Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
I don't agree.......Prove it to me that there are more men than women with no fanancial sense .
1400 years ago in a male dominated tribal society or in today's modern world? You'll get very different answers.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
1400 years ago in a male dominated tribal society or in today's modern world? You'll get very different answers.
I need proof. thats not a proof ,...that not even a statement.
Are you telling me to go and do a survey sort of thing.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Do you really need "proof" that women today have far, far more financial sense then the uneducated women of the patriarchal societies of 1400 years ago?
I don't think anyone can argue that there are more men today than women with no financial sense. But you can't say "men have financial sense and women don't". Women are now equally educated and if anything have more control of the checkbook than the man.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Do you really need "proof" that women today have far, far more financial sense then the uneducated women of the patriarchal societies of 1400 years ago?
Its not about today's woman or yesterday's woman or tommorrow's woman.
Its about the difference between Capabilities of a man and Capabilities of a woman.
I don't think anyone can argue that there are more men today than women with no financial sense
so you agree.
.
But you can't say "men have financial sense and women don't".
I'm not saying that....even no one is here saying that.
Women are now equally educated and if anything have more control of the checkbook than the man.
Again its not about who's more educated, its about different natural capabilities of men and women.
.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
I don't agree.......Prove it to me that there are more men than women with no fanancial sense .
In fact I NEVER tried to say that men are inferior than women, you totally misinterpreted my sentence.
All I tried to say was If given equal opportunities for education/intellectual development, women can never be inferior to men, since a women whom your scripture, it seems, declares that she is less intelligent **"in all intellectual cases" **and thus requires two witness instead of one man.
Probably, your self-proclaimed prophet, while "revealing" this verse was only aware about women in Saudi Arabia, since during Pagan time of arabia women were nothing but an object of physical pleasure, without any say in social matters. I have also read that they were paraded naked in Makka by Pagan Arabs. This might just provide a hint of Mens mentality towards women during the time of these great "revealations", moreover all scriptures are revealed through men, don't you agree?
Since thread is about women being inferior to men intellectually, so can you prove this through some "scholarly" knowledge of your religion? (Tell you in advance, I will not believe that story of Adam and Eve walking in the Garden and Eve getting tempted for some kind of fruit since that has nothing to do with intellectual development of a woman)
Latsly are you a woman?:D
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
so you agree.
No, I vehemently disagree because I would apply the same thing to men and women.
[quote]
Again its not about who's more educated, its about different natural capabilities of men and women.
[/quote]
Show me proof men have natural capabilities to handle finances that women don't.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
In fact I NEVER tried to say that men are inferior than women, you totally misinterpreted my sentence. All I tried to say was If given equal opportunities for education/intellectual development, women can never be inferior to men, since a women whom your scripture, it seems, declares that she is less intelligent **"in all intellectual cases" **and thus requires two witness instead of one man.
Actually, you're misinterpreting the *Ayah(verse).....*It does'nt mention intellect nor does it mention this to be the case in every situation.
Instead all I understand from what you've written is that you have a derranged belief regarding the Quran. Also you talk about equal opportunities being the only factor in capabilities when there is plenty of statistical and scientific proof to suggest otherwise. I say again Allah knows His creation better than we know ourselves. But remember this I don't think it has anything to do with intellect.
Probably, your self-proclaimed prophet, while "revealing" this verse was only aware about women in Saudi Arabia, since during Pagan time of arabia women were nothing but an object of physical pleasure, without any say in social matters. I have also read that they were paraded naked in Makka by Pagan Arabs. This might just provide a hint of Mens mentality towards women during the time of these great "revealations", moreover all scriptures are revealed through men, don't you agree?
More hate speech.........This undermines anything what you have to say regarding this matter.
Since thread is about women being inferior to men intellectually, so can you prove this through some "scholarly" knowledge of your religion? (Tell you in advance, I will not believe that story of Adam and Eve walking in the Garden and Eve getting tempted for some kind of fruit since that has nothing to do with intellectual development of a woman)
How can I prove to you that of a strawman that you have assumed into being? If the premise itself is misguided then proving it would be aimless and unproductive as you would end up trying to prove something that is not true.
This is how I see it..................being a witness is no honour. It is a great responsibility with an oath that makes the believer tremble with fear of being incorrect. The shame of which would be unbearable and the punishment of which can be seen in this world and the hereafter especially for providing false evidence.
I say, who wants to be a witness? Shaykh Syed Muhammad Al Yaqoobi from Damascus has said: ' when he was young he would walk with his father outside and he would look around at things going on , his father said to him , ' Keep your eyes in front of you, lest you shall be held accountable as a witness for those things that do not concern you' .
Therefore Allah has reduced the pressure for the female witness so two of them can compliment each other on a matter in order to determine the truth and minimize the chance of being wrong and hence minimize the chance of being sinful.
As you can see there is nothing about intellectual capabilities in this and it reflects what Allah has written in the Quran to a higher degree.
Yes, I'm a woman.:)
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
. Show me proof men have natural capabilities to handle finances that women don't.
i did'nt claim that men are better than women......It was Vedic-Intellect who wrote that women have more logic sense and financial knowledge than men.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
It doesn't work that way.
In fact, claims of "universality" (i.e. all times and all places) is a modern ideological projection onto Islam, and I see no concern on the part of early scholars to project this idea. This seems to be a response to Western claims that deomcracy etc. are "universal".
So, to proclaim a verse not applicable is not neccessarily something that should raise eyebrows...we do it with slavery all the time.
so true.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Its not about today's woman or yesterday's woman or tommorrow's woman.
Its about the difference between Capabilities of a man and Capabilities of a woman.
so you agree. .
I'm not saying that....even no one is here saying that.
Again its not about who's more educated, its about different natural capabilities of men and women. .
Go to the most prestigious and advanced business university programs - you'll find them FILLED with women. In some programs, you'll actually see more women than men. Take a walk down Wall Street. Big name financial companies - and you'll see lots of women there. Are you telling that they don't have the same capabilities as the men working in those offices do? If not, then how do you think they got there?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Go to the most prestigious and advanced business university programs - you'll find them FILLED with women. In some programs, you'll actually see more women than men. Take a walk down Wall Street. Big name financial companies - and you'll see lots of women there. Are you telling that they don't have the same capabilities as the men working in those offices do? If not, then how do you think they got there?
PyariCgurya please read post #27 to get an understanding of my view.
As for abilities, men and women are different, but intellectually, I have never said, whether a woman is more, or less or even the same. However, I think Allah (SWT) Knows Better, but I would think men and women have equal intellects.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Hareem, I thought you were a religion-obsessed person who has turned your back to rationality. But now, by posting selected parts of my previous posts to make me look bad, you've proved that you are also an immature retard and I will not waste any time trying to debate with you.
To the others, my post regarding "dressin these inferior females" was a joke, it was sarcasm, regarding people going nuts about girls wearing jeans and how it is haraam, I was simply poking fun at those dimwits. My other posts make it very obvious I'm a strong supporter of women rights.
I don't understand why you are trying to judge ALL men or ALL women's financial knowledge or capabilities and stereotype them? How hard is it to understand that a person's financial knowledge/capabilities depend on their education, social background and upbringing maybe. It does NOT depend on their sex. GET IT !!
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
i did'nt claim that men are better than women......It was Vedic-Intellect who wrote that women have more logic sense and financial knowledge than men.
No! I didn't say women had more logic sense and financial knowedge that women in general. I said you will find MANY women out there who have more finanical sense than men.
Argh, Calm down Vedic, no point talking to Hareem, [Edit].
[Note from Moderator]
Really. Calm down. No need for useless name-calling
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Vedic_intellect,
hareem01 is 'she' and not 'he' as far as i know.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
^^ that makes it worse.. a woman degrading her own sex by saying all women are naturally inferior regarding financial issues...
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
Vedic_intellect,
hareem01 is 'she' and not 'he' as far as i know.
hi ssingh ..how're you doin.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
^^ that makes it worse.. a woman degrading her own sex by saying all women are naturally inferior regarding financial issues...
The verses that require two women for one man do not degrade women, as people have misunderstood that the reason for having two women is in any way related to their intellectual levels. I don't think nor does the Quran say that women have lower intellectual levels to men.
Now please read below a copy of the post #27.
This is how I see it..................being a witness is no honour. It is a great responsibility with an oath that makes the believer tremble with fear of being incorrect. The shame of which would be unbearable and the punishment of which can be seen in this world and the hereafter especially for providing false evidence.
I say, who wants to be a witness? Shaykh Syed Muhammad Al Yaqoobi from Damascus has said: ' when he was young he would walk with his father outside and he would look around at things going on , his father said to him , ' Keep your eyes in front of you, lest you shall be held accountable as a witness for those things that do not concern you' .
Therefore Allah has reduced the pressure for the female witness so two of them can compliment each other on a matter in order to determine the truth and minimize the chance of being wrong and hence minimize the chance of being sinful.
As you can see there is nothing about intellectual capabilities in this and it reflects what Allah has written in the Quran to a higher degree.
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
So women can handle child birth, the demands of an overbearing husband, raising mulitple children and running a household with little to no help from the husband and take care of all the other responsiblities that come with womanhood, but they need to have another woman to take pressure off them for being a witness? Wouldn't it just be 2 womens' account of the same thing or is one woman going to 'help' the other to remember? Or just make it more credible? Or because of the male dominated societies of the past, is it just that it takes the words of more than one woman to carry the weight of a man's word?
If we are going to stereoptype, women are more prone to notice details and remember things than men. They, if anything, make better witnesses.
So intellectural inferiority isn't it. The knowledge of financial matters isn't it. The stress of being a witness isn't it. What is it?
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
hahah ^^ that still dont make sense man.. ahh im going to stop wasting my time.. as sum ppl pointed out to me before, there is no point..
Re: Why are two woman witnesses, equivalent to only one male witness in Islam ?
While I generally avoid getting into debates about Quranic injunctions, I am fairly disappointed that no one has yet provided any convincing reply why in modern day society, two women witnesses should be deemed equal to one man, when it comes to a financial transaction. The whole argument that being a witness is a huge responsibility so one rather not be a witness at all, is neither here nor there. I am sure there is a good explanation out there, I just don't believe it has been posted here in this thread, yet.