Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri and Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
I am an Indian and a Hindu but I am not a fundamentalist. I believe in the composite heritage of Hindus and Muslims and I think both are pillars of India. However, if we go back into History, we will find some disturbing truths. Everybody in both India and Pakistan know about our ancient Indus Valley Civilization and the sites are located in both India and Pakistan. Subsequently, in the ancient historical period, there were glorious years of Ashoka the Great and Chandragupta. In those days, India was divided into big and small Hindu or Dravidian states, with few states ruled by newly converted Buddhists and Jains. Islam came much later to India, when Mohammad Ghauri attacked India and specially the Hindu Ruler Prithviraj Chauhan, on the Invitation of His archenemy Jaichand. Subsequently, the Northwestern states of India were plundered and looted by other Muslim conquerors including Ghazni and later on by the Mughals. In that duration, lots of Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam, especially the higher caste Hindus and that continued till the horrific reign of Aurangzeb.
However, I fail to understand why Pakistanis are so proud of these conquerors and mass murderers. Pakistan had even named its missiles after Ghazni and Ghauri. By these acts, they have perversely sought to commemorate these
Afghan rulers of Turkish descent in utter disregard of the fact
that most of the territories they plundered are their own - the
North West Frontier Province, the Punjab and Sind. The men and
women they tortured, enslaved, ravished and put to the sword were
their own forebears. Almost all of the Pakistanis might be having a Hindu ancestry, which might go back in time immemorial. People like Jinnah and Sheikh Abdullah had a Hindu ancestry. Christian missionaries seldom used methods of coercion to convert Hindus into Christianity unlike the cruel mercenaries like Ghazni and company. I agree that Akbar was one of the best Muslims because he had respect for Hinduism and believed in a composite culture but Aurangzeb was entirely the opposite. He killed his own brothers for the lust of power and imposed the most severe form of Islamic Rule, while not hesitating to kill the people of his own community who opposed him. One of the tallest leaders of Partition movement once said in his remarks that Jinnah was the greatest Muslim after Aurangzeb. I don’t know how this was said as Jinnah was completely different person. He had a modern outlook and wanted Pakistan to be a modern and secular Islamic state, on the lines of Ataturk’s Turkey.
To conclude, I wish that Pakistanis understand their past in a more holistic way. The forefathers of both the country’s populations have suffered in the hands of the so-called heroes. We as Indians always want a strong and stable Pakistan and majority of us don’t have any animosity against the common Pakistanis. Akbar the great or Sufis like Bulle Shah or even Jinnah can inspire one but worshipping the plunderers and mass murderers who devastated our ancestors is not at all justified.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
Because they were great Muslims and role models...
Your history and books will tell you that these were looters, plunderers, mass murderers and cruel tyrants...I say all lies...
For if a man like Jesus, who had nothing but words of love and humanity, whose miracles people had witnessed, whose words drew thousands of people towards him, can be made to look like a villain enough to be crucified, what chances do these dead Muslim heroes have?
It is better for you to keep believing in lies told and retold in your books...Every Muslim in the past, today and in the future who raises his voice and hands for Muslims will be subject to obscurity, propaganda and lies...
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
[quote]
Afghan rulers of Turkish descent in utter disregard of the fact that most of the territories they plundered are their own - the North West Frontier Province, the Punjab and Sind. The men and women they tortured, enslaved, ravished and put to the sword were their own forebears. Almost all of the Pakistanis might be having a Hindu ancestry, which might go back in time immemorial. People like Jinnah and Sheikh Abdullah had a Hindu ancestry
hindu ancestory is irrelevant if you read about early islamic battles
the bonds of religious brotherhood were stronger than any kinship ties.
nephew will kill his uncle if he is a pagan and opposses him.
To Allah(swt) lies the ultimate allegiance of all muslims
.
[quote]
Christian missionaries seldom used methods of coercion to convert Hindus into Christianity unlike the cruel mercenaries like Ghazni and company
[/quote]
offcourse not when the rulers were muslim they simply couldnt
read about how europe was cleansed of all pagan baltic and german tribes
south america is the same story.Deathtoll there far exceedes that in India
.
[quote]
I agree that Akbar was one of the best Muslims because he had respect for Hinduism and believed in a composite culture
[/quote]
according to orthodox muslims he was an apostate
he started a new religion so he was not a muslim at all
the worst possible ruler, our hero in this episode is shaikh mujadid alaf sani who protested against his cruel corrupt and unjust rule.
[quote]
but Aurangzeb was entirely the opposite. He killed his own brothers for the lust of power and imposed the most severe form of Islamic Rule, while not hesitating to kill the people of his own community who opposed him
[/quote]
he was by no means perfect but atleast he tried to re-introduce some islamic principles and he led a simple life he dismissed all court musicians
.
[quote]
To conclude, I wish that Pakistanis understand their past in a more holistic way. The forefathers of both the country’s populations have suffered in the hands of the so-called heroes
[/quote]
those people were pagans,we dont identify with our pagan forefathers.Those who feel so proud of the indus valley civilizations and other such things are misguided
.
[quote]
We as Indians always want a strong and stable Pakistan and majority of us don’t have any animosity against the common Pakistanis. Akbar the great or Sufis like Bulle Shah or even Jinnah can inspire one but worshipping the plunderers and mass murderers who devastated our ancestors is not at all justified
[/quote]
sufis and jinnah had their own role to play and indeed it was due to the valiant efforts of these sufis that islam spread in india.(we seldom give them the credit they deserve)
Jinnah's views differed from the ulemas at times but he cannot be compared to an evil ruler like akbar who tried to destroy Islam in India.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
because they kicked some hindu tail.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
Funny that indians now come and say that jinnah is ok and even "good" as a role model yet they spread that he was communal hatemonger satan compared to angelic Congress.
It really shows their motives!
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
[quote]
I don’t know how this was said as Jinnah was completely different person. He had a modern outlook and wanted Pakistan to be a modern and secular Islamic state, on the lines of Ataturk’s Turkey.
[/quote]
Give up that dream dude, Pakistan is an Islamic nation and Inshaa Alaaah always will be, your deifnition of "secular" goes against Islam and forget about Pakistan you've not even been able to succesfully implement it in India, secular to bahot door ki baat hai come back when your country kills less Kashmiri Muslims and your people kill less Gujarati Muslims.
Stop your false allegations against Baba-e-Qaum Rehmatullah Alaih
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
He isn't fully wrong, I don't think Jinnah wanted to implement full islamic sharia.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
well said Lajawab :k:
Thats what I call it propganda of Hindus and British
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
[quote]
He isn't fully wrong, I don't think Jinnah wanted to implement full islamic sharia.
[/quote]
bro dats all indian/british BS propoganda to demoralise us
I can dig up many quotes from him to show that no matter how he was during his early life, when he got us indepoendence he was quite an Islamic man.
He was born to a Ismaeli (Shi'ah sub sect) and Ismaelis are very lax when it comes to religion, even their pope and his family are not conservative so you can't expect mush from their followers, but later he embraced Sunni Islam and was quite an Islamic man, he disowned his only daughter, the apple of his eye for marrying a Kaafir and he had a Sunni Muslim pray his funeral prayer and a prominent Qadiani in the Pak movement refused to join in saying "either he was a Kaafir or I am".
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
not just history books. the diaries of these men themselves, rajput annals, arab journals, mughal court transcripts, sikh scriptures, etc.
they are all lying just to defame some righteous men? the entire population hated and despised great men who treated them well? that defies human nature…good rulers are adored by their subjects, like Akbar or Tipu Sultan…it is not an anti-Muslim thing.
do you think it is difficult to believe that men who invaded foreign lands and occupied them would not be brutal? is this not what you cry about in the world affairs forum…invasion and occupation of muslim lands?
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
even if he didnt , we shouldnt think he was like Akbar
Jinnah never had a problem if you want to be a pious muslim or just a secular he wanted complete freedom
But akbar was enforcing his deviant cult through brute force he was forcing ulemas to prostrate before him
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
[QUOTE]
not just history books. the diaries of these men themselves, rajput annals, arab journals, mughal court transcripts, sikh scriptures, etc.
they are all lying just to defame some righteous men?
Didnt the rajputs also invade india? you have no problem in regarding them as heroes
Were the hindu rajas of north india the original inhabitants?
Secondly if you think muslims regard these rulers as the model for any islamic caliph/king then you are sadly mistaken, the pious companions and the followers of Prophet(saw) serve that function.
For us these men are national heroes just like charlegamagne is to the french or Alexander to macedonians.I dont see anyone calling on them to abandon their admiration for their "great Kings" they were every bit as brutal as ghauri or ghaznavi
[QUOTE]
the entire population hated and despised great men who treated them well? that defies human nature....good rulers are adored by their subjects, like Akbar or Tipu Sultan.....it is not an anti-Muslim thing.
[/QUOTE]
Akbar was resented by a great number of muslims, cannot say how you can regard him as a good ruler
infact at the siege of chitor he killed many rajputs too so when intially in his reign when he was killing hindus he was a monster, when he adopted your customs and religion he became a saint....right?
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
there is no comparison between vague speculations of thousands of years B.C (that all have equally vague contradictory theories) and the excruciatingly detailed documentation of the Muslim invasions and ensuing atrocities and Muslim rule/occupation from a great variety of diverse sources.
our Rajput heroes were defenders against the invading barbarians. your heroes are the invading barbarians.
i don’t care if you regard them as model islamic caliphs. it is just disturbing that these war criminals are heroes to you…you guys believe Hulagu Khan was the worst human to ever walk the earth, and yet revere Muslims who did exactly the same thing to India.
so you are of the opinion that they should be respected despite their brutalities and crimes against humanity.
this is a different viewpoint than Lajwab’s hilarious categorical denial that anything of the sort even happened and that these men were all great saints that have been conspired against and defamed.
Akbar perpetrated horrendous war crimes, so did Tipu Sultan…yet they are still respected rulers in India. it is not because he adopted hindu religion (which is not true)…most Hindus have no idea that Akbar deviated from Islam, he is seen as a purely Muslim ruler. this is simply due to relative evaluation…compared to Aurangzeb and other muslim tyrants that ruled over hindus, Akbar was a saint.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
[quote] there is no comparison between vague speculations of thousands of years B.C (that all have equally vague contradictory theories) and the excruciatingly detailed documentation of the Muslim invasions and ensuing atrocities and Muslim rule/occupation from a great variety of diverse sources.
if you want to doubt historical references then that is an endless debate
some hindus who dream of a dalitistan actually claim that brahmin/rajput atrocities are pretty welldocumented too.
.
[quote]
i don't care if you regard them as model islamic caliphs. it is just disturbing that these war criminals are heroes to you....you guys believe Hulagu Khan was the worst human to ever walk the earth, and yet revere Muslims who did exactly the same thing to India
[/quote]
you cant blame us alone
Attila is a villian but Cortez represents civilization?
you decide
.
[quote]
so you are of the opinion that they should be respected despite their brutalities and crimes against humanity.
[/quote]
In the historical context their crimes were no worse than those of any others including the rajputs so why are they being singled out?
we regard mahrattas as terrorists to you sivaji is a national hero
[quote]
this is a different viewpoint than Lajwab's hilarious categorical denial that anything of the sort even happened and that these men were all great saints that have been conspired against and defamed
[/quote]
.
maybe lajawab knows better than me, I am merely stating what I know
[quote]
Akbar perpetrated horrendous war crimes, so did Tipu Sultan....yet they are still respected rulers in India. this is simply due to relative evaluation....compared to Aurangzeb and other muslim tyrants that ruled over hindus, Akbar was a saint
[/quote]
just a moment ago they were
.
[quote]
good rulers are adored by their subjects, like Akbar or Tipu Sultan
[/quote]
..
To you aurangzaib seems a tyrant because he made an attempt to return to islamic roots and sharia obviously this was resented by the rajputs who have grown in power since akbar's time
btw One of auranzaibs general was a rajput he was also responsible for pillaging in Deccan
Rajput princes sent horsemen as mercenaries to mughal courts
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
no, that’s not what they claim…they stand by speculative theory and they cite nothing. there is no documentation or evidence whatsoever. In contrast, with the Muslim invasions, there is no dearth of highly-detailed documentation. if you doubt hindu or sikh sources, then use arab sources, journals of the invaders themselves, and mughal court transcripts. The difference is that there was no political correctness in that age. if 20,000 girls were taken back to afghanistan as sex slaves, then the Afghans documented it. it was simple cataloguing of their activities and affairs.
this is what people like Lajwab do not realize when they confidently state their denials…that the most damning evidence is not hindu sources, but from the invaders themselves.
if a man perpetrates genocide and other crimes against humanity…then i don’t care if he is spanish or a nomadic mongrel. it is the same to me. even the indian king Ashoka carried out a great slaughter over a conquered kingdom, but his legacy is that of his repentance and sorrow, as well as his subsequent mission against that kind of violence.
Shivaji waged war against an oppressive tyrant, so naturally he was a hero. how is this difficult to understand? he had thousands of muslim soldiers and muslim allies. it is not a religious issue.
clearly he is delusional. he is obviously uneducated in these matters and has no clue as to the un-biased evidence out there that destroys his claim.
the two concepts are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
islamic sharia over a majority hindu population…you don’t see why he would be hated? and why are you talking about Rajputs? virtually every community in India hated Aurangzeb and waged war against him…you are forgetting the Marathas, Sikhs, subjugated Muslim kings, etc.
it is not just his policies that were hated, it was his actions. Sikhs hate him because he tortured and killed one of their gurus when he refused to convert. Kashmiri pandits hate him because he launched a conversion drive in Kashmir and killed off thousands, and so on and so forth.
what is the point? indeed, there were treacherous Rajput cowards, there is no question about it.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
What? 
Muslims of punjab called for abdali’s help against Sivaji…
His own rise to power started when he invited an afghan for peace talks and when hugging him killed him with a dagger hence, “Baghl me churri, moon me ram ram” came about! 
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
nikhil25,
You are asking me to be historically correct while you stick to your version of "rajput and sikhs oppressed nations" and "sivaji freedom fighter" stories
Here is what I think of the Afghan kings,as I have mentioned before I do not consider themselves pious muslims nor were they model rulers in any way
but I also disapprove strongly the recent trend amongst "moderate muslims" to project them as barbarians.
They were fighting an infidel power and conquering new lands for islam this is absolutely permitted in Islam unless you any break treaties or oaths.Though their conduct in warfare leaves much to be desired and deviated at times markedly from what we were taught by the pious sahaba and taba'een.But they were not guilty of starting these innovations as it has occured many years before them
Their actions allowed muslim saints and scholars to settle in these lands and contributed to spreading the faith.
Capturing slaves and slavegirls in wars was not such an evil practice either.This is permitted in Islam provided it is a just war.
And slavery was rampant in Hindu India as well
For us they are much better heroes than men like akbar who tried to undermine the faith itself to establish their imperial rule.How can such an infidel be a national hero pakistan? simply because the hindus like him better
though they were far from perfect they do appear to be great defenders of the faith compared to akbar
Lastly from a purely nationalistic point of view why should we care about what they did to the hindus when selecting own national heroes?
How would you feel if we protest that Sivaji should not be honored as he was a terrorist?
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Musli
the rajputs, sikhs, and marathas were the three most prominent martial communities to defend against invaders and continue to fight hated rulers. what is the problem?
on what grounds would they not be considered barbarians? they fit the definition perfectly.
firstly, half the individuals we are talking about were looters and plunderers. is invading foreign lands to steal gold and women an islamically permissible activity?
so it’s cool to invade foreign lands, loot and torch their cities and take their women as slaves to be raped by soldiers and put into harems? that is sick and disgusting.
because he was a tolerant ruler who was liked by his subjects and presided over the most successful period in mughal history…the pinnacle of muslim rule in india.
i don’t care if he is not a national hero in pakistan, i am just telling you why he is considered the greatest. your national hero Aurangzeb presided over the downfall of muslim rule and unleashed revolt throughout the nation…he was a failure.
DEFENDERS? do you know what “defense” means?
because that makes them bas.tards. if Muhammad murdered a hundred hindu babies, would you view him in the same light?
and a “purely nationalistic point of view” would be the views of Afghans, Turks, Persians, etc…not pakistanis. None of your heroic invaders were born or died in pakistan, and their descendants are racist towards pakistanis. The only reason why they are heroes in pakistan is because of antagonism towards Hindus, nothing more, nothing less. that’s a pretty pathetic quality of a hero.
Shivaji is widely-known to have had an excellent human rights record. to anybody in the world, terrorizing the oppressive government of a hated tyrant is the work of a hero. You would look foolish to make that claim, whereas we don’t look foolish at all in calling Aurangzeb a tyrant or villain. any outsider will agree with us…it is common sense.
the problem in your thinking is that you assume the righteousness of a person is only a matter of which side you are on. That is stupid…from an objective point of view, sane people will call Hulagu Khan a barbarian, and sane people will call Ghauri/Ghazni/Timur/etc. barbarians.
Re: Why do Pakistanis consider Mahmud Ghazni, Mohammad Ghauri & Aurangzeb Great Muslims?
Because they were great Muslims…
Question is why do Indians don’t like them? 