Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
For those who won't accept evolution because they are unable to understand its relation with Adam/Eve incidence: Do you believe all humans are product of incest? Because their children would be obviously siblings.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
^ I’m living by that at the moment, but I feel like I need to start figuring out things, there’s far too many things on the 'doesn’t-make-sense-will-figure-it-later list. :hinna:
Interesting discussion guys. I’ve skimmed through it, will come back after exams to read it in-depth and try to get to grips with it. 
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
"Compelling reason can never convince blinding emotion." - Richard Bach
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Peace GIDSA
I know what to call you now heheh! ... Look I guess you feel the thermodynamics subject is laid and buried but it is not. I want you to keep that burner going a little longer. And please when you come in with pseudo science and call it science that is insulting for this thread. The whole thread is about the lack of science in evolution from the supporters of evolution. When they are under the microscope i.e on trial about whether they are or are not scientific in their approach then we should refrain from saying "science says this or that" we should say "evolutionists say this or that" until a point when it is accepted that something they have done is truly scientific.
Now evolution is an array (a toolbox) of various ideas that are intended to build the picture of gradual species development and proliferation. Some of these tools are ratified science some are not. Life from the common ancestor of life. When I spoke about entropy - you took it to be a thermodynamics rooted concept. As if! Entropy is a tool used by thermodynamics. It has a holistic meaning which is very real as well. When you were talking about open and closed systems - using a template answer for a different question - you failed to see what it was I was stating about entropy. (BTW my first degree is in Chem Eng) ...
I was never asking why entropy increased to give the order in the universe ... this was never my question. I asked why in the same place - i.e. Earth which happens to be a dynamic open system that allows things to decrease in entropy ... that for the same things we have never seen inorganic material become organic and never seen organic material become living ... to site the consumption of organic material is fallacious to this question. The question is about life not about living entities consuming food. Why and how is it that diwana understood my point? I mean it could not have been a lack of clarity in my words ... Clearly we see matter disintegrates - the natural order of things is to seek disorder not order. Yet evolution does not seek that end ... Why? This is holistic use of entropy so please stop using the thermo argument it is not invited here.
Another fact is that I am so spurned by this topic and how we have allowed the atheistic evolutionary theory take root even in our minds as Muslims let alone the modern scientific and engineering audience that I feel it necessary that Muslims partake in organising detailed research to see and cross-examine the findings of the evolutionists in an unbiased and fully disclosed research initiative. I am a member of an organisation and hope to contact a couple more so we can get like minds together to fund research in this area. Yes ... and intend to even hire non-Muslim phD students to prove our unbiased approach. Furthermore we will deem it necessary that people take courses in critical thinking and advanced logic because it seems that pseudo science is only taking root because we have forgotten how to discern proof from evidence.
As someone said earlier science does not prove things (it just lends evidence to support) in order to prove something it needs to actually disprove something else. When it disproves all possible avenues bar one then it follows that one must be the fact that describes the science that we are trying to pinpoint.
It is a shame that evolution has become such an emotional topic for evolutionists and hence they are blinded from compelling reason, which is that evolution is only a theory. It is not proven and on closer examination it is even implausible to my view. If anything delving deeper in evolution is convincing more and more that Allah (SWT) truly has all wisdom and power to Create and do so as - Kun fa ya kun ... Be and it is. Immediately in full form.
Rather more metaphysically I hold that every second every subtlety of a moment is the act of the whole universe being Created, Destroyed and re-Created slightly differently to represent movement and change. All of this is within the capacity of Allah (SWT) ... The universe is not a game of bowls where something is set in motion and we see what it hits ... rather the very fabric and substance of any such bowl and the medium that it travels in is constantly being sustained by the Power of Allah (SWT) ... Evolution cannot approach this belief - it can come no where near it.
Any pattern we see even the ones with scientific backing is what we call nature or events that take place in the natural order - but I say the natural order itself is a slave to the Will of Allah (SWT) and needs permission to execute what it has been destined to execute. I hope this is getting understood.
Then we have the jokes from the jokers - "do you believe the humans are a product of incest" - Gosh - As if we were animals following the pathways of evolution we would in any way be saved from incest ...
Finally to clarify I am not against evolution blindly - I am very much keen to learn about the mechanism of life - but I am not prepared to sell my scientific methods for another belief system one that is amoral - I already have a perfectly fine belief system and that is Islam - and I chose it because it fits and is moral to the highest degree. If there comes PROOF for evolution in my life time then I will accept it until that point I will be sceptical towards it I will not give it the benefit of the doubt and I urge all Muslims to do the same. Evolution is not needed for our betterment rather in the current form portrayed by the current people ... it is the pandoras box for everything other than our betterment.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
I have a question for you GIDSA (and even Topo if she has similar ideas) since you are pointing at evolution being a God directed phenomenon.
How do you reconcile that belief with the commonly accepted ideas of Adam and Eve, them being expelled from heaven for disobeying God etc. If we take Adam and Eve to truly be the first humans and also evolution to be true, what happened to Adam's immediate ancestors? Were they not subject to this test of life which ultimately is supposed to end in hell or heaven? If we cannot explain this, then do we relegate these things in the Quran to the figure of speech bucket?
I'm not on one side or another although I do incline toward evolution...well because the facts are there...at least within each species.
good question. Just goes to prove that neither campers know for sure, can't know for sure.
The Adam & Eve story (with or without the Lilith varation) was inherited from old old genesis. Judaism, Christianity and Islam therefore do not represent 3 affirmations of that story but rather are simply the duplication of each other in this respect.
In the same token, the so called scientific explanation of evolution is probably the most unscientific of theories, looking at the number of leaps of faith it demands of your mind!
Are people therefore ready to reject both of these and look for other theories? That would be require an open mind!
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
When I spoke about entropy - you took it to be a thermodynamics rooted concept. As if! Entropy is a tool used by thermodynamics. It has a holistic meaning which is very real as well. When you were talking about open and closed systems - using a template answer for a different question - you failed to see what it was I was stating about entropy. (BTW my first degree is in Chem Eng)...
The use of the Second Law of Thermodynamics/Entropy was an approach applied by Christian ID proponents. We as Muslims need to distance ourselves from approaches where we use their texts as references for our discussions. That does nothing but make us look like we're grasping at straws. They are hollow arguments. I used the same answer for both your questions because that is the only logical answer. The order and disorder argument and entropy is actually a dud argument.
I was never asking why entropy increased to give the order in the universe ... this was never my question. I asked why in the same place - i.e. Earth which happens to be a dynamic open system that allows things to decrease in entropy ... that for the same things we have never seen inorganic material become organic and never seen organic material become living ... to site the consumption of organic material is fallacious to this question. The question is about life not about living entities consuming food. Why and how is it that diwana understood my point? I mean it could not have been a lack of clarity in my words ... Clearly we see matter disintegrates - the natural order of things is to seek disorder not order. Yet evolution does not seek that end ... Why? This is holistic use of entropy so please stop using the thermo argument it is not invited here.
To use the order and disorder argument while at the same time removing entropy from the equation does not make sense. Why would you choose to apply one statement and reject another statement that is a conclusion of that law? Order to Disorder and Lower Entropy to Higher Entropy. You either take both or you reject both arguments.
So taking the above on board we observe order from disorder in nature too. I'm using very cliched examples here but things like lighting and sand dunes? They are orderly things created when disorderly elements/compounds arrange themselves in a particular form or interact in a particular form. Voila! Order from disorder in nature. The simple fact is we are not a closed system and hence this whole order and disorder argument is void because it occurs aplenty all around us. So why can't it occur with living organisms (Humans included)?
Evolution is an explanation of observable phenomena. I have mentioned in my previous posts it is a combination of different variables.Again it will not do any good to regurgitate the definitions of evolution/natural selection. Again I have explained how order comes from disorder in nature. So really, there is no violation of any laws here too (Even though some wish to introduce this argument consistently).
It is a shame that evolution has become such an emotional topic for evolutionists and hence they are blinded from compelling reason, which is that evolution is only a theory. It is neither proven and on closer examination it is even implausible to my view. If anything delving deeper in evolution is convincing more and more that Allah (SWT) truly has all wisdom and power to Create and do so as - Kun fa ya kun ... Be and it is. Immediately in full form.
I'm surprised you do not know the meaning of the term theory in scientific terms. To become a scientific theory, an idea must be thoroughly tested, and must be an accurate and predictive description of the natural world. Evolution is therefore a scientific theory. Sure enough theories can be adapted over time but as long as the evidence is stacked in their favour they are true and they do not waver.
I'm sure you what explains the phenomenon of objects falling down. The gravitational theory. Its an ubiquitous phenomena and you believe it I'm sure and yet its still labelled as a theory. People might as well stop believing in gravity.
If there comes PROOF for evolution in my life time then I will accept it until that point I will be sceptical towards it I will not give it the benefit of the doubt and I urge all Muslims to do the same.
There is overwhelming evidence that suggests evolution occurs, the evidence is stacked in favour of evolution. We cannot deny it. It is not a weapon of the devil nor atheists. It is simply an observable occurrence. There are are transitional fossils, variation occurs all around us, we have evolutionary leftovers in various species, etc...
It does not go against the Islam (Quran & Hadith). Sure Allah knows best though. I have faith in Him and I hope things become clearer for all sides.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
good question. Just goes to prove that neither campers know for sure, can't know for sure.
The Adam & Eve story (with or without the Lilith varation) was inherited from old old genesis. Judaism, Christianity and Islam therefore do not represent 3 affirmations of that story but rather are simply the duplication of each other in this respect.
In the same token, the so called scientific explanation of evolution is probably the most unscientific of theories, looking at the number of leaps of faith it demands of your mind!
Are people therefore ready to reject both of these and look for other theories? That would be require an open mind!
La Parisienne Peace
The Muslims are bound by the belief in Adam (AS) and Eve (AS) ... It is not for us to reject what is not provable. And it does not mean what is not provable does not hold the same value to us as something known for sure. Our beliefs much of which are not known for sure hold sometimes more importance to us as people.
Islam caters for this position. We are rewarded not for what we know for sure, we are rewarded for our belief in Him and in His revealed scripture in His Prophet who came as a mercy to us ... The moment we get certainty then it is too late - there is no more faith required. However our faith does not tell us to abandon reason and rather if we find something that explains something to us about scripture then this can only strengthen our faith, because then it provides a sense of tangibility to our beliefs. What we look for is not something to contradict our beliefs in Adam and Eve, but something that can help us understand them.
Someone once said to me we can only believe in Islamic scripture 100% because to great extents we preserve them and don't let them change ... However science makes ongoing changes and sometimes even U-turns ... so what we should do is hold tight and grab that science that seems to fit and leave it if it doesn't. Take it with a pinch of salt and abandon the science when the need arises ... but never to leave scripture. This means we take it as we find it ...
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Someone once said to me we can only believe in Islamic scripture 100% because to great extents we preserve them and don't let them change ... However science makes ongoing changes and sometimes even U-turns ... **so what we should do is hold tight and grab that science that seems to fit and leave it if it doesn't. **Take it with a pinch of salt and abandon the science when the need arises ... but never to leave scripture. This means we take it as we find it ...
Holding tight to scripture is great. But there is no guarantee that your interpretation of scripture is correct.
Just like science, the interpretation of scriptures also changes (and evolves) with time.
Rigid people refuse to change their interpretation of scriptures unless they are left with no other way.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
@psyah: "However our faith does not tell us to abandon reason"....
that's good. So it's ok to apply reason. When you apply reason, it contradicts blind acceptance, especially in certain matters, the Adam & Eve thing being one of them.
mind you, almost similar dilemna exists with the so called scientific theory of evolution as well.
Hence I believe the need for some open minded search that goes beyond these two theories.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
wow 14 pages.. :k:
why they should not, their whole founding pillars will be doomed if they accept evolution …
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
The thread has gone out of control and sanity from the moment where Quranic verses or hadith were quoted. (Without ANY understanding or explanation by the way- Just like queer brought a link )
I tried to avoid falling in to that trap (as the wrong choice of title wanted) throughout this thread by not giving religious touch to the arguments for a reason.
I have said, even science is enough to refute this baseless theory. No need this bring religion here for this purpose.
**Let’s have science versus science battle, to settle the issue.
**el topo, the world did not have to know. :no:
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Holding tight to scripture is great. But there is no guarantee that your interpretation of scripture is correct. Just like science, the interpretation of scriptures also changes (and evolves) with time.
Rigid people refuse to change their interpretation of scriptures unless they are left with no other way.
Peace khoji
The key is exactly that, but I disagree this is called rigidity this is called being sincere with your beliefs.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
@psyah: "However our faith does not tell us to abandon reason"....
that's good. So it's ok to apply reason. When you apply reason, it contradicts blind acceptance, especially in certain matters, the Adam & Eve thing being one of them.
mind you, almost similar dilemna exists with the so called scientific theory of evolution as well.
Hence I believe the need for some open minded search that goes beyond these two theories.
Peace La Parisienne
That may seem to hold water but you see there are other forms of reason that you are not considering. Reason in the content matter of a statement is subject to open minded searching that is fine ... however when it comes to the Qur'anic scripture our reason to accept it is:
a) Prophet Muhammad (SAW) never told lies
b) The Qur'an is the Word of God (all of it) and RasoolAllah (SAW) narrated it to us.
c) We trust it has been transmitted correctly because of the verses being tawatur (fully referenced and transmitted)
Then if there are any subjects matters outside our immediate understanding we accept them without understanding ... this is the reasoning behind the Qur'anic verses acceptance.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
The key is exactly that, but I disagree this is called rigidity this is called being sincere with your beliefs.
Interpretations have nothing to do with beliefs. They have to do with changing times and evolving knowledge.
Rigidity makes a mockery of religion. It is this static rigidity which makes some people call TV a devil box, which makes them continue to consider taking pictures against religion, etc.
It's amazing that you call it "being sincere with your beliefs". To me such people have weak faith.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Interpretations have nothing to do with beliefs. They have to do with changing times and evolving knowledge. Rigidity makes a mockery of religion. It is this static rigidity which makes some people call TV a devil box, which makes them continue to consider taking pictures against religion, etc.
It's amazing that you call it "being sincere with your beliefs". To me such people have weak faith.
Peace khoji
My stance to interpretation is to use the holy scriptures as the basis for truth and then to view scientific findings and facts through the lens of those scriptures. I would not ever put science first and certainly would not put theories of science or alleged science before my scripture.
So when it comes to interpretation I am obliged to do this interpretation in a certain order.
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
OK like DIWANA said lets leave religion out of it!
Scientific Scholars have stated the steps of evolution like this:
1) Single cell life formed by accident in the primordial soup of protiens
OK seems plausible
2) These microbes became worms so they could crawl around by feeling their through the dirt.
OK seems plausable again
3) Worms acquired Eyes and became swimming fish!
Now this is such a huge step for any life form that only knows the sense of touch to all of a sudden acquire seeing eyes that require a very large brain...................this is not at all feasable even by Scientific explaination!
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
OK like DIWANA said lets leave religion out of it!
Scientific Scholars have stated the steps of evolution like this:
1) Single cell life formed by accident in the primordial soup of protiens
OK seems plausible
2) These microbes became worms so they could crawl around by feeling their through the dirt.
OK seems plausable again
3) Worms acquired Eyes and became swimming fish!
Now this is such a huge step for any life form that only knows the sense of touch to all of a sudden acquire seeing eyes that require a very large brain...................this is not at all feasable even by Scientific explaination!
“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”
(Charles Darwin)
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
can you disprove evolution?
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
Peace philosophy
That is a vital question. In order for me to disprove evolution I would need to formulate a test that you agree with ... Can you help me provide that test?
Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
^why would i do that? i don't want to disprove it. you don't accept it, so you should build credibility by disproving it.