Hehe Phir sey
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
I have a lot to say as always but i have decided not to say anything this time.
** Dhondo gey humein mulkon mulkon
milney key nahi, nayab hain hum
**
fantastic1 because you dont have a compelling argument that is why
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
afraid of a little debate?
**You are forgetting chinese, indians, etc etc. This is always true. if Irish and Italians did not migrate to US in large numbers we would not see huge irish-american or italian american groups. **
I don’t see the Irish and Italian economies suffering like Pakistan’s, sorry to say. This is more of a ‘west-to-west’ migration, rather than the south-to-north migration that I was referring to. Those Irish and Italian that did migrate were bakers, butchers and farmers, not skilled professionals.
**
and how would my going back increase the literacy there? **
You would add to the number of literate people there no doubt, even if you can’t directly help to educate.
Why does this brain drain exist, because of a lack of opportunities. Brains not utilised properly are if what use to the nation.
It’s not about opportunities. There is always a need for skilled professionals, especially in today’s information age. Opportunities in this field are easy to create I think. Maybe they don’t get paid as much or don’t get to live the lavish lifestyles that their counterparts in other parts of the world are experiencing, that’s why they want to get out.
**The external capital flight is of Capital of people living in Pakistan
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**
True, but at the same time, people overseas are investing their money back where they live. Sorry to say this but they don’t invest their money in Banks and companies in Pakistan.
**Kids and all would not really contribute much anyways, that is not considered brain drain at that point. not to say kids are dumb or anything. **
Oh, so these kids don’t grow up, learn and start working?
Above all else, you see brothers, cousins, uncles and aunties also moving in. I have seen this with my own eyes. And soon the entire extended family is working and living abroad and yes, this is also a part of our culture.
Sure they will still be supporting, but the level of support changes and the financial pressures ease so others can concentrate on education and growth rather than making ends meet.
If a person can afford to work overseas while sustaining his family, I think he can do the exact same thing back home.
**find out how much people with backgrounds in political science make in Pakistan vs abroad. whoever is sending foriegn exchange is doing a good job.
**
What do you mean by ‘make it’ ? You mean ‘make it BIG’? Everyone with an education can earn a minimal amount, sure you might be paid more somewhere else, but it doesn’t mean you can’t make a living with it in Pakistan.
**In some cases ambition may be driven by greed, but for that you can be in Pakistan e.g. our corrupt civil sevants and politicians. you dont need to go abroad if its just greed thats motivating you **
Sure, greed is everywhere. Even those corrupt politicians are sending their kids abroad.
**well I have seen families who have been out one generation and have hardly and connections and I know families who have been out for 3 generations but have maintained their connections. It harder but not impossible. **
Yeah and I still have ‘connections’ with my great grand-uncle in Karachi.
It’s impossible to maintain a close family circle if everyone is scurrying out.
**Nope I said there is an abundance of professors there. Not that there are many universities. So if I am a professor and there is no university for me to teach it does me no good. There are people with masters degrees who would love to teach but cant because there are no vacancies **
My last search on educational institutions in Pakistan gave me numerous results surprisingly, which shows that universities and colleges there are growing, therefore opening the job market for educators.
**Nope u misunderstood my point completely. if you go back to the professor and university example. what can a professor do if there are no universities for him to teach at? become a paan wala? or start his own university? which people have done to some level of success but dont have enough support of people living in Pakistan.
**
Well, I don’t have any specific examples, but why do you need approval in order to do something good.
You can be as patriotic or unpatriotic living in or outside of Pakistan as you want. You could be a representative of your people, a lobbying force, an individual ambassador to promote understanding about your country and its people. You can organize charities, political support and pressure groups etc etc.
Oh ofcourse you can do that! As long as you are not a permanent settler in the foreign country, otherwise what good would that be without actually being able to see the fruits of your efforts. So yeah, as long as you’re not there permanently it’s all good. But most Pakistanis would only give their pinkies to have overseas citizenships/permanent residencies.
**There has to be a motivation. If there is motivation you could do a lot even by being abroad. **
Motivate the SA government to give AID to Pakistan?
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**so you just have parents wishes holding you back.
**
er yeah. I’m 21, haven’t graduated yet and I am a girl.
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**Now think of an engineer at motorola who has a family and is also helping put his brothers through school. **
Yeah so that as soon as his brothers graduate he can call them over!
**
He would rather be in Pakistan by his family but can he really afford to take a gamble?
**
You don’t know that.
**
How much have you dont towards your motivations by being abroad. have you supported any political party, have you raised funds for any charity, have you supported any scholarhsips at any university?
**
The Pakistani population here is miniscule. I am yet to decide who I support and I cannot do this unless I judge the situation there first hand.
**There is a lot that Pakistani expatriates can do without being back in Pakistan. **
Yeah I can wave my jhanda at the next cricket match.
**I happen to believe , that the person in my example,..the engineer at motorola, is better for pakistan if he is abroad, being productive, supporitng initiatives from a distance and bringing educational opportunities to his siblings. There are plenty of educated and frustrated people in pakistan who are unable to realize their ambitions, we dont need to add to that
**
I think he could easily provide his services in Pakistan even if it’s at a lower salary. He spent money getting there - his visa, plane ticket…he had money to do all that. Life is not cheap overseas. If he’s well-educated I reckon he could find work there. Or even with the experience he has received overseas, he would now be a valuable asset overseas.
My neck is sore.
WHy do you have to say so much.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by cat-woman:
I don’t see the Irish and Italian economies suffering like Pakistan’s, sorry to say. This is more of a ‘west-to-west’ migration, rather than the south-to-north migration that I was referring to. Those Irish and Italian that did migrate were bakers, butchers and farmers, not skilled professionals.
That was an example to say that any place which does not offer abundant opportunities has its population emigrate. The sheer number of Chinese people in US is another example of east to west migration, same for indians. We are not facing a unique phenomenon.
**You would add to the number of literate people there no doubt, even if you can’t directly help to educate. **
but what is the real benefit? just a rise in literacy rate by a hundreds of a percentage point, after all its a nation of 150 million isnt it?
**It’s not about opportunities. There is always a need for skilled professionals, especially in today’s information age. **
You write this as IT people are losing jobs left and right in US and Europe. Simply put there are more professionals than opportunities in Pakistan.
**opportunities in this field are easy to create I think. Maybe they don’t get paid as much or don’t get to live the lavish lifestyles that their counterparts in other parts of the world are experiencing, that’s why they want to get out. **
Sadly that is incorrect on all counts. for the cost of living, IT professionals in Pakistan are doing very well too. The opportunities are not easy to create, as you may have noted by the dot com demise. There has to be a good venture with industry support and government programs to support such initiatives.
Lack of ghunda gardi, having to pay a new set of goons of every so often does not help either.
True, but at the same time, people overseas are investing their money back where they live. Sorry to say this but they don’t invest their money in Banks and companies in Pakistan.
I would challenege you that a large number did and still do. After Nawaz Sharif decided to take over people’s foriegn exchange accts, while the politicians and people with connections were moving their own foriegn currency accounts out of Pakistan. Then offering the people a rate lower than real for Rupee accounts.
Why would people want to threaten their livelihood and their savings?
**Oh, so these kids don’t grow up, learn and start working? **
Yeah but kids leaving Pakistan is not considered Brain Drain.
**Above all else, you see brothers, cousins, uncles and aunties also moving in. I have seen this with my own eyes. And soon the entire extended family is working and living abroad and yes, this is also a part of our culture. **
and still there are a huge number of people in the country. Are you thus implying that people who stay in Pakistan are less capable, and less smart that they cant do anything?
If a person can afford to work overseas while sustaining his family, I think he can do the exact same thing back home.
Please refer to exchange rates, cost of living and average pay scales to do your own math here. Your * thinking * does not change the fact.
**What do you mean by ‘make it’ ? You mean ‘make it BIG’? Everyone with an education can earn a minimal amount, sure you might be paid more somewhere else, but it doesn’t mean you can’t make a living with it in Pakistan. **
No by make, I meant how much does anyone earn. Everyone with an education can make a minimal amount sure, but is that minimal amount always enough to sustain your family?
**Sure, greed is everywhere. Even those corrupt politicians are sending their kids abroad. **
and so are many hardworking people who want their kids to have a decent education. lets take a poll here for everyone who studied overseas to see how many have corrupt politicians as parents and how many dont.
**Yeah and I still have ‘connections’ with my great grand-uncle in Karachi.
It’s impossible to maintain a close family circle if everyone is scurrying out. **
That is true. but no different from chinese americans or italian americans who basically have some distant relatives in old countries.
so againnot a unique concept
My last search on educational institutions in Pakistan gave me numerous results surprisingly, which shows that universities and colleges there are growing, therefore opening the job market for educators.
it is growing, now lets refine your search and see how many of these universities are not fly by night con artists. How many of them need a total faculty of 20. Here are a few institutions I want you to look up “canadian school of management” and “preston university” and “greenwich institute” now find out how many faculty members they have. the idea that just because u see a “xyz university” means there are hundreds of jobs for professors is incorrect.
**Oh ofcourse you can do that! As long as you are not a permanent settler in the foreign country, otherwise what good would that be without actually being able to see the fruits of your efforts. **
same good as if i set an endowment at a university and it was helping people even after I die. I am not around to see the results. I am not around to really benefit from it. That is pretty noble now.
**So yeah, as long as you’re not there permanently it’s all good. But most Pakistanis would only give their pinkies to have overseas citizenships/permanent residencies. **
and even those who tell people dont go would either move as soon as they get a chance, or are secure enough financially that they dont really want to leave.
**Motivate the SA government to give AID to Pakistan?
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**
so you argue earlier that you are talking about east-west migration. now you are bringing in south africa?
To give you an example there have been individuals in US and Europe who have helped strike contracts between pakistani and local companies. Off shore development of software is one such example.
**er yeah. I’m 21, haven’t graduated yet and I am a girl.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ahaa.gif
**
and that is supposed to be a better excuse than someone saying, I am an educated guy who needs to take care of his parents as well as help siblings or children. So as much as I want to, realitically speaking I just can not move to Pakistan at this point
**Yeah so that as soon as his brothers graduate he can call them over! **
sure why should anyone suffer if there are no opportunities for them. why increase the number of unemployed, disillusioned, youth?
**The Pakistani population here is miniscule. I am yet to decide who I support and I cannot do this unless I judge the situation there first hand. **
so judge it first hand. or talk to people read up, learn. because whether you are uninformed in Pakistan
Yeah I can wave my jhanda at the next cricket match.
or you can get support from your community to establish a scholarship in some pakistani university. Or donations to new intitutes like Baqai medical or Hamdard university.
**
I think he could easily provide his services in Pakistan even if it’s at a lower salary. He spent money getting there - his visa, plane ticket…he had money to do all that. **
since you dont have a realistic view of job availability in Pakistan, you are not getting the point.
My neck is sore.
WHy do you have to say so much.
try some bengay on the neck, and I have to say a whole lot here because its a topic that I feel strongly about.
Post 9/11 there have been many changes in my thought process at least.
I know a girl from Pakistan who had an MBA, a cushy job in a multinational, but left it all to teach in a school her mother runs in their old neighborhood. True she didn't need the money, but she did sacrifice the prestige many associate with the kind of high profile job she left.
Personally, I'm looking forward to marriage and kids. So maybe when i'm near my mid-life crisis, instead of investing in racing cars, i'll do something similar to what that courageous girl did in her early twenties.
Right now i'm seriously thinking of finding some projects like that and at least help monetarily. Least I can do. I'm scared if we don't, oppressive governments will fund more fanaticsm in our country through strict religiously misinterpreted education to our youth.
Fraudz ap jo bhi samajh lein mujhey koi faraq nahi parta waisey bhi arguing isn’t a good thing anyways. I am crystal clear in my mind abt the issue so don’t need to prove anything.
** Dhondo gey humein mulkon mulkon
milney key nahi, nayab hain hum
**
Bad Bad Cat ,
S
What kind of f-ed up analogy is that??
You F-ed with me Cat??
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I say u Indian b/c large population almost
50millions> are from India or children of them.
Lot of mohajir are born in Pakistan.I was born in U.S. means im white??
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Signs that you would not go back to Pakistan
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If you’ve got into the habit of striking a conversation, beginning with “Nice weather, Hahn!”
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If your toddler son starts addressing you as “Dud”, instead of “Dad”.
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During your last trip to pakistan, if you spend more time on W/C than on your reserved seat, while traveling in train.
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If you actually start washing that deep-fry pan, after preparing Halim,Nihari
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If you start liking Broccoli.
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If you start finding cricket as a `boring’ game but don’t mind watching Baseball or Football on TV.
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If you have developed a liking for free style wrestling and have become a fan of Hulk Hogan.
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If your freezer is full of packaged food.
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If the first sentence that comes out of your mouth, after opening a Christmas gift, is “Thanks a lot, This is exactly what I was looking for and actually planning to buy.”
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If you start saying “interesting” for something which you actually think is “weird”.
aap se bhii khuubasuurat aapake a.ndaaz hai.n
aap kii aa.Nkho.n me.n kuchh mahake hue se raaz hai
Mr Frauds, I'm still bent on my views. One has to look at things from a macroeconomic perspective. The brain drain is bound to have a negative impact on the economy as a whole. If you look at individual achievements, then definitely it would be more desirable to move overseas as it directly benefits the individual and his/her family. I believe that the social costs of migration are enormous and private benefits far exceed that of the public. And this is what my argument is all about - developing the nation as a whole, not just a small proportion. Migration just serves to increase the burgeoning inequality gap.
shoRo karwa diya fraudiye ko. Ab sab bhugto
Cat ,
I was kidding so far but i read your & Fraudia & others input.
I can appreciate your position b/c ui never been to S.Africa.If i was in your position ,may be we all Fraudia ,Roman,etc would be thinking like you .
Look at India ,Do you think India is that much richer ,but still why its Ppl. are in U.S. & .K & all the placeses Pakistanuis are like Mid east s.africa Australia.
But that is niot the make & break argument but it does lend weight to the fact that poor & overpopulated country DONT lose by “expungin” some of its population.It puts less demand on limited jobs ,colleges ,good schools etc in short supply.
Micro economy propounded by Bangladeshi Anisur Rehman & Amartya Sen from same bengal region,takes care of very very poor weworkers farmers & labourers which form as much as 40-60% of work force in South ASia .
Forget about Macroeconomy ,its not applicable in S.Asia .Look at Indonesia Malaysia ,Phillipines,Even India more than Pakistan since the euphoria of Clinton visit in 2000 march ,you wont recognize the depression on the faceses of the same posters like Kmnkl,Infoman,ZZ,Andhra who were jumping at IT boom like they will buy Pakistan individually with the paper money .
Whatever 1/3 was left after the Bust of dot.com in june The 9-11 just sealed the fate of western Macro like a Big Mac in a childs mouth causing choking needing heimlechs manouevers .Its so bad in Stock market ,you cant imagine.With war indefenite ,there is bleakest economic future you can imagine.
Again dont hate me b/c i decided to stay
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
aap se bhii khuubasuurat aapake a.ndaaz hai.n
aap kii aa.Nkho.n me.n kuchh mahake hue se raaz hai
aap se bhii khuubasuurat aapake a.ndaaz hai.n
aap kii aa.Nkho.n me.n kuchh mahake hue se raaz hai
[quote]
Originally posted by fantastic1:
** Fraudz ap jo bhi samajh lein mujhey koi faraq nahi parta waisey bhi arguing isn't a good thing anyways. I am crystal clear in my mind abt the issue so don't need to prove anything.
**
[/quote]
Argument as in bringing up opinions for discussion and to support them is a good thing.
To just bicker and fight is not argument.
When a lawyer argues in a court its a diff thing than when two mohallay walian have a verbal war.
dunno why people have such negative connotations associated with argument.
Is arguing on same thing and keep on repeating the same points again and again and again a good thing? and reaching no where and ending up accusing each other of getting personal a good thing? i don’t think so na iss liey me chup
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
** Dhondo gey humein mulkon mulkon
milney key nahi, nayab hain hum
**
Nope
understanding each others point of view, and assessing one's own position on an issue, and presenting one's own perspective and backing it with valid points an argument.
Getting personal.. is not an argument, that is phadda. Big difference there.
iAM
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/mad3.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/mad3.gif
:MAD3
iF YOU DONT READ & REPLY MY LAST 3 POSTS ,I LL START A HUNGER STRIKE TO BOY COTT cat
posted November 02, 2001 10:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cat-woman:
Mr Frauds, I’m still bent on my views. One has to look at things from a macroeconomic perspective. The brain drain is bound to have a negative impact on the economy as a whole. If you look at individual achievements, then definitely it would be more desirable to move overseas as it directly benefits the individual and his/her family. I believe that the social costs of migration are enormous and private benefits far exceed that of the public. And this is what my argument is all about - developing the nation as a whole, not just a small proportion. Migration just serves to increase the burgeoning inequality gap.
Cat ,
I was kidding so far but i read your & Fraudia & others input.
I can appreciate your position b/c ui never been to S.Africa.If i was in your position ,may be we all Fraudia ,Roman,etc would be thinking like you .
Look at India ,Do you think India is that much richer ,but still why its Ppl. are in U.S. & .K & all the placeses Pakistanuis are like Mid east s.africa Australia.
But that is niot the make & break argument but it does lend weight to the fact that poor & overpopulated country DONT lose by “expungin” some of its population.It puts less demand on limited jobs ,colleges ,good schools etc in short supply.
Micro economy propounded by Bangladeshi Anisur Rehman & Amartya Sen from same bengal region,takes care of very very poor weworkers farmers & labourers which form as much as 40-60% of work force in South ASia .
Forget about Macroeconomy ,its not applicable in S.Asia .Look at Indonesia Malaysia ,Phillipines,Even India more than Pakistan since the euphoria of Clinton visit in 2000 march ,you wont recognize the depression on the faceses of the same posters like Kmnkl,Infoman,ZZ,Andhra who were jumping at IT boom like they will buy Pakistan individually with the paper money .
Whatever 1/3 was left after the Bust of dot.com in june The 9-11 just sealed the fate of western Macro like a Big Mac in a childs mouth causing choking needing heimlechs manouevers .Its so bad in Stock market ,you cant imagine.With war indefenite ,there is bleakest economic future you can imagine.
Again dont hate me b/c i decided to stay
aap se bhii khuubasuurat aapake a.ndaaz hai.n
aap kii aa.Nkho.n me.n kuchh mahake hue se raaz hai
FYI
Dispell Ignorence By Informatics
Posts: 1151
posted November 02, 2001 10:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by FYI:
Cat ,
I was just kidding so far but i read your & Fraudia & others input.
I can appreciate your position b/c i never been to S.Africa.If i were in your position ,may be we all Fraudia ,Roman,etc would be thinking like you .
Look at India ,Do you think India is that much richer ,but still why its Ppl. are in U.S. & U.K & all the placeses Pakistanis are like Mid east ,s.africa ,Australia.
But that is not the make & break argument but it does lend weight to the fact that poor & overpopulated country DONT lose by “PURGING” some of its population.It puts less demand on limited jobs ,colleges ,good schools etc in short supply.
Micro economy propounded by Bangladeshi Anisur Rehman & Amartya Sen from same bengal region,takes care of very very poor weworkers farmers & labourers which form as much as 40-60% of work force in South ASia .
Forget about Macroeconomy ,its not applicable in S.Asia .Look at Indonesia Malaysia ,Phillipines, all had westrn overblown loans.Even India more than Pakistan since the euphoria of Clinton visit in 2000 march ,you wont recognize the depression on the faces of the same posters like Kmnkl,Infoman,ZZ,Andhra who were jumping at IT boom like they will buy Pakistan individually with the paper money .
Whatever 1/3 was left after the Bust of dot.com in june The 9-11 Tragedy just sealed the fate of western Macro like a Big Mac in a childs mouth causing choking needing heimlechs manouevers .Its so bad in Stock market ,you cant imagine.With war indefenite ,there is bleakest economic future you can imagine.
Again dont hate me b/c i decided to stay
More loot… more paisa… more fun… better
health system… better government… more freedom…
overall life is better…
or you can stay in pakistan… and be forever branded
in a pseudo-caste… live in a corrupt government and country…
where there is no middle class… there are
only a rich and a poor class…
things are not well…
SO its quite obvious that man needs to find
greater horizons…
like the saying… the grass is greener on the other side…
well in Pakistan…
the saying is…
as long as there is grass on the other side.
** Mu Hu Hahahahahaha!**
"Quote the Mu,“NeverMu!”
Yeh Duniya Doh Rangi Ajab Iski Baatein
Agar Pyar Maango toh Hasrat Millegi
Chaman Zindagi ke Hazaaron Killeinge
Magar Eik Dil ki Kali Nah Kiley Gi
I have one question. Why do you think that we can only help Pakistan by living in Pakistan?
I have seen people living in other countries who do more for Pakistan than anyone else I know. And I have known, indeed all of us do, many many people who live in Pakistan and suck all its resources through corruption and what not.
So, its not a matter of where you live as a single-dimension argument. Ofcourse you can do more for your country if you are yourself a successful person. If you are struggling yourself, living hand-to-mouth, so to speak, then it doesn’t matter where you live. (Ofcourse, this doesn’t apply to those who want to go into politics). I am talking about those who, for example, help set up education and medical facilities in Pakistan from their hard-earned money in the west.
Being financially successful is not a crime, the key point is to use the financial success effectively. Taking care of yourself and your family ain’t bad. A desire to also help your fellow countrymen is admirable. Both of them don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
You can probably do a lot of good to Pakistan, by training yourself in useful fields and getting experience in modern sciences, and then go back to Pakistan. Or even to live in the west and make a lot of money and help develop institutes in Pakistan from your wealth. Or just by raising decent, patriotic children who understand and identify to their culture while living in the west.
By the way, I strongly believe that there are many decent, educated and outstanding people who live in Pakistan. And we do not need to uproot all our outstanding Pakistanis from western countries and physically bring them back to Pakistan to fill some sort of void. This is an individual decision, and each of us is free to make that choice, since presumably we will only get our lives once.