Why do Pakistanis always talk about going Overseas?

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
1

Is emigration also a part of our culture? lol

I reckon we should all go back and help the country to grow with our knowledge and expertise. We sit here on our backsides complaining about the halaat back home, while we are doing absolutely nothing. We are not Pakistanis. We are simply greedy human beings who want to lead the ‘good life’, achieve an overseas education, work abroad (preferably in a 1st world country), visit Pakistan every once in a while for a 2 month holiday, while providing our services to western countries. For goodness sake, wake up people and smell the flipping coffee!! I bet not one of you will go back and re-settle there. No way jose. And even if you say that you would like to, I for one will not believe you.

YOU are NOT a Pakistani.

2

Can we move this post to General? Ta.

3

.. Cato kab ja rahi ho Pak permanently ..

4

I never said I am fully one

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no no more seriously catwoman, you’ve a point there!!

But I would not go back in that cat woman costume

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5

CW U gonna still complain about Halaat once U R in Pakistan becoz the ones who complain are always unthankful.

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6

Hey don't include me in that meri post paro I'm going back to Pakistan to help my country......

Inshallah duwa karo keh meh kisi manhoos western country meh nah settle ho jaaoun.....I had enough critism from relatives on coming back to pakistan to work.... people living there say liya rakka hai yahan!!(hence they see my Brit passport and think it's golden ticket to success and money!

whereas i think if we all run off to seek better pay and quality of life abroad humare apne mulk ka liya bane gah agar hum khud kuch nah karein?? DON'T COMPLAIN GET UP AND DO SOMETHING PEOPLE!!

7

hhmmm…$$$$$$$$$$$…££££££££££…

mein kuch samjhi nahin???

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Pind Se Girre__ Pardes Mein Atke

8

Do you all think this is a laughing matter??? This is NO joke peoples!! And I am very serious!!!!

Mr. Optimism, my hat goes off to you! May all these hypocritical overseas settled so-called 'Pakistanis' follow your example. Hear Hear.

9

May all these hypocritical overseas settled so-called ‘Pakistanis’ follow your example. Hear Hear. **
[/QUOTE]

well this applies to you also according to your definition. On the other hand ones definition does’nt put others in to that category.
How come you have just realized this notion of patriotism, where was it before.

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10

Cat

Dont hate me b/c i aint going back ,no way jose

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Whats a No.1 country ?

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If u.s. is no.1

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then what is South Africa?

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And if you are not in no1 country shouldnt you be progressing to no.1 rather than looking back to whatever 30th or lower position ..

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btw. are u really Pakistani or originally from India .? in that case you should be…anyway thats later

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aap se bhii khuubasuurat aapake a.ndaaz hai.n
aap kii aa.Nkho.n me.n kuchh mahake hue se raaz hai

11

What kind of f-ed up analogy is that??

I never said SA was a number 1 country. It is not a first world country.

As for coming overseas, I never had a choice in the matter at age 3.

What makes you say I’m Indian??? Both my parents were born and brought up in Pakistan and it’s also my place of birth.

Ofcourse I do fall into the same category as many overseas expats.

But what about people in Pakistan who are just itching to get out???

12

Cat woman

your family moving back to Pak?

btw there has been tons of discussion before on this topic. Maybe someone can find the thread. I believe the discussion took place in Cafe or General section a few months ago.

Also lets discuss, how Pakistanis abroad have, and can help Pakistan.

13

I also decided to answer your inquiries one at a time

Originally posted by cat-woman:
**Is emigration also a part of our culture? lol **

yes it is. but its part of every culture. If many preachers and scholars from nunmerous places had not come to India there would not have been that many people converting to islam etc. Even before partition people moved around to go to the place with the best opportunities for them, mostly it was done within India but in those days transportation was expensive so not everyone could have gone abroad. As air travel became common, and growth in other countries made their need for labour increase, our workforce in Pakistan which did not have a great deal of opportunities moved to where the opportunities were.

**I reckon we should all go back and help the country to grow with our knowledge and expertise. **

Could helping the country not be done from here? what exactly would be your version of “helping” the country. starting grassroots organizations, picking up trash from the streets, establishing industry, teaching in universities? There are many flavours here and not all of them are easy.

You may be surprised to find that there are enough foriegn qualified professionals and professors in Pakistan.

** We sit here on our backsides complaining about the halaat back home, **

I surely cant sit on someone else’s backside now eh?

**while we are doing absolutely nothing. We are not Pakistanis. **

Au Contraire

I would ask you to calculate the amount of foriegn exchange sent to Pakistan and how it has helped the country economically. On a micro scale, how many people have helped educate their siblings, or helped other members in teh family financially so they can have a little bit of support to pursue their goals.

I personally know people who were unable to attend the weddings of their siblings, did not see their childhood friends for decades etc, why because they were Pakistani enought o sacrifice being with their friends and families to make a better living and had enough responsibilities on them that we can not begin to understand.

**We are simply greedy human beings who want to lead the ‘good life’, achieve an overseas education, work abroad (preferably in a 1st world country), visit Pakistan every once in a while for a 2 month holiday, while providing our services to western countries. **

Ambition is not the same as greed. whereas there may be greedy people here, I argue that there are greedy people back home too. So being in Pakistan does not make you “not greedy” This greed can be seen in the gap between taxes due to govt and taxes paid, in the corruption and in the extotion that goes on. Many Pakistanis are forced to live as second class citizens in middle eastern countries where they cant even own property or be citizens, not out of greed but because of commitments and responsibilites, they are not in ‘western countries’

Its easy to tell someone to move to Pakistan. But have we made it easier in any way. Its a tough job uprooting your family and moving back, with the reverse culture shock and learning to swim in unfamiliar waters.

Speaking of selfishness and greed of people. People lived away their entire lives fromparents and siblings because of their responsibilities, aspirations or due to lack of opportunities. These people then moved back to Pakistan, and I am not goign to go into the types of issues they had to deal with, but then since their kids grew up abroad and due to lack of educational facilities their kids left for other countries as well.

Yes that is your typical selfish expatriate.
somehow I see a lot of personal sacrifice here, not slefishness.

**For goodness sake, wake up people and smell the flipping coffee!! **

I have always preferred the aroma of tea over coffee. Earl Grey Please

**I bet not one of you will go back and re-settle there. No way jose. **

Your bet is incorrect because there are people here who would go back. Your good self is among them I suppose.

And even if you say that you would like to, I for one will not believe you.

would you not believe them because if they say so your previous statement just bites the dust or is it because you have issues with trust. If its the former may I suggest a helpful helping of humble pie, if its the latter I can provide you with contact info of a few counselors. I suppose since you are moving to Pakistan I should get you list of counselors who practice there?

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YOU are NOT a Pakistani.**

and you are not from burkina faso yawn
anyways have fun in pakistan and when you have changed the country please let us selfish greedy people know. Thank you
(oh by the way that is if you are moving to Pakistan off your free will and are establishign some educational institution, some grassroots reform political campaign or some industry because you see, I doubt that just living in Karachi, and going to eat icecream at the boating basin does much more for the country

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)

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited October 29, 2001).]

14

ROFL! Mr. Frauds, I haven’t laughed so much on gupshup in a while. Your reply was highly entertaining! I usually find long replies a monotonous drone, but I’m pleased to say that yours was not utter BS. I’m still grinning like a cheshire cat.

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I like Earl Grey too, I just had some. I always put a pinch of it in my normal tea.

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I’ll come back to the subject at hand once I’ve recovered!

LOL at Burkina Faso.

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15

If we all went back, where would we live? They'd have to set up refugee camps for us next to the Afghans.

16

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
*If we all went back, where would we live? *
[/quote]

Maulvi Mussafir khana

17

Ok, I’ve regained my composure.

yes it is. but its part of every culture. If many preachers and scholars from nunmerous places had not come to India there would not have been that many people converting to islam etc. Even before partition people moved around to go to the place with the best opportunities for them, mostly it was done within India but in those days transportation was expensive so not everyone could have gone abroad. As air travel became common, and growth in other countries made their need for labour increase, our workforce in Pakistan which did not have a great deal of opportunities moved to where the opportunities were.

The numbers of Pakistani emigrants are still incomparable to that of many nations. Sure, people move around, but Pakistanis do this with much more regularity and efficiency. They’re everywhere for heavens sake. I’m not talking about the unskilled migrant labour force that works in Kuwait, this is more about skilled people who could easily provide their services.

**I reckon we should all go back and help the country to grow with our knowledge and expertise. **

**Could helping the country not be done from here? what exactly would be your version of “helping” the country. starting grassroots organizations, picking up trash from the streets, establishing industry, teaching in universities? There are many flavours here and not all of them are easy.

You may be surprised to find that there are enough foriegn qualified professionals and professors in Pakistan. **

But the brunt of the people are still uneducated.

By helping the country I mean working for normal companies and organisations there, whatever it may be. Surely there is a considerable brain drain.

**while we are doing absolutely nothing. We are not Pakistanis. **

**Au Contraire

I would ask you to calculate the amount of foriegn exchange sent to Pakistan and how it has helped the country economically. On a micro scale, how many people have helped educate their siblings, or helped other members in teh family financially so they can have a little bit of support to pursue their goals.

I personally know people who were unable to attend the weddings of their siblings, did not see their childhood friends for decades etc, why because they were Pakistani enought o sacrifice being with their friends and families to make a better living and had enough responsibilities on them that we can not begin to understand. **

At the same time, there is an external capital flight, which is a common phenomenon among third world countries.

I may be generalising, but more often than not, when people move out, they do so with entire families. People would be supporting their families even if they were still in Pakistan, so I don’t think it’s a biggie that they’re sending money back home, unless like I said before, they’re unskilled labour from Kuwait.

**Ambition is not the same as greed. **

A lot of the time, ambition is driven by greed.

**Its easy to tell someone to move to Pakistan. **

But it would be ideal.

But have we made it easier in any way. Its a tough job uprooting your family and moving back, with the reverse culture shock and learning to swim in unfamiliar waters.

And what happens to our kids then? The cycle just becomes worse, and our connections whither away.

**
Speaking of selfishness and greed of people. People lived away their entire lives fromparents and siblings because of their responsibilities, aspirations or due to lack of opportunities. These people then moved back to Pakistan, and I am not goign to go into the types of issues they had to deal with, but then since their kids grew up abroad and due to lack of educational facilities their kids left for other countries as well.
**

Lack of educational facilities? Didn’t you say there are lots of universities and an abundance of professors there?

See, you clarified my point. We are so unpatriotic, we do whats best for ourselves, not for the country, unless it’s supporting the cricket team.

Your bet is incorrect because there are people here who would go back. Your good self is among them I suppose.

InshAllah.
But my parents won’t even listen to my plans about going there at the moment.

**would you not believe them because if they say so your previous statement just bites the dust or is it because you have issues with trust. If its the former may I suggest a helpful helping of humble pie, if its the latter I can provide you with contact info of a few counselors. I suppose since you are moving to Pakistan I should get you list of counselors who practice there?

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**

It’s fine thanks. We have a few shrinks in the family.

**anyways have fun in pakistan and when you have changed the country please let us selfish greedy people know. Thank you
(oh by the way that is if you are moving to Pakistan off your free will and are establishign some educational institution, some grassroots reform political campaign or some industry because you see, I doubt that just living in Karachi, and going to eat icecream at the boating basin does much more for the country

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

) **

Yes I will change the country, set up developmental programs, educational institutions, eradicate poverty and corruption, as soon as I learn how to read/write Urdu and become Prime Minister. Then I’ll make sure all those poor little kids can also eat that icecream.

[This message has been edited by cat-woman (edited October 29, 2001).]

18

Originally posted by cat-woman:
**Ok, I’ve regained my composure. **

took some time I see

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**
The numbers of Pakistani emigrants are still incomparable to that of many nations. Sure, people move around, but Pakistanis do this with much more regularity and efficiency. They’re everywhere for heavens sake. I’m not talking about the unskilled migrant labour force that works in Kuwait, this is more about skilled people who could easily provide their services. **

You are forgetting chinese, indians, etc etc. This is always true. if Irish and Italians did not migrate to US in large numbers we would not see huge irish-american or italian american groups.

**
But the brunt of the people are still uneducated. **

and how would my going back increase the literacy there?

**By helping the country I mean working for normal companies and organisations there, whatever it may be. Surely there is a considerable brain drain. **

Why does this brain drain exist, because of a lack of opportunities. Brains not utilised properly are if what use to the nation.

At the same time, there is an external capital flight, which is a common phenomenon among third world countries.

The external capital flight is of Capital of people living in Pakistan

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**I may be generalising, but more often than not, when people move out, they do so with entire families. **

Kids and all would not really contribute much anyways, that is not considered brain drain at that point. not to say kids are dumb or anything

**People would be supporting their families even if they were still in Pakistan, so I don’t think it’s a biggie that they’re sending money back home, **

Sure they will still be supporting, but the level of support changes and the financial pressures ease so others can concentrate on education and growth rather than making ends meet.

**unless like I said before, they’re unskilled labour from Kuwait. **

find out how much people with backgrounds in political science make in Pakistan vs abroad. whoever is sending foriegn exchange is doing a good job.

**A lot of the time, ambition is driven by greed. **

In some cases ambition may be driven by greed, but for that you can be in Pakistan e.g. our corrupt civil sevants and politicians. you dont need to go abroad if its just greed thats motivating you

**And what happens to our kids then? The cycle just becomes worse, and our connections whither away. **

well I have seen families who have been out one generation and have hardly and connections and I know families who have been out for 3 generations but have maintained their connections. It harder but not impossible.

**
Lack of educational facilities? Didn’t you say there are lots of universities and an abundance of professors there? **

Nope I said there is an abundance of professors there. Not that there are many universities. So if I am a professor and there is no university for me to teach it does me no good. There are people with masters degrees who would love to teach but cant because there are no vacancies

**, you clarified my point. We are so unpatriotic, we do whats best for ourselves, not for the country, unless it’s supporting the cricket team. **

Nope u misunderstood my point completely. if you go back to the professor and university example. what can a professor do if there are no universities for him to teach at? become a paan wala? or start his own university? which people have done to some level of success but dont have enough support of people living in Pakistan.

You can be as patriotic or unpatriotic living in or outside of Pakistan as you want. You could be a representative of your people, a lobbying force, an individual ambassador to promote understanding about your country and its people. You can organize charities, political support and pressure groups etc etc.

There has to be a motivation. If there is motivation you could do a lot even by being abroad.

**InshAllah.
But my parents won’t even listen to my plans about going there at the moment. **

so you just have parents wishes holding you back. Now think of an engineer at motorola who has a family and is also helping put his brothers through school. He would rather be in Pakistan by his family but can he really afford to take a gamble?

**Yes I will change the country, set up developmental programs, educational institutions, eradicate poverty and corruption, **

How much have you dont towards your motivations by being abroad. have you supported any political party, have you raised funds for any charity, have you supported any scholarhsips at any university?

There is a lot that Pakistani expatriates can do without being back in Pakistan.

I happen to believe , that the person in my example,..the engineer at motorola, is better for pakistan if he is abroad, being productive, supporitng initiatives from a distance and bringing educational opportunities to his siblings. There are plenty of educated and frustrated people in pakistan who are unable to realize their ambitions, we dont need to add to that

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited October 29, 2001).]

19

In addition to some of valid points Fraudia brought on, there are other facets to Pakistanis' migration to foreign counteries as well.

1- Greed is not a bad thing. As a matter of fact, one of the deriving forces of a successful capitalist system is greed. The means to satisfy the particular greed is what makes it questionable. Greed provides motivation and motivation is what makes a person work hard and earn money to live a prosperous life.

2- Remember Kennedy's quote, "Do not ask what country can do for you, ask what you can do for the country"? Well, that applies to the country which has a promising future and offers a better economic system that can emerge from the very struggle of the hard working masses. Unfortunately, this has not been the case with Pakistan. Pakistani government (or rather 'governments' given the rampant changes in its political and economic strucutre every other year, thanks to our beaurecracy, politicians, and military generals) has yet to offer a safe and prospering prospects for a common person to look forward towards a better economic future. Pakistani system has not been able to market itself to those who have the ability to get out of the situation if they can, to retain them.

I have met quite few people who tried to go back, lived there for a while and then came back after losing their life-savings in failed ventures due to corruption, insecurity, or mere lack of oppurtonities.

If an average person does not even have a hope to establish good living by going back to Pakistan, what's his/her motivation to go back? "It's the economy, stupid" (George Bush Sr. should be able to tell you that exactly). Simple patriotic enthusisam will take you only so far after seeing no results of your effort.

3- Ecomonies of scale is a fundamental principal in economics that calls for the optimal output at a given cost per unit production. After the econmies of scale curve reaches that optimal point, the next production of a unit is not cost effective anymore and the curve starts a downward inclination. Economies of scale exists in almost every aspect of life. It also exists at demographic and population levels.

Imagine having every single foreign Pakistani going back to Pakistan. Do you think there is enough space and resources available to accomodate these masses of people oozing in from every part of the world? I don't think so. Will the money of these people that they will bring in help them settle down and help the economy as well? No it won't, 'cause frankly, nobody would want to bring in the money from foreign counteries to invest in Pakistan to begin with. Why take a greater risk with your life savings? It's just not realistic. In other words, simply moving back to Pakistan is not sufficient. You also need a good financial backbone at national level to sustain it.

Secondly, the amount of money that people will bring in won't have its full utilization at the same time due to corruption, red-tapism, and ineffecies in the system.

Bottom line is, Pakistanis abroad don't have to go back to Pakistan to help their country. They can remain in foreign counteries and invest in business ventures there and supply money to their siblings or relatives (or take financial initiatives themselves) to start profitable business etc from which they themselves benefit and it does have the promising prosperity for the country at the same time but problem is, there are no such prospects that warrant such successful ventures. There are always limits to what degree of patriotism a common person will go for. It's the responsibility of the government, first and foremost, to lure those investments and flow of money before people can take initiative on their own.

20

[quote]
Originally posted by cat-woman:
**Do you all think this is a laughing matter??? This is NO joke peoples!! And I am very serious!!!!

Mr. Optimism, my hat goes off to you! May all these hypocritical overseas settled so-called 'Pakistanis' follow your example. Hear Hear. **
[/quote]

Thankus Thankus aap sab ki duwayein chaiyein jee.....btw it's MISS OpTiMiStIc

Be Bold in what u stand for and careful what u fall for