Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

What need is there for an explanation, What Allah says in the Quran is what should be implemented.
Who are we to argue with Allah?

42

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Then the natural question is why do we have 39 posts in this thread arguing why the quranic injunction makes sense? Dr Zakir Naik spends his time in a long lecture trying to convince the readers/listeners that there is a great reason why this rule is there. Why not take the cop out right away and say, "we don't need no reason"? :)

43

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

None of what you write is what Islam requires from muslims.

Come back when you have more knowledge on Islam or when you provide criticism do so with evidence.

44

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

The first and foremost reason for Muslims like you and I is to see the instruction of Allah and obey it. Sometimes Allah Himself will give a reason as to why He ordered something. Other times the Prophet(SAW) explains the reasons or benefits for Allah's orders and other times still Allah will not provide a reason that we can understand except that we use our intellects to attempt reaching some of a hikma behind such regulations, our extrapolated understandings could be right or wrong.

In the case of this specific verse Allah does give a reason , the reason is that in case a woman makes a mistake the other woman can help clarify. However, in the case of a man , if he makes a mistake it is purely down to him to be correct. Knowing that an oath means we become liable for what we say the pressure on the man is greater than each woman.

Modern day applicability has nothing to do with it, what makes one feel that there needs to be a modern blind eye cast upon this verse? This is the Quran we're talking about not some fiqh issue.

If anyone can provide from the verse that women are intellectually inferior then I would have to disagree becoz I cannot see the verse says anything about intellect. However, in other places of the Quran we know that men have a degree of authority above their wives. And this makes sense that bcoz men have greater authority and therefore greater responsibility hence it is only right for men to have greater accountability exercised over them.

Dr Zakir Naik has also not said anything about the intellect of the woman. Rather he has explained that the emotional nature of women is a factor that needs to be considered. I agree bcoz the nature of a court case has a huge bearing on the psychlogical and emotional aspects of a witness in testimony.

Therefore I don't believe we need to mess around with the perfect Scripture.

45

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I think rather than being rigid and totally inflexible, God given common sense should be used and applied. In the above specific senario, how can you doubt the financial wisdom of female MBA's or CA's and try to equate them with the average uneducated Joe on the street. It just doesn't make sense.

46

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

You said the capabilities of the men and women are different. In terms of being a WITNESS in financial matters, how are they different. If a female sees that a person has tampered with financial documents, and can testify that the documents were tampered with, AND she has good financial background to have reason to KNOW that the documents were tampered with, then why is her testimony alone not ENOUGH?

The value of a witness depends on not only their intelligence, but also in their accuracy. You might have a financial expert who is giving dubious evidence, but its not because they're stupid or not. There are a LOT of factors involved. Fact is that this ruling was made for a time period in which they didn't have complicated court systems, and complicated financial systems, and "experts" in the financial field. The ruling was for a time where there were no stock brokers, and where you'd need to have some basic idea of how a company works to know why Enron went down.

So for a basic system, and a basic society in which women were held back, there was a simple ruling to ensure some fairness in their primitive "judicial" system. Now countries have far more developed judicial systems, with far more educated people. So things are different and the rule no longer applies.

Just like you don't apply the rule about being fair to your right hand, right? There is no such thing as slavery anymore, so are you going to go get a slave so that you can have a right hand, so that you can be good to her? No! Do any of the rules on slaves and how to treat them apply any more? No. Because we don't HAVE slaves anymore.

Likewise, we don't have retarded women anymore.

But you're honestly making me doubt that now.

Hareem, if anyone asks you to be a witness for anything, I'd strongly recommend you follow the Quran's ruling.

pakistani boys vs western desi boys
47

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

That's exactly I have a problem with. I refuse to blindly follow any scripture or text (from any religion). It should make sense in the current world, otherwise I don't endorse it. It simply doesn't make any sense to have 2 women count as one. Your explanation or any1's explanation that this is done to reduce responsiblity or liability on women, is just an explanation. Does the Quran say that this is the reason? No. You say it, or that Islamic Scholar says it, purely to defend it. You can come up with a thousand interpretations to defend sumthing you just want to defend. So please don't give me "reducing liability on women" as the reason.

From what I understand, the real reason is because in those times men took care of most financial things and women didn't. Times have changed! Today there are a lot of women out there who are super-qualified to handle any situation or accept any liability and they should not be degraded just because they are women!

48

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

On some matters, yes..but on others, we need to think it out. Typically, when we're dealing with laws that are meant to govern human interaction (like financial transactions), much reasoning needs to be done to ensure we're following the spirit as well as the letter of the law.

I cringe at attempts of invoking universalistic traits of women to explain away 2:282, when it is abundantly clear (imho) that the answer lies in history. We don't need to find reasons...:)

Historical context is important; the reason for two female witness to a single male is on the then contemporary fear (rather than any generalized attribute of females, specifically forgetfullness) that the details of the transactions, or what it entailed, would be forgotten. Keep in mind that the purpose of 2:282 is to mandate a *binding *written record/contract for a particular kind of financial transaction. One can't express confidence in a contract if no one is willing to depend on the witness; so in that context the legislation needs to reflect societal realities.

But in other contexts, I would argue that the bureaucracy involved for maintaining records of the volume of transactions of that nature which occur require more sound approaches, with rather complex legal and technological infrastructures...more complex than simply two men or a man and three women. Fraud is more complex, and the nuances of such transactions are so sickening it requires the likes of lawyers to understand them, the witness to such an agreement relying solely on the okay of his or her legal advisors.

Shariah law can in fact be attenuated by governments within reasonable bounds. Thus to say we need to do away with written records of such transactions is clearly rubbish; but to suggest we may not even need witnesses for every single transactions thanks to technological advances, or even advances in bureaucratic processes...not so rubbish, so long as the overall intent of 2:282 is realized.

49

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

In some matters you have to accept what is ordained ..why didn't you ask why Adam was send prior to anyone else.

50

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Thanks Picoico for a nice post ...
I think I understand where my position is different from that of the position of yourself and others on this thread.
I'm coming from the angle of Shari'ah Law in a Shari'ah controlled society, whereas you are coming from the angle of implementing Shar'ah as close as possible to modern norms. Of course we will differ. For example, the fact that contracts are very complicated today is a result of not observing the simplicity of the deen, but now we are in this situation how do we react? My argument is based on the stance that God's Laws change for no one, unless He Himself changes them. That the hikmah of Allah (SWT) is Great and that He has never indicated that women are less intellectual than men. Even if what people read into the ayat suggests that for them.

The essence of Islam and you speak of the spirit of the law, is exactly this purpose I am trying to demonstrate. That as Muslims our greatest concern should be what 'Amaal we are doing. Good or Bad? Are we pleasing Allah (SWT) or are we doing the opposite. What are we going to take with us into the 'aakhira? This way we should be pleased that Allah (SWT) is reducing the burden for women, not angered that He has made us half of a man. This is the misguidance. You see the same thing can be looked at from two angles. The burden angle is the one I am saying is the correct Islamic approach, because we should be concerned with what deeds we are doing that have implications in the hereafter.

A given woman may be very capable and more experienced than a given man in financial matters, why should I have a concern with this? However, even though women can exercise their right to have their burden as a witness reduced, by bringing a friend to co-witness with them in the binding of the contract. How or why this ethic should need to change is beyond me, even if there are hot shot women in finance, it doesn't remove their right to have their burden halved!

Furthermore, men should continue respecting women by giving up their seat on a bus, and this pro-equivocation attitude being passed as equality in the current height of the Western society is not going to change that for me.

51

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Good point. Its like when you say Ladies first, why should men give her that right in the western society. Its about being polite and respectful to her. Or should people argue why are men not be respecting or given that honor as well. Or why do you hold the door open for a lady.

Though if there is a situation where it make sense then I do not see any harm in having a single female witness in a business transaction. People should also realize the business transactions conducted way back when were in a totally different environment not in the comfort of offices or on the phone having a recorded conversation. Techniques for doing everything changes and so do the laws/guidance associated with it. Say if you are buying off the street then maybe you would want another witness with you. In todays society when you get arrested you don't give a statement without having an attorney present, can anyone explain why is it that way. It because you need someone to witness the conversation or transaction. The factors 1400 hundred years ago were different, women were at a greater risk of getting swindled and not being able to prove it. Today that may not be the case but where it is, we can invoke the quranic injunction as necessary.

I have said before the quran came to give guidance not put our brain out of commission. If you do not obey the letter of the law in Quran then it has to be for good reasons and it is allowed as Umar RA demonstrated during the famine by not amputating the hands of theives. For all argument purposes he not implement the Quranic law but he had reason for it, he did not blindly abandon it.

The Quran never claimed to blindly follow but to read it and understand it.

52

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?


I am not criticizing, I am questionning. Unlike you, I don't listen to what someone else's interpretation is and take it as 100% truth just because they are some 'super scholar' or whatever designation it is you give Dr Zakir Naik. He comes with his own agenda and preconceived notions just like everyone else.

Your 'knowledge' of Islam seems limited to other people's interpretation. Now that is a criticism.

So you think every sura in the Quran should be held to its literal meaning from 7th century until the end of time? If so, what do you think bout the suras that justify slavery?

53

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Did someone write this for you?

54

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I think there very well may be a difference in my stance and others here; what defines a 'modern' norm to me is a strict function of the state of Muslim societies and my ideal of where they should be, and not necessarily treating a particular non-Muslim society as ideal and advocating a movement towards it (..just to be clear).

Modern norms, then, come from contemporary concerns...my views tend to be utilitarian rather than ideological...

[quote]

For example, the fact that contracts are very complicated today is a result of not observing the simplicity of the deen, but now we are in this situation how do we react?

[/quote]

Perhaps, but I would argue that the complexity is in fact fundamental and inherent to large-scale social institutions. We run the risk of restricting ourselves unnecessarily simply, and seeing these institutions fail, to fulfill simple requirements that made perfect sense in more simply contexts.

I am of the view that we attack the problem head-on...aggressively, rather than retreat and reengineer society and it's governing institutions to fit what conservative exigists would think are immutable traits of Muslim societies.

The crux of the problem is how do we interpret; do we infer the characteristics of an "ideal" society from Shariah as it was evolved (and pretty much established by the 10th century), and then have laws enforce these inferences, or do we establish intent and rework laws such that the overall intent is enforced.

History is filled with examples of both, so I'd say this is probably a difficult problem to overcome...

[quote]

My argument is based on the stance that God's Laws change for no one, unless He Himself changes them. That the hikmah of Allah (SWT) is Great and that He has never indicated that women are less intellectual than men. Even if what people read into the ayat suggests that for them.

[/quote]

This, as a general principle, is agreed on...but Shariah is filled with cases where laws are elaborated on; ideologues don't like this stance since it doesn't fit into an ideological framework (which always requires claims of completeness and self consistency), but then I made my point of view clear on this above. But the fact is, we do elaborate on laws...for example, what if in the off chance only women witnesses are available?

The letter of the law mentions the case of one man and two women. Now of course, this is a trivial problem for our jurists to get around, but the purpose of this example is to point out that elaboration and tuning of the laws is very much practiced and allowed. Again, look at how we allow ourselves to consume pork if there is a valid medical reason...this is by inference and adherence to an established principle, even though it seemingly violates an immutable law.

[quote]

That as Muslims our greatest concern should be what 'Amaal we are doing. Good or Bad? Are we pleasing Allah (SWT) or are we doing the opposite. What are we going to take with us into the 'aakhira?

[/quote]

Historically, we Muslims have been bad at presuming that those who disagree with our own understandings, or the schools of thought we subscribe to, have ill intentions. Perhaps we should presume that all sides have the best intent at heart...even if we don't t think much of the argument they present. :)

As for the burden angle, I see merit in it, but again I am biased to view things through the lens of history so I prefer to think in terms of "big picture", and how the "big picture" was realized at various points in time. Placating a societal concern is still more convincing to me...

As for the reaction you're getting...I think what is unsaid so far is the fact that scholars of old (say, those in the past 300 years in particular, as an example) are only human and have not been immune to use this very issue as 'evidence' of an inherent weakness or flaw of females. This becomes problematic in the inferences they draw from this...women shouldn't go to school, women shouldn't be managers or be trusted with any intellectual task, etc. I think the reaction against the view is in the inferences that stem from it, even though it's completely unrelated to the issue specifically.

55

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

What is written are my views...you should have no problem with this.

56

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Wrong.....I'm not allowed to make interpretations. This is the job of a mujtahid.

No.

Bring those surahs that justify slavery.

57

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

I have never had a chance to discuss anything with you before but I must say very very nicely expressed.

58

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?


Well there you go. That pretty much sums it up. You rely on others to tell you about God instead of trying to find him yourself. Anyone can memorize or mouth words, but how can you *really *know God if it is only through others, and not your own reading, praying and studying?

That is the same position the Catholic Church held during the Dark Ages and one of the reasons that time period in the West is known as the Dark Ages.

If someone isn't smart or enlightenend enough to read God's words without the historical, cultural and traditional influences that come with following religion as per the interpretation of others, than one of two things:
1) it's not the perfect and complete message, or
2) it's not being followed correctly

59

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Why do you go to school, college or universities?
Why can't you study at home by yourself?
Do you argue with your teacher that he/she don't know more than you know?

60

Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?

Do I argue with a physics instructor? No.
Would I argue with a math or science teacher? Probably not.
But would I question or argue with a philosphy, ethics or religious instructor? You betcha.

I am not required to know, study or implement quantam physics in my life. But I feel it is my obligation as a spiritual creature of God to question, study and implement a spiritual life.

To learn about God and spirituality, I have read the scripture of several religions. I read the works and comparative studies of great philosophers and theists, modern and historical, to come to my own conclusions. So if you believe there is ONE book of God, AND it happens to be the COMPLETE, PERFECT and ACCURATE word of God, you shouldn't have any problem realizing God's message without the interference and interpretations of others. It's perfect and complete, what more could one want?

*konfused*