Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Uh yeah!
Not everyone sits at home like you.
k before i go and act like the devil's advocate... let me say i dont agree with most of hareem's posts.
I think you need to cool down a bit about her... lately i have noticed you are consistantly attacking her in a lot of threads. any perticular reason?
puts his protective armor on and tries to leave the thread as fast as possible
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
^ That answer is not very satisfactory.... Should we be stereotyping women as inferior when it comes to financial matters? No. Should we be stereotyping as only men being the breadwinners? No. A man's credibility should be the same as a woman.
There are men with no financial sense, and there are women with great financial knowledge. The credibility should depend on the person's knowledge (if its about taking financial decisions, if its just about being a witness then any1 can do it man or woman financially sound or not) and not the gender.
Things change, at the time of the Prophet, Men would have been the primary breadwinner so would have more knowledge of financial matter then a woman..
These days, women may be just as involved and thus just as qualified as a man, so that would no longer apply... I think the basic point is that you need qualified people to testify in such cases be they male or female.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
^^ Agreed!
Hareem, you're too funny.
Picoico, good posts!
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
USResident is right that this 4:59 is out of context. Sorry about that.(I read the tafsir)…but there are another ayahs and ahadith that say to follow Messenger(SAW) and rightly-guided people.
Surah Hashr verse 7 “And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.”
Narrated Irbad ibn Sariyah:
AbdurRahman ibn Amr as-Sulami and Hujr ibn Hujr said: We came to Irbad ibn Sariyah who was among those about whom the following verse was revealed: "Nor (is there blame) on those who come to thee to be provided with mounts, and when thou saidst: “I can find no mounts for you.”
We greeted him and said: We have come to see you to give healing and obtain benefit from you.
Al-Irbad said: One day the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) led us in prayer, then faced us and gave us a lengthy exhortation at which the eyes shed tears and the hearts were afraid.
A man said: Apostle of Allah! It seems as if it were a farewell exhortation, so what injunction do you give us?
He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/040.sat.html
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Uh yeah!
Not everyone sits at home like you.
you want me to sit outside like you?
Ok ...I'm nothing in Comparison to you. Happy?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
because women are more emotional than men it distorts their ability to recall certain aspects of a stressful situation, therefore u need 2 witnesses, its nothing to do with their character
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
because women are more emotional than men it distorts their ability to recall certain aspects of a stressful situation, therefore u need 2 witnesses, its nothing to do with their character
you sound right to me.
Don't know what others think of that.
MAY Allah reward you.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
k before i go and act like the devil's advocate... let me say i dont agree with most of hareem's posts.
I think you need to cool down a bit about her... lately i have noticed you are consistantly attacking her in a lot of threads. any perticular reason?
puts his protective armor on and tries to leave the thread as fast as possible
Because I represent everything that she despises in a woman.
I respect her as much as I can (because every human being deserves respect) but she only respects those who share her views.
It defeats the purpose of being a feminist......
...she's not even a true feminist.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
I think there very well may be a difference in my stance and others here; what defines a 'modern' norm to me is a strict function of the state of Muslim societies and my ideal of where they should be, and not necessarily treating a particular non-Muslim society as ideal and advocating a movement towards it (..just to be clear).
Modern norms, then, come from contemporary concerns...my views tend to be utilitarian rather than ideological...
Perhaps, but I would argue that the complexity is in fact fundamental and inherent to large-scale social institutions. We run the risk of restricting ourselves unnecessarily simply, and seeing these institutions fail, to fulfill simple requirements that made perfect sense in more simply contexts.
I am of the view that we attack the problem head-on...aggressively, rather than retreat and reengineer society and it's governing institutions to fit what conservative exigists would think are immutable traits of Muslim societies.
The crux of the problem is how do we interpret; do we infer the characteristics of an "ideal" society from Shariah as it was evolved (and pretty much established by the 10th century), and then have laws enforce these inferences, or do we establish intent and rework laws such that the overall intent is enforced.
History is filled with examples of both, so I'd say this is probably a difficult problem to overcome...
This, as a general principle, is agreed on...but Shariah is filled with cases where laws are elaborated on; ideologues don't like this stance since it doesn't fit into an ideological framework (which always requires claims of completeness and self consistency), but then I made my point of view clear on this above. But the fact is, we do elaborate on laws...for example, what if in the off chance only women witnesses are available?
The letter of the law mentions the case of one man and two women. Now of course, this is a trivial problem for our jurists to get around, but the purpose of this example is to point out that elaboration and tuning of the laws is very much practiced and allowed. Again, look at how we allow ourselves to consume pork if there is a valid medical reason...this is by inference and adherence to an established principle, even though it seemingly violates an immutable law.
Historically, we Muslims have been bad at presuming that those who disagree with our own understandings, or the schools of thought we subscribe to, have ill intentions. Perhaps we should presume that all sides have the best intent at heart...even if we don't t think much of the argument they present. :)
As for the burden angle, I see merit in it, but again I am biased to view things through the lens of history so I prefer to think in terms of "big picture", and how the "big picture" was realized at various points in time. Placating a societal concern is still more convincing to me...
As for the reaction you're getting...I think what is unsaid so far is the fact that scholars of old (say, those in the past 300 years in particular, as an example) are only human and have not been immune to use this very issue as 'evidence' of an inherent weakness or flaw of females. This becomes problematic in the inferences they draw from this...women shouldn't go to school, women shouldn't be managers or be trusted with any intellectual task, etc. I think the reaction against the view is in the inferences that stem from it, even though it's completely unrelated to the issue specifically.
Brother are you a scholar?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
though i have a ver little knowledge about shariah matters....but i also agree with you ...and The Voice ..he has said it precisely in the best possible way.....
i once read about why a woman cannot give a talaq whereas a man can....the answer was replied by Mufti Muhammad Shafi..one of the greatest scholar of pakistan..Muftia azam of pakistan and the caliph of the the greatest scholar of his times...Moulana Ashraf ali Thanvi .....and he gave the reason that similar to above that...women by nature are emotional...delicate..can flow easily in her emotions...so if a talaq right is given to a woman also...then there will be 9 or 10 talaqs in a single day given to a man by her wife !!!!!!!!
and i fully agreed with him...man by nature is not "generally" ruled over by his emotions...thats why to rule a country..womans are not allowed...at some higher public seat ...women are not allowed ..jut because of the above reasons.....
the witness issue is so sensitive that it can put the man on gallows..on 80 kanes.... or can deprive of his hands both for the whole of his/her life..thats whyif women ....which re by nature have more sense of pride..jeaolusy...competition......gheebat....keen a...hasad (Plz..i am not degrading women ) as compare to men...men usually are in "thund" condiion..khooshbassh..no such jealousy factor "usually"as in women...so islam keeps the women in witness behind the men due to this....
look at the incident of yousaf(as)...quran speaks about the women that verily..your tricks are so decietful.....again i say ..i will not specifically pointing towards women...but it the general observation...in males ..in colleges and universities..there is no such great jeolusy factor arise within academics of thier fellows as arise in female students..about thier male or female mates..we all know that...allah know best about his creations...where he or she has a tendency to fall...where she has loop-holes....where hr limitations...thats why the sensitivity of the issue where the person wholelife dignity or honour is at risk..if a woman who has some persoanal grudge with a man for some reason put a blame on him for zina as a result he might be sungsar ...if not then remain shameful for the rset of his whole life...thats why 2 women= 1 men....
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
because women are more emotional than men it distorts their ability to recall certain aspects of a stressful situation, therefore u need 2 witnesses, its nothing to do with their character
I agree it has nothing to do with their character. It has more to do with the character of the people who claim women are so emotional that they can't recall facts. That is sexist garbage.
USResident is right that this 4:59 is out of context. Sorry about that.(I read the tafsir)...........but there are another ayahs and ahadith that say to follow Messenger(SAW) and rightly-guided people.
Yes, we know Islam is interpreted by many to follow the reported sayings of the prophet as if they are God's law. But even the hadith you posted does not take that further to say that a Muslim needs scholars to interpret the religion for them. This fascination with scholars is fascinating.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
because women are more emotional than men it distorts their ability to recall certain aspects of a stressful situation, therefore u need 2 witnesses, its nothing to do with their character
Sir ji, explanations like those were prevalent in our earlier generation of scholars and people and even in the majority today. The reason it was never objected to was because the state of women uptil late 19th century has been kind of confined with few exceptions to fit such explanations. There involvement was in a very few aspects of business life. And such reasons even if wrong assuaged peoples immediate mindset.
Its amazing as time progresses the meanings of Quran become clearer and clearer to those try to really understand it, that is real proof of its eternal message. I don't mean to confront any muslims brothers or sisters here but this line of reasoning about being emotionally unstable is garbage that does not fit into the present day business life. Yes men and women react and think differently but business decisions of either men or women today derive from the same business practices or academics.
As I stated earlier in my reply to Semi, I think I am satisfied with what I understood from the two female witness aspect when taken into proper account.
I am not saying that the Quranic verse is not valid, it is more than valid for someone who understands it correctly. I'm just saying the prevalent explanations that have been offered by our scholars is wrong and conflicts with present day life. It did not conflict in earlier generations because there were no examples to contradict their explanations. Now anyone who believes in Quran can choose between either the verse is wrong or the explanation offered for it has been wrong.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
if u cant come up with an explanation urself then dont try to reject other's theories
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
if u cant come up with an explanation urself then dont try to reject other's theories
Did u bother trying to read my posts before replying?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
I can’t claim to be that 
…just a mere observer in the end, I suppose…
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Yes, we know Islam is interpreted by many to follow the reported sayings of the prophet as if they are God's law.
It is Quran that says ' if you want to follow Allah, follow the Prophet(SAW).
But even the hadith you posted does not take that further to say that a Muslim needs scholars to interpret the religion for them. This fascination with scholars is fascinating.
'He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it.'
Muslims do need Scholars(people who know about Islam more than a common muslim like me).
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Its amazing as time progresses the meanings of Quran become clearer and clearer to those try to really understand it, that is real proof of its eternal message. I don't mean to confront any muslims brothers or sisters here but this line of reasoning about being emotionally unstable is garbage that does not fit into the present day business life. Yes men and women react and think differently but business decisions of either men or women today derive from the same business practices or academics.
As I stated earlier in my reply to Semi, I think I am satisfied with what I understood from the two female witness aspect when taken into proper account.
I am not saying that the Quranic verse is not valid, it is more than valid for someone who understands it correctly. I'm just saying the prevalent explanations that have been offered by our scholars is wrong and conflicts with present day life. It did not conflict in earlier generations because there were no examples to contradict their explanations. Now anyone who believes in Quran can choose between either the verse is wrong or the explanation offered for it has been wrong.
Are you a scholar?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Did u bother trying to read my posts before replying?
did YOU bother to read what i originally posted
let me say it again
because women are MORE EMOTIONAL ( NOT EMOTIONALLY UNSTABLE ) than men, it distorts their ability to recall CERTAIN ASPECTS ( NOT EVERYTHING ) of a STRESSFUL ( NOT IN GENERAL ) situation
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Rightly guided caliphs = scholars 
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
did YOU bother to read what i originally posted let me say it again
because women are MORE EMOTIONAL ( NOT EMOTIONALLY UNSTABLE ) than men, it distorts their ability to recall CERTAIN ASPECTS ( NOT EVERYTHING ) of a STRESSFUL ( NOT IN GENERAL ) situation
Bhai jaan, when you say "emotional" it means someone who overreacts and takes things personally, whereas the ability to not recall events as they are has nothing to do with emotion. Emotions are feelings. Not being able to recall something is not a feeling, its a lack of mental capacity or memory.
On the contrary women tend to last longer in emotionally charged situations compared to men sometimes, men are more resolute in what they pursue compared to women but that is not etched in stone either.
You don't have a clue what you are trying to say. If you had said women are more vulnerable to pressure tactics I can agree with that somewhat but the emotion thing is hogwash. Everyone is susceptible to emotion given that they are subjected to the right pressure tactics. A man may care for his family and one threat to kill one of this family may send him in an emotional tantrum. Similarly accusing a women of unchastity may send her in an emotional tantrum. Everyone has emotional weakpoints.
The whole discussion is about the ability to make business decisions. When you see your shareholders abandoning you, you would be in the same emotional predicament whether you are a man or woman.