mean come on!!!!! What do we know.... how many of us were even born before pakistan was in todays shape??(4 provinces+kashmir)

Should we not be only pakistanis with out any thing else being in pictures???? Its about time we have some back bones and we start being nationalists.

Seriously what the F do I care about 2 nation theory ??? We were born in one nation.. SOLID!!!!!!
That is my theory... DONT need to look any further or any before.

Here is an analogy for ppl weak in head.... what do I care how my parents met??? I mean I am here now!!!

So what do we pakistani care??? Thing is we are here now!!

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

A lot of them may not be Pakistani. ;)

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Errr....that was not the military. That was the fundo, hijab wearing beard growing crazy idiots that ruin the name of our religion on a regular basis. That was a religious issue on blasphemy laws.

So hareem you have been having a discussion on a term that you consider vague and don't understand the notion behind it for a good 2 pages? Really?

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

The problem is that we never really had honest debates about who we are, what do we want and were we are heading.We are just limping along as a nation w/o understanding purpose of our existence. Also, the popular talking points are driven by those who have interest of self-preservation and keeping the status quo, and who seem to shout loudest (and kill too...for Islam of course) & not to forget the cooked up history fed to them.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

hijab wearing and beard growing fundos? Really? And what about all those lawyers showering the murderer with rose petals? I know whatchya gonna say, "oh we have black-sheep in every society".

And I have already answered your other concern. The term according to your very own definition does not qualify as an offence to the sanctuary of the country nor does it qualify as some sort of treachery. or if you're too concerned about people debating over a piece of land then tell your "fundos" to make a law against this too.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

I have said this before and I will say it again. Ask any Pakistani on the street he will have an answer to who he is and what it means to him to be Pakistani. And I bet you right now he will do so with sarcastic humor that is more of a back handed compliment than a serious introspective comment. Why? Because that is our national character. Throw what you want us. We survive with a wicked sense of humor.

If people have questions about their self of identity vis a vis our national identity, that is an individual issue not a collective one.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

If I were to answer in one line, I would say it's because of negative propaganda by indian media and indian entertainment industry that Pakistanis are very fond of and easily influenced by.

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Re: Why do Pakistani's question their own existence?

Question: why shouldn't we "question" the existence of Pakistan? I think people do it in the same manner as they question the existence of any other independent country. It's like the right wingers asking why some americans question the existence of the USA. well, simply because there are parts of history they don't agree with and we feel were unnecessary. We question things like
Was it ok to shed blood for a greater good? If yes, has it been accomplished? 

    Couldn't there be a better alternative? If yes, why didn't we try that first? In pakistan's case, I am not sure but when it comes to America, I really believe there was

    Were the reasons for the parition justified? If yes, did it make a difference?  

    Are the conditions better now than they were before the partition? If yes, HOW? In pakistan's case, I can't compare since I wasn't there before the partition.

BTW, I don't question Pakistan's existence, everyone has the right to life, freedom to practice their religion, and practice their human rights....If British Indian muslim minority felt uncomfortable, then they did the right thing. The question is did you get what you wanted in the end?